SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I have no idea if this helps...

I am a BS then a WS, so take that for what it is worth...

I have read yours and your H's threads. I have to say, with all respect, the you have BLOWN in to last few weeks.

Here is the deal, I think you are trying, I applaud you for it, You completely suck at it, but I applaud you for trying.

I want you to try and understand some things from the BS side if at all possible...

Empathy - Practical definition; Being able to actually FEEL the pain of your BH. Actually FEEL it.

You think you have empathy, and you are working on it, OK, for you and all of the other WW, and WH but mostly I am speaking to WW...

I want you to think about the absolute worst emotional pain that you have ever felt, ever in your entire life... OR if you will think about how you would feel if you lost one of your children...

Now, take that emotional pain and multiply it by a FACTOR of 10,000.

Now that is not x times 10,000... it is x times 1, times 2, times 3, times 4, times 5 and on and on until you reach 10,000.

So 5 factorial is 120, 5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1 = 120 times the worst pain that you have ever felt in your life or that you can imagine...

That is the level of pain that your husband is feeling.

Can you start to see how much he is hurting?

His options, lets talk about that...

1) He waits around for your to get it, grow up, then he tries to actually believe that you love him, and accept you, and continue in R.

2) He divorces you NOW and starts a new life with a woman that has not betrayed him, one that he can trust, one that is actually grown up and has some emotional intelligence, the will recognize what an absolute CATCH your H is, and literally does every thing humanly possible to treat him like a king, every second of every day for the rest of his life...

Option 2 is WAY, WAY easier for him, and frankly a lot more fun, and less trouble...

So as harsh as what I am saying is, can you understand how HUGE, absolutely HUGE, the chance that he is giving you is. Can you fathom that at all.

Because trust me it is way easier for him to dump you and move on than allow you time to figure your shit out and see if it works...

[This message edited by BluesPower at 2:48 PM, March 11th (Monday)]

BluesPower, I respectfully ask you to consider that there are people on SI, including myself, who actually have lost a child or children. I held them in my arms and watched them die. I experienced the total helplessness of being unable to do a single thing to help them survive, and the devastating, suicidal shock of the months that followed. I understand your point that the betrayal of infidelity is immensely painful, beyond the level that most WS can imagine. However, unless you've actually been through what I have been through, I ask you not to use it for hyperbole or to diminish it to some microscopic level of pain compared to an A.

A few straight-up (possibly wrong) thoughts:

It almost feels like because I “got away” with lying for 12 years, that I shouldn’t “get away” with anything that’s hurtful ever again. That it would be letting me off the hook to give me the benefit of the doubt because he did that for years and he is mad at himself for it, for letting himself be fooled by me.

You did 'get away' with it for 12years. No if or buts. He did ask you a few times, and you had fobbed him off that it was 'just a kiss'....

It makes me so angry that I brought us to this point, so sad that he internalizes my horrible choices as partly his fault, afraid that he will resent me forever if he chooses to stay with me, terrified that I won’t be able to stop inadvertently hurting him no matter how fixed I get because relationships are relationships and I just can’t promise that. I’m so scared that he won’t be able to heal if he stays with me because the small hurts will always have the potential to become big hurts.

I'm squirming reading this. You are already engineering a 'way out' if you fall back into your 'old' habits again. Still in wayward mode of thinking. Protecting oneself, and not others.

I want him to stay and for us to both heal and for us to build a new M grounded in authenticity and mutual love and respect.

Then tell him, but leave out the 'us' for healing. YOU want him to stay for HIM to heal. There is no 'us' at the moment. Work on HIM first and the 'us' may happen. He needs to know that YOU need HIM.

I want him to want it badly enough to eventually be able to let go of the old fairy tale narrative, the current justice-seeking narrative, and to write a brand new narrative with me. But he doesn’t know if he can.

Sorry, not your choice to make. You will have to let him make that choice. If you had confessed 12years ago, this narrative you are wishing for, could have materialized. He needs to be in control of the narrative now, as the earlier narrative was written by a manipulator.

It would feel like compromising his morals, the very essence of his being, to do so. It scares the shit out of me. So much so that I feel my inner voice telling me to keep it quiet. I hear it trying to bargain with me – if you just stay quiet long enough for him to heal then he’ll be in a better place to hear you. I don’t want to be disingenuous, I just want to stop hurting him.

Flawed, this is still about you. Him hearing YOU, not you hearing HIM. *hint here: this is part of being empathic*

You finally had the guts to take of your mask that you had been wearing for 12years. It now feels good, and you can breathe again! Oh joy! You now want the world to see you as you are!

Problem: You BH does not know that person. He knew the mask, and could relate well to the mask, not you. This is not his doing, as he did not know you were wearing a mask.

You feel as if your pent up frustrations from wearing that false facade coming out. You had to be the mouse-like wife, and be under control. Now that you have confessed, the sprung coil spring has been released. When you release energy uncontrolled, it tends to destroy things pretty damn quick, as it is indiscriminate.

Wind up that frustrations/emotional spring, as you are thinking about yourself again. You might think, 'but that is what I had been doing the last 12years!'. Nope, you were not thinking about your BH. You were thinking about yourself. How you would possibly lose your lifestyle.

This is not to say that you cannot show emotion. You can, and you should, but at a more measured pace. In the spring analogy, it is like a watch spring. Those buggers can take out an eye if not handled well, but when it is in it's case, it can make a beautiful watch complication come alive, and tell perfect time....

Yikes! Double post

[This message edited by RocketRaccoon at 9:11 PM, March 12th (Tuesday)]

Flawed, two things -

I can think of one example where I managed to "get it right" so to speak. It was several months ago and he was reading on his phone at the dinner table. I was nonchalant and direct and said something like, "Hey, can you put your phone away when we're eating dinner together?" He said yes and references this example when he tells me how he wants me to communicate with him - clearly, directly, and in a timely fashion. I remember feeling anxious about saying it and was almost shocked by the fact that he happily complied and didn't get defensive or mad at me.

Maybe, instead of looking for how to have empathy, for now you should think about what he wants to hear most of all and keep it in the front of your mind so it's always clear and direct and easy for you to access. Not like a script, but like an affirmation of the big picture rather than whatever is in the moment. So you're not caught up in the moment trying to figure out what's going on. Something like - I have caused you so much pain and the biggest priority in my life is getting us through this. I am working on myself every day. I will do anything I can to help me, you, and our marriage get to a better place. Or whatever it's most important for him to hear, overall.

One of the reasons I keep trying (and failing) at communicating my feelings more effectively is that I've identified a pattern in when and how I lash out at him, and I think that being able to effectively communicate my feelings is the antidote.

Would it help to NOT communicate your feelings, when you are in the middle of having them? If you have a hard time communicating your feelings, and don't understand what's under them (like the time you wanted to pick up the kids), then maybe it's best to say that you need time to calm down and sort them out. When you are calm, like on here, you seem really able to do that.

My feelings are a mess sometimes. I DON'T want to communicate my feelings to BH during those times because they are a terrible indicator of where my sane mind is when I'm not in the middle of a feelings whirlwind. Those feelings are coming from misplaced blame, feeling like a victim, anxiety, whatever. FOO and early stuff. Sometimes I'll say - I'm in the middle of a vortex right now, I don't want to say anything out loud because it is not coming from reality, just my misperception of the world, it will be hurtful to you. Please stay with me but don't ask how I feel. It's OK for us because we talked about it ahead of time, when I'm not so clenched.

I hope the two of you start to find steps forward to hang on to, soon. Have you had any conversations about the A with him that seemed to go OK, and what seemed to work?

BraveSirRobin, I'm so sorry to hear about your child.

Bluespower, I'm sorry, but the hyperbole in your post is out of proportion and not helpful. I'm a BH, but not a WH. The issue that Flawed's BH is wrestling with is an issue that many men grapple with, especially men who have a life history of being the "good guy" rather than the "bad boy". It's not about the magnitude of the pain. It is about its persistence, plus its location in the kernel of his self-identity as a sexual man. It undermines his sense of himself as a sexual man.

It's possible that, like the irritating grain of sand in an oyster, it could eventually become a pearl. It needs nurturing and time.

The attempt to analogize to losing a child is grossly misplaced. I am a parent myself, and I have a good friend who did lose a child. There is simply no pain that is worse. Certainly infidelity can sometimes shatter families which can lead to losses that may be similar, but there is no natural order to the loss of a child. It is a pain that can't really ever heal.

I personally think Flawed is doing the work and going about it in a positive way. Among other things, she is seeking truth and honesty, which is not always easy, clean, nor linear.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 1:03 PM, March 12th (Tuesday)]

Pippen said:

Maybe, instead of looking for how to have empathy, for now you should think about what he wants to hear most of all and keep it in the front of your mind so it's always clear and direct and easy for you to access. Not like a script, but like an affirmation of the big picture rather than whatever is in the moment. So you're not caught up in the moment trying to figure out what's going on. Something like - I have caused you so much pain and the biggest priority in my life is getting us through this. I am working on myself every day. I will do anything I can to help me, you, and our marriage get to a better place. Or whatever it's most important for him to hear, overall.

Gently, trying to figure out "whatever it's most important for him to hear, overall" , in my opinion, is not based on truth, but based on manipulation. It's so hard to say the truths and feelings that you know will cause more pain, but you must remember that you already did the things that cause the pain and it needs discussion and understanding. This took me years to understand and I see you, Flawed, going through the same turmoil that I experienced and still do at times.

BraveSirRobin - I am so sorry for your losses. I have always imagined losing a child to be the absolute worst pain there could be in this world - losing more than one completely unfathomable.

You articulated the point BluesPower was trying to make with grace, and it's true that I can't fully grasp the depths of pain my BS is in but I am committed to trying to better understand and empathize with it. BluesPower is right in that I often do suck at it, but you have to start somewhere.

ThatWillDo - thank you for pointing that out, I hadn't realized it might be read as misleading or untruthful. I didn't mean that at all.

Here's what I meant -some truths are more helpful for BH to hear over and over, and some truths are not helpful. For example, I said early on - I know that you are a much better man than AP. He *hated* hearing that. Because he knew he was a much better man, but his worry was that I wanted a bad or deviant or manipulative man, not him. It was also true that I wanted to be with BH, not AP, and that was what he wanted to hear, and why. Both statements are true, one is helpful and one is not.

Also, language matters. Early on, I would use the word "fantasy" to describe the falseness of the interactions. I meant it was unreal. He heard that it was ideal. That caused a lot of difficulty and hurt for him until I got it through my head how he was hearing it.

I've come to understand many things that are both true and helpful for BH to hear over and over, things that speak to his specific insecurities and hurt. And things that are particularly helpful for him. I'm not always intuitive about what they are, and things I think are helpful often aren't. But once I understood what he needs to hear, and why, they are my go-tos when he's feeling upset. Just last night he had a nightmare and I understood just what he wanted to hear, and it wasn't what I would have led with if I wasn't being mindful of his perspective. I don't think that's empathy, but it is informed communication, and it's a start,.

RocketRaccoon - there's a lot in your post that I don't feel I have the time to address. I appreciate the spring analogy, and I think this is something we agree on. My goal is to be able to communicate with my BS in an authentic, empathetic, compassionate way all at the same time - to be like the watch spring.

Flawed, this is still about you. Him hearing YOU, not you hearing HIM. *hint here: this is part of being empathic*

Yes, what I wrote was about me. What I didn't write is how much I am working to also understand my BS. I recently switched ICs and I told my BS that one of the reasons I think she's a better fit is that she's helping me better understand myself AND helping me better understand him. I've been reading about transference and I think I do have a tendency to make assumptions about what he's thinking and feeling that aren't about him. I'm trying to be more mindful about this and to do a better job of really listening to what he's saying, to understand and validate him, and to communicate more effectively with him.

You feel as if your pent up frustrations from wearing that false facade coming out. You had to be the mouse-like wife, and be under control.

I didn't have to be the mouse-like wife. I was that way because it's what I learned from my FOO and I made millions of little choices in how I deferred to my BS, and ignored my own thoughts/feelings because I thought it would make him happy, that formed a habit over time. I'm not all that frustrated by it because I wasn't really aware that I was doing it. And now I know, and I take full responsibility for making those choices. What I am frustrated with is that I'm pretty bad at integrating authenticity and empathy, and I don't like that my inability to do so is causing my BS unnecessary pain.

Pippin - Thanks for your thoughts on communication. It's so damn hard for me in real time and so, so important so I appreciate all the advice I can get.

Would it help to NOT communicate your feelings, when you are in the middle of having them? If you have a hard time communicating your feelings, and don't understand what's under them (like the time you wanted to pick up the kids), then maybe it's best to say that you need time to calm down and sort them out. When you are calm, like on here, you seem really able to do that.

Absolutely this would help. In fact, my BS recently actually asked me to - at least for the time being - write my thoughts and feelings down rather than try to communicate them in real time. Writing seems to be a win-win - it's low-pressure for me, I have time to dig into what I'm really thinking and feeling, and those thoughts are more authentic because they aren't hidden beneath layers of anxiety about how my BS will react. I can frame the message with empathy so my BS doesn't feel attacked or blamed, and he's told me he appreciates it. So, this seems to be a good solution especially while I'm working on improving my communication skills.

I've come to understand many things that are both true and helpful for BH to hear over and over, things that speak to his specific insecurities and hurt. And things that are particularly helpful for him. I'm not always intuitive about what they are, and things I think are helpful often aren't. But once I understood what he needs to hear, and why, they are my go-tos when he's feeling upset. Just last night he had a nightmare and I understood just what he wanted to hear, and it wasn't what I would have led with if I wasn't being mindful of his perspective. I don't think that's empathy, but it is informed communication, and it's a start.

This is basically how I interpreted your message - to focus on saying whatever truths are most important for him to hear. I see the value in doing this, and I am trying to get better at this with the knowledge that continual improvement requires greater understanding of my BS and empathizing with him to be able to speak to what he is feeling in any given moment.

I didn't have to be the mouse-like wife. I was that way because it's what I learned from my FOO and I made millions of little choices in how I deferred to my BS, and ignored my own thoughts/feelings because I thought it would make him happy, that formed a habit over time. I'm not all that frustrated by it because I wasn't really aware that I was doing it. And now I know, and I take full responsibility for making those choices. What I am frustrated with is that I'm pretty bad at integrating authenticity and empathy, and I don't like that my inability to do so is causing my BS unnecessary pain.

This rings true to me, and was my experience as well. I resented my H for all that "he" expected of me. He didn't expect most any of it - they were my perceptions of what I should do as a wife and all of it was FOO. There are actually several forms of distorted thinking that I went through - one that was kind of tied to this was "catastrophizing" meaning if what I was doing didn't please him, or if he was having a bad day and acting out, I felt like "I do all this - look around you! You should not have anything to complain about! Maybe we are never going to be on the same page!" It was all from FOO as well. We tend to pick up coping mechanisms growing up to deal with our environment and then carry them forward even when our environment isn't toxic any more.

I think you are doing some very good work.

I will also say that sometimes the empathy and authenticity do feel at odds with things.

I am not sure what it would be like to confess 12 years later. I confessed the same as you, on my own 2 months later. But - I think I can maybe see that you have spent 12 years lying to yourself about why you shouldn't tell. Another poster mentioned that there are effects on the brain from lying long term that blocks our empathy for a period of time. I know for me, the cognitive dissonance of what i was doing was very very strong. I think that empathy and remorse go hand and hand. Guilt/Regret more goes along with how we feel about what we did.

You came to the place, I am assuming, same as I did, where the guilt/regret was strong enough to tell? (I am sorry - I have not followed your story very closely so I am sure this was covered somewhere else.) But, the entire time I minimized the reaction in my head. I minimized the damage I would make. So, when I actually told, I was really unprepared for it. I think there was still a part of me that was justifying my behavior, my not telling, my lies. It takes time I think after coming out to realign what you imagine the response or damage to be with what it actually is.

Keep working on yourself. Read a lot in the I can relate forum about people who find out years later. Also read in just found out. There is a wealth of information there. I know I had my husband to tell me, and I did try and understand him but seeing the commonality of what people feel in these circumstances, seeing the themes, and some of them could express it better than my husband was able to in order to get through to me. I don't think it's not that you don't want to feel his pain, or that you are unwilling to help him. I think the re-wiring that goes into an affair and then hiding it for a long time takes some time to correct. I have been where you are, while it's unintentional and frustrating it's also very hard to know all you are doing is causing more damage. But, you are right - being authentic about it is honestly just as important. We look like a monster in that way as well. It's a tight balancing act. I tried to concentrate a lot on all the ways I hurt him and apologize as I got to the place I could really relate and internalize each one.

Anyway, I just wanted you to know that someone else was where you are, and I think some of the things you are working on and saying makes a lot of sense. If there was a magic want, we would use it, but the work is slow and frustrating. Keep trying.

Writing seems to be a win-win - it's low-pressure for me, I have time to dig into what I'm really thinking and feeling, and those thoughts are more authentic because they aren't hidden beneath layers of anxiety about how my BS will react. I can frame the message with empathy so my BS doesn't feel attacked or blamed, and he's told me he appreciates it. So, this seems to be a good solution especially while I'm working on improving my communication skills.

I did something like this as well. It was in a journal. Getting to my authentic thoughts without regard to my H's reaction was really hard work, but the more I practiced the more I recognized bullshit from not-bullshit (forgive my crass terms). This is a good practice. I wrote here a lot too...but my H isn't here. Had he been when I was saying some of the crap in my head? That would have been the big D for sure. The kind folks here straightened me out a lot. But, writing it out and really weighing it against what it is we really feel is a powerful tool.

I just wanted to provide some encouragement, I see you are on the right path, and while we can't get to all of it as fast as we want it's nice sometimes to know we are at least not going in the opposite direction of what we should be doing.

I didn't have to be the mouse-like wife. I was that way because it's what I learned from my FOO and I made millions of little choices in how I deferred to my BS, and ignored my own thoughts/feelings because I thought it would make him happy, that formed a habit over time. I'm not all that frustrated by it because I wasn't really aware that I was doing it. And now I know, and I take full responsibility for making those choices.

Yeah, Stepford wives don't make good partners in a marriage. Glad you are out of that mode of behaviour.

Bravo on the recognition and acceptance that it was not your BH that caused you to act that way. This will make your journey easier. Does not mean that you have to flagellate yourself on your what you did in the past, but bear it like the Mariner's Albatross. This will not leave you, but will shape what you become.

What I am frustrated with is that I'm pretty bad at integrating authenticity and empathy, and I don't like that my inability to do so is causing my BS unnecessary pain.

Break the problem in to smaller parts. A corny but true saying, 'A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step'. Be consistent, and the rest will fall in place.

[This message edited by RocketRaccoon at 9:40 PM, March 12th (Tuesday)]

Hey Flawed, out of curiosity. Was the conversation where "he misunderstood" and "got triggered" as well as angry despite your valiant effort. The same conversation where you told him you had been lusting after his best friend for 10+ years and were flirting with your babysitter on the regular to make a good impression?

What you write here, how you seem to leave important things out, feels incredibly manipulative.

I’ve been thinking about manipulation, thanks to the internet strangers who have recently commented on how manipulative my thread seems. I’ve felt my hackles flare up in response to these “accusations” and I wonder why that is. It’s my reaction to these comments that makes me think it’s something that begs my attention. I have a mess of thoughts swirling in my head about this that I’m sure are flawed (I know) in some way.

I guess a good place to start is taking accountability for the ways I have been manipulative in the past (beyond the straight up lies and deception during and after my affair). When my BS and I fought in the past, I would get defensive and not want to hold myself accountable for things I said or did that inadvertently hurt my BS – I stuck to my guns and only after a lot of explaining by my BS about why he was hurt would I apologize. And even then, my apologies were shallow. “I’m sorry, but I didn’t mean to hurt you.” If our conflicts escalated farther, I would eventually boil over in frustration and shut everything down by saying things like, “I know, I hate myself too.” This absolutely made everything about me. It was immature, selfish, and manipulative. I never took the time to understand why I did this – worse, I blamed my BS for not giving me a break and realizing I had no ill will towards him. I wish I had long ago been in IC to understand my issues (for sooo many reasons), but here we are.

I am sort of aware of the ways in which I’ve been manipulative on this site. For starters – the only reason I posted was to prove to my BS I would do anything for him, including one of the hardest things I could imagine doing – putting my demons out there in the world. When I posted the gory details of my affair, I also did that for my BS. He had asked me to do it because I think he wanted some validation regarding how slutty I behaved during my affair. I thought 2 things: 1) Again, it would prove my willingness to do anything, and 2) I was hoping for some validation in the degree of honesty with which I documented the horrific shit I did. I thought there was a chance people would say things like, “I wish I had gotten something like this from my WS.” I also had this belief that ALL affairs include disgraceful behavior (slutty or whatever you want to call it), and I was also hoping to hear how typical it is for people to behave in such abhorrent ways in affairs – to make myself look less bad to my BS and for me to feel less bad about my disgusting behavior. That was manipulative. And after posting, I actually told my BS about this, but in vague terms. I said that I had concerns about my reasons for posting – that it didn’t feel like I did it for the right reasons, like I was looking to be validated for my honesty. He said he could see that and told me I should remove the details if I regretted posting them.

I think perhaps the main reason I appear so manipulative is this sense that by not posting more about all the ways I’ve fucked up, it’s lying by omission to make myself look better. I can see that. In some ways I’ve been conscious of this, and in some ways not. I’ve actually gone to the extent of justifying in my head why I choose NOT to share something negative, like for example, sending an inappropriate text to our favorite babysitter (who for the sake of context is about my age). My thought process went something like this….I know I fucked up. I fucked up real big at a time when I shouldn’t be fucking up like this. I feel really fucking awful about it because it hurt my BS, and because I’m in a position of power and texting “Holy shit how beautiful. The ocean looks nice too” in response to a picture she sent to me, likely put her in an uncomfortable position.

It was inappropriate. I feel really bad about it. I have had multiple conversations with my BS and IC about this. I did it to make her feel good, which made me feel good. I was seeking her approval. Why? Because I really like her as a person, and she owns something I want to own – enough self-worth that she doesn’t need anyone’s approval. So I feel like I’ve kinda pieced all this together. What would I have gained by posting this story? I think it would have been solely to self-flagellate. To show my BS that I’m ashamed enough to crave harsh words from internet strangers. I come here to process things that I’m either trying to understand or trying to improve. I felt like I understood what I had done in this case and chose not to post about it.

The crush on my BS’s best friend – I don’t fully understand this yet, so my reasoning to post things for the sake of reflection, enlightenment, or whatever, would have me post about this. So, I do think I made an exception not to post because this is extremely embarrassing for me and I carry a lot of shame about it. Perhaps this is manipulative, but there’s still a part of me that wonders why choosing not to share things with the interwebs (that I’m sharing openly with my BS) is manipulative. I also don’t want random internet strangers to “pick sides” or pit us against each other, and sometimes I worry that posting about very specific incidents has the potential to do that. In the last couple of weeks, I’ve purposefully tried to keep what I write about more general because of that.

But, I’ll speak about this “crush” because perhaps doing so would provide helpful insight beyond what I’m capable of on my own or with my IC. Have you ever felt something that you didn’t want to feel or had thoughts that you didn’t want to think? That’s how I feel about this “crush.” My BS asked me several weeks ago what the scariest question he could ask me was. I had a hard time answering (fear and avoidance), but eventually landed on, “Do you think about having sex with other people?” He asked me who, and again I waffled but finally owned up to the fact I had thought about having sex with his BF. This is fucking alarming for my BS AND for me. WHY?! Why have I fantasized about sex with his BF? The thing is – the fantasies aren’t really about his BF, they’re about ME. I am the center of these fucked up fantasies (which have happened occasionally – not long term over the course of their 10-year friendship); he is in the background, barely visible. I get to be this hot, desirable woman in them – to feel my value in one of the only ways I’ve always felt it – through my sexuality. IT’S FUCKED UP. I know it is.

For more context, my BS’s best friend married someone who I condescendingly believe might not be the best match for him. I have no business even thinking this – who am I to decide who’s good for him?! And yet, I have those thoughts – thoughts that he could do better – and low and behold my egomaniac self thinks I am better, that I could rescue him from a situation in which he needs absolutely no rescuing whatsoever. I don’t actually want to have sex with him. If I try to really imagine it, it repulses me. It comes back to all those things I felt as a 23-year-old – wanting to feel special, better than my peers. I fucking hate that I have these wayward thoughts! For some reason I feel the need to point out I do have firm boundaries with men – I don’t flirt with the friend, have never spent alone time with him, don’t even want to. So, hammer away. I know it’s fucked up. I hate that I’ve had these thoughts. I don’t want to have them. Kinda like how CBM wants to actually have sex with another woman but wishes he didn’t.

Anyhow, I’m going to stop here for now. I have a lot of thinking left to do on this, but I do appreciate those who have brought it to my attention.

[This message edited by Flawed at 11:45 AM, March 15th (Friday)]

Intent matters. When you use your influence to manipulate an outcome, it matters what the goal is. What are you getting from it? Was your intent devious or self-serving at the expense of another?

Everyone "manipulates". We do it from birth when we cry for food and comfort. We do it in business when we try to close a sale. As we mature though, we learn to respect other people's rights and boundaries. If I take a shower and comb my hair before a social gathering, am I "manipulating" people? That's kind an absurdity, but in a Randian sense, human interchanges are transactional by nature. I want people to like me, so I present myself with good hygiene. Quid pro quo.

If you look for more information online using the keywords "influence vs manipulation", I think you'll see that when we get down to semantics, "manipulation" is characterized by willful deceit and selfish intent. So, while it's good to think about these things, try not to be overly hard on yourself. There's also an article you might find online called Emotional Manipulation: What it is and how to deal with it which can help you better define the differences between influence and manipulation.

The bonus here is that once you make a habit of identifying intent, you'll also be a better position to avoid manipulation from others.

For starters – the only reason I posted was to prove to my BS I would do anything for him

Here is the thing, though. Regardless of why you made this first step, regardless of whether your first step was for the wrong reasons, you took it. No one's first post in the W forum is because they've turned into the Dalai Lama. People who come here are frequently in a fog, defensive and manipulative. So are you, but you are here.

I agree with most of what you posted in your last post. The question for you is, now what?

You have to put this behavior behind you. You can't go back and change anything starting right this moment. Find out what it is that has caused you to act this way, and why you allow this within yourself. Make the next step better.

Flawed,

That's a lot. But, this was my exact fear. I posted to your husband the other day that both people being on here can create a number of issues to navigate:

One, our posts are colored differently because we know our BS is going to read them.

Two, people do not just read things objectively, it's impossible not to project their own situations onto our own. I project MY situation and outlook on others, I catch myself doing it all the time. It's not meant maliciously, it's just the lens in which we view things is shaped by our own experiences of it.

And lastly, they carry the tracks between the two posters and sometimes infect it with those projections. Human nature, not intentional, but it IS happening.

I will say that while you may have had some PR type of posts, it's understandable in a volatile situation. WS's are famous for wanting to control the outcome of the situation. We OFTEN want to stay married. You of course are going to present yourself in a light that might make that possible. Give people less rocks to throw that continue to prey on your husband's mind.

One of the things I had to learn to do was to be okay with whatever the outcome was. I did not want a divorce by any means, but I had at least some idea (as did my husband) what it would look like if he chose the other way. He did in fact ask me for a divorce at one point, and we separated in house. During that time I knew that my life was forever altered, I was losing the best thing that happened to me, but life was going to go on and the logistics could and would be handled. I didn't admit defeat, I was clear on what I wanted, but through that what I learned was to drop the FEAR - the living in FEAR - that was what was causing me to try and manipulate the situation more. You were living in fear when you sanitized your statement, you are living in fear of everything right now.

If my H had been here in the beginning, omg - the entire site would have told him to divorce me that I was beyond help. It would have been justified by the sounds of my posts. Heck, probably some of them still would if he joined, who knows?

I do think you have discovered things about yourself that you need to work on. PR or not, we don't resonate with others unless we feel a shared truth. I feel *some* of that from your posts.

This last post shows this whole situation is ripping you to shreds. My only conclusion as to why you would write something like that is you truly are willing to do anything to save your marriage.

In your husbands last post, I feel for him too. I can see that he's very, very, conflicted about the situation. Part of his issue is he has a little bit of that "road not traveled...what if" going on that was probably there to some degree already. It's being compounded by the wanting to get out of pain. He thinks if he gets away from you the pain will go too. I don't even know if he realizes that.

I know people who got together young, there isn't one male counterpart in that relationship that doesn't say he regrets not experiencing more women sexually. One of them is my best friends husband, so I know what she says about his issues and how sometimes that really does effect their marriage. Some of your husband's conflict is from you and this situation but some of it is not. I think you both realize it, it sounds like he's been talking to IC about it.

It is my hope your husband takes more time for the dust to settle before doing anything rash, but in the meantime, what is happening between the two of you is not healthy. There needs to be some regrouping - I would get recommendations from IC on that as soon as you can.

I will repeat my other advice - go read in the I can relate forums about people who find out much later about the affair. It's hard because you have put this behind you, but to him this has just recently happened. It's no different than when my husband found out 2 months later. There is no water under the bridge to rely on in this situation, even though you thought there was when you confessed.

Sending you and your husband strength. Continue to work on yourself no matter what. I don't think there is a good guy or a bad guy in this situation...just two broken people who are trying to figure out what to do.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:34 PM, March 15th (Friday)]