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She wasn't being sarcastic in MC, and I know she was expressing real pain. I find it as irrational as many of you do, but I don't doubt that she feels it and it's real to her.

To be fair to her, I also asked her not to wear a dress to work anymore that I find to be a little too sexy for work. It's not overly short, but it is shorter than I think is work appropriate and I asked her not to wear it anymore. I think this, more than the coffee thing, is what prompted her feelings of "I feel like I can't be myself or else you won't feel safe". Which I still find irrational and a bit selfish - I'm not asking her to wear a burka, just to take one dress out of the work rotation. I find her to be incredibly sexy in this dress and I don't like thinking of other men at her office enjoying her in it the same way that I do.

My thoughts are that she is really struggling with the crux of "the work", that she so badly wants to find her own voice, her own self-worth, and be the source of her own validation, but yet she can't help but still seek it from others. Or somehow that if she accepts the reality that a man may have feelings for her more than just collegial, that would then make any of his legitimate feelings of respect or admiration for her meaningless. And then I think, "So what? Who cares even if they are meaningless. Your self worth should come from you! That's "the work"!"

It's terrible that women have to live in a world where they must always second guess a man's motives and be on alert for predators and all of the other shitty shit that women have to deal with, but wishing it weren't so doesn't make it any less real. It's like my wife thinks that by accepting that a man MIGHT have other motives and thus setting boundaries appropriately, it somehow invalidates her worth as a woman. I think she resents that she can't go on a 'harmless' walk for coffee with this male co-worker, because not doing so in her world says "this man only values me for my body" whereas going on the walk says "we are equals, he values me as a person."

And I say, the walk says nothing of major importance one way or the other, it's simply a boundary I'm not comfortable with her crossing. And she totally gets that. The lying and minimizing of what the guy looks like only exacerbates my hurt.

I think her pain around feeling like she can't be her full self or that she must put herself in a box in order to make me feel safe comes from somewhere else. I think she needs to dive into that with her therapist. I think as much as she wants to be liked and respected for who she is inside, she has used who she is outside for validation for so long that she is having some trouble separating the two, and projecting the frustration with that on this situation. Just my two cents.

She wasn't being sarcastic in MC, and I know she was expressing real pain. I find it as irrational as many of you do, but I don't doubt that she feels it and it's real to her.

Her pain is legitimate, but it still kind of ignores the actual issue of boundaries. It turns it back on you instead of addressing a way to attack the problem without making you feel bad...for feeling bad.

One doesn't have to live in a box to be a safe partner.

Since she can't actually live that way, how can she help solve the problem?

My thoughts are that she is really struggling with the crux of "the work", that she so badly wants to find her own voice, her own self-worth, and be the source of her own validation, but yet she can't help but still seek it from others.

It is a difficult line, but people look for it and find it and then don't cross it. I think if she is at least trying understand what kind of validation she is looking for and why, those are steps in the right direction.

Another interesting bit helped my wife with boundaries at work. Sometimes it's signals as much as validation.

Our MC found some research about how men and women have different safe space distances. Something about how women tend to talk in closer proximity to each other, men stand farther away. So, when a woman moves in closer than 'normal' communication, a LOT of men interpret or misinterpret the closer range. Sounds weird, but it helped my wife understand a simple step of how close she stands next to a guy at work.

Her pain is legitimate, but it still kind of ignores the actual issue of boundaries. It turns it back on you instead of addressing a way to attack the problem without making you feel bad...for feeling bad.

One doesn't have to live in a box to be a safe partner.

Since she can't actually live that way, how can she help solve the problem?

I totally agree, and I was very frustrated in MC. I was heated and interrupting and interjecting and basically just being a rude participant. I wanted to keep shouting out, "I'm just asking you to say no to coffee dates and not wear one single dress! I'm not asking you to be a nun!" Our MC is pretty good at putting an end to that and asking more probing questions to get to the root of it. But I definitely feel like sometimes a bit of a 2x4 would be more warranted.

I just don't know, I'm feeling a lot better at this point but I would guess my wife is feeling like a basket case after the posts today. Sometimes it feels like a zero sum game, like for me to feel better, she must feel like shit. How do we get to the point where she doesn't have to hate herself and feel such intense shame in order for me to feel like she "gets it"?

What's ironic is that when she first confessed the 'coffee walk', she really did seem to get it and she was super accountable about it and owned the hell out of it. She knew she majorly fucked up and said so and did not get defensive with me when I expressed my disappointment and hurt. It was the minimizing around the OM that sent me over the edge once I saw him yesterday. Without that component, this whole thing would have been a net positive. It feels like my anger over her minimizing has triggered some kind of defensive anger within her, and instead of owning it all over again, she is expressing her own hurt over feeling "boxed up" or whatever.

Sometimes it feels like a zero sum game, like for me to feel better, she must feel like shit.

If our pain isn't recognized, it jumps back up. Unless a WS has been betrayed at some point in life, they'll never be able to understand our pain. And yet, we try really, really hard to make sure they KNOW how much we're hurt.

This is a fairly normal level of infidelity insanity.

When she feels bad about hurting you, that's a moment you know she is at least trying to understand your pain.

If you two want to skip this step, she has to be more proactive. She has to let you know that she knows you're still in pain, even when you're having a 'good' day.

How do we get to the point where she doesn't have to hate herself and feel such intense shame in order for me to feel like she "gets it"?

I'm doubling down on the proactive thing. She attacks the boundary issue instead of suggesting that living in a box is her only way out. You'll feel safe (the she gets it, she really gets it phase) -- when she is the one showing you how she is being a safer partner.

Once she takes the lead on healing the marriage, you'll not worry about her seeing your pain as much. Because she's out there being a person who is actively protecting you, protecting the relationship.

We lose that sense of 'two of us' against the world when infidelity is a part of the deal. It's a battle to get that back. She has to want to battle for it. When she does, you'll not feel the need to remind her of your pain.

Did you discuss the minimizing of the guy at work in MC?

You see it as her minimizing and she sees it as I don't think he's attractive so that's how I described him. I feel like the whole thing is a natural trigger for you and that is understandable. However, if she had no feelings that he was an attractive man and you are pushing your perspective that she was minimizing those very feelings then that is bound to cause some degree of defensiveness, isn't it?

Did you get to a place in MC where you acknowledged that maybe she wasn't attracted to this guy but that a different description of him might have helped you? Or did you continue to stick to your perspective that she was minimizing?

I feel like you have to acknowledge that she may not have found the guy attractive. At the same time, she has to acknowledge that how she describes these events may make things worse for you. I know she lied and cheated in the past but at some point you can't question every bit of intent she has in every description of every interaction with another man. I get that it sucks you are in this position at all but there are several points of data here that support she was trying to do the right thing once she realized she stepped over a boundary.

Did you discuss the minimizing of the guy at work in MC?

You see it as her minimizing and she sees it as I don't think he's attractive so that's how I described him. I feel like the whole thing is a natural trigger for you and that is understandable. However, if she had no feelings that he was an attractive man and you are pushing your perspective that she was minimizing those very feelings then that is bound to cause some degree of defensiveness, isn't it?

Did you get to a place in MC where you acknowledged that maybe she wasn't attracted to this guy but that a different description of him might have helped you? Or did you continue to stick to your perspective that she was minimizing?

I feel like you have to acknowledge that she may not have found the guy attractive. At the same time, she has to acknowledge that how she describes these events may make things worse for you. I know she lied and cheated in the past but at some point you can't question every bit of intent she has in every description of every interaction with another man. I get that it sucks you are in this position at all but there are several points of data here that support she was trying to do the right thing once she realized she stepped over a boundary.

We did talk about and you have the gist of it about right. We have had very similar fights about very similar things before. My wife focuses on the emotion/truth she wants to convey, whereas I focus on the actual words and implications. So she was "honest" in that I do believe she doesn't have an attraction for him, but she wasn't "honest" in her word usage, and she has admitted as such. Since she didn't find him attractive, she described him as "unattractive and bald". I pushed harder and she finally agreed he was "fit". In real life, he's in great shape, shaves his head, and is objectively attractive from what I can tell as a hetero male. Why can't she just say, "he is in great shape, but I don't find him attractive because of X, Y, and Z." Problem solved.

I know she was trying to do the right thing, and that the whole reason she told me about it is because she knew she fucked up and wanted to show me that she knew that. That's huge. It's worth celebrating, and I'm sure it wasn't an easy thing to bring to me. Like I said in an earlier post, it's the minimizing on the details that has caused this huge clusterfuck, not the actual 'coffee walk', which was basically dealt with last week. It just came roaring back because of the minimizing, which sends me right back to feeling like I can't trust her and she's not safe. What good is a confession if I'm not getting the whole story? How can I repair if I don't know what the actual damage is?

You probably already know this.... but remember to praise the behavior you want more of. She had the candor and courage to tell you and, as you said, that's worth celebrating.

Don't let the difference in language needs and her shortfall overwhelm so much that you don't adequately reinforce the good behavior.

Agree with Trdd, above. Positive reinforcement works better.

Here's a thought for your consideration. I take it your WW is the kind of woman most men would find objectively pretty, and sexy. Beautiful and hot even. Plus, I gather she is at ease talking to and joking with a wide spectrum of people, and she is quite intelligent and fun-loving. A pretty woman, a "people person", a bit of a natural flirt.

Dude, you realize that getting sex with just about any man, for a woman like that, is as easy as breathing air is for you and me. Further, she knows this. She's been around the block long enough to know her power over men. Literally, if she wanted to cheat, she could go to a bar, pick up any of a coterie of men, bang him, and be back home, in like an hour.

In one of her posts (and I'm aware we're discouraged from doing this, but I believe you've read her posts), she said that during her A she wanted to be a bad girl. She wallowed in it.

My point is that she hasn't done this, at least not for a very long time, despite easy access if she wanted. And she doesn't want to do it. To the contrary, she wants to be a good wife and mother.

Anyways, even if she did want to, she's smart enough to know that, at this point in her career, the dumbest thing she could do would be a tryst with a subordinate at work.

So although I totally understand why you feel angst about this, and I agree that it is warranted, at the same time I agree with her that, in the long run, the goal is trust. I'm rambling incoherently here, but my point is, if she wants to cheat, it would be super easy for her to do so and she wouldn't have to risk a bad workplace incident to do it, and she wouldn't come home and tell you about it. She said that, back in the day when she cheated, she wanted to cheat. Now, she wants to be a good wife and mother. That's the difference.

I realize in the meantime there are triggers and such, and the fact that the two of you are in counseling is a good thing. Try to listen more, though. Try not to interject so much. And acknowledge the stuff she does right. That's my advice.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 10:11 PM, August 27th (Tuesday)]

We had MC today and my wife expressed how she feels like her simply being alive makes me feel threatened and that she has to "put herself in a box" in order to appease me.

Yeesh, I can't even tell you how much this would bother me. Does she not understand that because of the choices she's made, and because of the trauma she's inflicted on you, that ironclad boundaries are necessary from here on out? The fact that she's trying to get better now (and succeeding in some ways, it must be acknowledged) doesn't change the fact that for twelve years she demonstrated a deep and enduring capacity for betrayal and lies, and telling her that you expect her to remain cool and distant from other men is hardly some big onerous thing that keeps her in a box.

Is she at least responding better now?

So she was "honest" in that I do believe she doesn't have an attraction for him, but she wasn't "honest" in her word usage, and she has admitted as such. Since she didn't find him attractive, she described him as "unattractive and bald". I pushed harder and she finally agreed he was "fit". In real life, he's in great shape, shaves his head, and is objectively attractive from what I can tell as a hetero male. Why can't she just say, "he is in great shape, but I don't find him attractive because of X, Y, and Z." Problem solved.

In the cheaters' dictionary, it is called 'minimising', and you know it. Your wife knew he was attractive, but wanted to play it off as 'nothing', and to show you how much of a nothing Baldy is/was, she would introduce you to him, for you to feel 'safe' as he would show not attraction towards him in your presence.

Problem is, I think your wife forgets that if Baldy were a female, instead of a male, it is unlikely you would have had triggered.

Do you have any boundaries for your wife going for coffee/meals with females? If not, then this 'boxing' herself rationale, is an excuse.

Has the IC/MC asked why your wife needs validation from males, rather than females? From what you have posted, it seems that she values validation more from males than from females.

We spoke last night, I told her I felt so confused because I thought we had reached a place of understanding on this a week ago and that she had taken full ownership and seemed to have no issue with reinforcing firmer boundaries. She had been very upset all day, from MC all the way through bedtime, and I could tell speaking was difficult for her and she really struggled with communicating effectively when she is full of anxiety and stress.

She told me that I had misinterpreted her need "put herself in a box", or that she had nor articulated it well in therapy, or at least that she communicated it at the wrong time. I had assumed that since she made that statement in the middle of our discussion around the 'coffee walk' that she had been referring to that event directly in terms of feeling like she has to 'put herself in a box'. She clarified last night that that wasn't what she meant, what she meant was that she lives in such constant fear of screwing up and disappointing me that she feels she has to live life in a box. That made a lot more sense to me. I wish it had been communicated better yesterday as it could have saved some unnecessary pain on my end and led to a better MC discussion.

She is in a lot of pain right now and feeling very worthless, telling me over and over how I would be happy with someone else and why am I trying so hard to make it work with her. I really feel for her - it must be incredibly disheartening to feel like despite trying your best, you still do things that hurt the person you love. I reminded her of the things she has done which have made me feel very loved - she keeps a "gratitude journal" for me to read, she writes me great 'love letter' emails from time to time, she's still the best mom I know and we still have a lot of fun together on our best days, such as our recent staycation. I am working hard because I love her and I don't think I would be happier with someone else.

But I do think I could be happier with her, and I want so badly for to take the negative energy of hating herself and apply it to fixing the few things that continue to cause me hurt. And this is of course easier said than done. My wife has spent a lifetime feeling hatred for herself, for reasons that are beyond me and I think even beyond her. I told her the closest I get to hating her is hating her for choosing to have an affair, and the hate is because I love her so much and I yearn so badly for a life together without infidelity as a part of it.

@BTFG - I usually appreciate your posts but that was some of most asinine stuff I've read on here, especially before your edit. I don't take comfort in knowing "how easy" she could have cheated again and didn't, nor does that earn her much "trust capital" from me given she was carrying on an active deception the whole time. It certainly doesn't make me feel like she should be allowed to pick and choose who she spends alone time with at the office. Stating "how stupid" it would be to cheat with a co-worker also does not give me any comfort, as if affairs are started with clear heads and rational thought. Come on man.

The piece that continues to hold me back is not acceptance of what she did, but acceptance that I am living a life that I would not be living had I known the truth.

I'm confused here. I'm not sure what you need, but I think it's along the lines of:

Accept your life as you lived it....

Forgive yourself for not confronting your W earlier....

Accept that you can't change the past....

My internal dialogue was, "yeah, let me meet him now when I'm in this terrible mood, he'll think "your husband is an asshole AND unattractive to boot", then even worse than just hitting on you for fun, he'll feel justified in saving you from a life with me." Did I mention I know I have my own shit to work on?

Your posts are filled with negative comments about your desirability, and that attitude toward yourself is, I expect, a big obstacle for you.

Right now you're imagining things, and you're letting your imagination control you. Have you talked directly with your W about why and how and how much she finds you attractive? It's a tough convo, but I think you need to have it.

My internal dialogue was, "yeah, let me meet him now when I'm in this terrible mood, he'll think "your husband is an asshole AND unattractive to boot", then even worse than just hitting on you for fun, he'll feel justified in saving you from a life with me."

Underneath that messaging, I suspect what you're really hearing is more like

"I'm an asshole and unattractive and emotionally messed up to boot."

I expect that's flat out wrong. IRL, you're probably no more an asshole than anyone else .

You've got to change your self-talk. You've obviously got a lot on the ball. Own it, bro. You're loving, lovable, and capable. That's reality. Own it, and enjoy it.

^^THIS^^

Even if your wife becomes the epitome of a safe partner (for which she clearly has work to do), she can NEVER assuage your negative internal dialogue.

Never.

Your lack of self esteem is as big a barrier to reconciliation as is her struggle with boundaries.

Thanks, both of you. I know I have a lot to work on here. I've been going to the gym 2-3 times a week for maybe six months now, it helps with my confidence but I still can't seem to shed any weight despite putting on some muscle. I've always been in the 200-215 range for as long as I can remember, and I don't mind being a bigger guy but I've always wanted to stay more around 190. I still feel in my head the same way I did as a 16 year old, self-conscious about my weight, it's like a mental block I struggle to get over. I constantly expect my face in a mirror to show up as a baby-faced, chubby-cheeked high-schooler. It surprises me when I see the man I am today. It's like some kind of disassociation I have with myself, and it makes it hard to stay confident in what I look like. I've always had confidence in who I am, my intelligence, my drive to succeed, but I have never once in my life been confident in how I look.

My wife tells me over and over how attractive she finds me, but it just doesn't "stick" for me. I think part of why I struggle is that my weight has fluctuated a lot of the years and even when I was more overweight, my wife would still tell me I was attractive and that she didn't care if I lost weight or not. I always found that hard to believe. I would also feel self-conscious about it being out with her, assuming people would think she is only with me for money or something (not that I ever had money).

I've also always carried guilt about the fact that while we both love each other for who we are inside, her body is gorgeous and like a bonus for me to enjoy, whereas she has always had to accept my "dad bod", or worse. I've always felt like I've owed her at least a year of being in legitimately good shape, since I've gotten to enjoy so many years of her being in great shape. It's a weird thought, but I have it and can't shake it and it makes me angry with myself for not being able to do it. I struggle to put enough good months together to make it happen without relapsing into bad eating habits and giving up the gym. It's like the one thing in the world that I can't find success at no matter how hard I put my mind to it, and that really bothers me.

Well, now I feel like the basket case... how's that for some embarrassing honesty?

I know I was hard on you several months ago, and rubbed you the wrong way. The reason I can advise you on these things is because I deal with them every day.

FFS, I am a retired soldier, I have a second career, I moonlight as a fitness trainer for enjoyment, I am in amazing shape at mid-forties, I am married to a great woman (I am a BS from previous marriage)...I have got some stuff going for me.

Nonetheless, I STILL struggle with these things...

Poor self image... (My abs don't show enough)

Lousy internal dialogue... (I'm not as good as so-and-so)

Comfort food leading to shame spirals...

...which leads to more destructive behavior and lousy internal dialogue.

Given your mindset, nobody will be as hard on you as you are yourself.

What has (mostly) helped me emerge from that lousy cycle is MMA training (kickboxing, wrestling, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu). It allows me to stay fit, release my anger, and feel a sense of achievement as I earn advancement or use a new technique to advance over a training partner.

The other thing that has helped is catching myself when I start to compare myself to others. Sure...I am decent at the MMA training...but get my ass kicked far more than the other way around. This leads to the comparison thinking.

What I have to remind myself is that most of those guys and girls that train with me are not nearly as successful in some areas as me. For all I know, they wish they could be.

So when you find yourself going down the road of comparing yourself to someone in an area for which you cannot possibly "win", remind yourself that there are likely talents and gifts that you possess which others desperately want as well.

You are blessed...if you would only take the time and effort to recognize it.

Take care, brother.

That was inspiring, thank you farside. I would love to train MMA, I use to wrestle a little bit and I miss being physical in that way. I have always been too chicken shit to join any sort of group fitness class because of my insecurities and feeling judged. It's a hard cycle to break.

I usually appreciate your posts but that was some of most asinine stuff I've read on here, especially before your edit.

Sorry, man. I agree it was a lame post. I started rambling with no place that I actually planned to go.

In this General forum is a thread about "reasons" that cheaters cheat. I think the consensus is that, bottom line, cheaters cheat because they want to cheat.

I guess my point was that I believe your WW does not want to cheat. I think she is safe. I understand your triggers over the coffee and such. I was trying to offer some backwards reassurance that, at the very least, I believe she is safe to you.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 4:15 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)]

First things first: You wanna lose weight? It's food. Calories. You have to burn more calories than you eat. You will never lose the weight you want to just by working out because it's extremely difficult to burn enough calories to lose weight strictly by working out when you consume too much.

Someone will come along and disagree with me, but they are wrong. When boxers, fighter, actors, and bodybuilders want to lose weight they go to reducing calories.

That's what works.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 5:18 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)]

Second thing, you wife is lying and full of it.

I've gone out to coffee with many an opposite-gender colleague, but I am not an established cheater and liar.

She knew damn well she was violating a very serious boundary by meeting with this man.

She did it because she wanted to. She makes doing things like this right in her mind at the moment she should be making the right decision because she does not want to let being truly faithful supercede her base desires.

I keep reading "to be fair". Fuck that! Has she been fair to you?

Was it fair to have a sexual relationship while you were in a committed relationship prior to being married?

Was it fair for her to have inappropriate interactions with another cheater during your marriage, letting him know she cheated on you, then establishing a relationship with his family so he knew you had been cheated while you all hung out and you were ignorant of that fact?

Was it fair when she spent the day smoking blunts with some strange man in another country?

Fuck fair! She should be bending over backwards to stay 1000 feet from anything that could be considered breaking a boundary!

She shouldn't be whining about "being in a box", she shouldn't be pushing back against ANYTHING you require to feel safe in your relationship.

She broke the one-on-one with another man boundary and totally misrepresented it.

People like your wife always lie themselves right into cheating: "it's just coffee, I don't find him attractive", "it's just drinks", "it was just a kiss", "we only had sex 1/2/3 times", "it doesn't mean anything because I don't love him", etc.

Your wife hasn't earned fairness. She has earned suspicion.

She also hasn't changed. She will do this again. I think she will cheat again.

I think that awful feeling you have of having lost time to lies will be back if you stay with this woman.

Second thing, you wife is lying and full of it.

I've gone out to coffee with many an opposite-gender colleague, but I am not an established cheater and liar.

She knew damn well she was violating a very serious boundary by meeting with this man.

She did it because she wanted to. She makes doing things like this right in her mind at the moment she should be making the right decision because she does not want to let being truly faithful supercede her base desires.

I keep reading "to be fair". Fuck that! Has she been fair to you?

Was it fair to have a sexual relationship while you were in a committed relationship prior to being married.and then lie to you about it for over a decade?

Was it fair for her to have inappropriate interactions with another cheater during your marriage, letting him know she cheated on you, then establishing a relationship with his family so he knew you had been cheated on while you all hung out and you were ignorant of that fact?

Was it fair when she spent the day smoking blunts with some strange man in another country?

Fuck fair! She should be bending over backwards to stay 1000 feet from anything that could be considered breaking a boundary!

She shouldn't be whining about "being in a box", she shouldn't be pushing back against ANYTHING you require to feel safe in your relationship.

She broke the one-on-one with another man boundary and totally misrepresented it.

That is straight up lying.

People like your wife always lie themselves right into cheating: "it's just coffee, I don't find him attractive", "it's just drinks", "it was just a kiss", "we only had sex 1/2/3 times", "it doesn't mean anything because I don't love him", etc.

Your wife hasn't earned fairness. She has earned suspicion.

She also hasn't changed. She will do this again. I think she will cheat again.

I think that awful feeling you have of having lost time to lies will be back if you stay with this woman.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 5:20 PM, August 28th (Wednesday)]