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Going forward, my hope is that you invert this dynamic - not just for now or the next few years, but for the rest of your lives together (assuming he stays). Considering all you've stolen, all the feelings of resentment and injustice you've heaped upon your BH, I don't see how it could work any other way.

I really like what firenze wrote here, and I would like to echo it.

I don't think I need to go into detail about the special nature of your situation. I think it would be very hard to balance this kind of betrayal, even compared to what I went through (and what I went through was traumatic as hell). Twelve years is a long time to lose, and make no mistake, part of your BH will always feel as though those years (and really his entire life after this event) was lost in a way.

This will be a hard road to hoe. Do the work, make it up to him, I wish you luck.

My BS gave, gave, gave and I took, took, took.

Going forward, my hope is that you invert this dynamic - not just for now or the next few years, but for the rest of your lives together (assuming he stays).

I really like what firenze wrote here, and I would like to echo it.

When I first read these posts, something didn’t sit right with me. It has taken me awhile to figure out what it was. I’m trying to be more honest (especially with myself), so I’m going to try and break it down. My gut reaction was, I feel like I’ve been giving, giving, giving since before DDay and that I’ve tried to give so much more since DDay that I often feel like I’m hanging on by a thread. I thought, I’m not sure if I can keep this up for the rest of our lives, keep feeling like I have a debt that will never be repaid no matter how hard I work. I’ve been stewing over this, wondering if this is in fact the only dynamic that could work for us, wondering if I can embrace this role without any resentment. What I realize now is that my reaction was based on a faulty definition of “give.”

A post from hikingout made me realize something this week. She wrote:

One of the things that I learned is that because I was a perfectionist who became that way out feelings of shame and unworthiness that it meant I feared criticism. If you fear criticism then you moderate yourself on what you believe others think or expect. This means that you do not speak or act authentically. After doing this for maybe the majority of ones life, then you actually lose track of what your authentic voice is. You push your wants aside and no matter how small those things are they add up and add up until you build resentment. Resentment breads entitlement. I deserve these expensive clothes, I deserve this extra piece of pie, I deserve this extra attention that I am not getting elsewhere. Inauthenticity breads a lack of integrity.

I’ve fooled myself into thinking that I have been placing my BS’s needs above mine for years by remaining silent about my own needs, convincing myself that I don’t have needs or opinions, especially needs or opinions that would conflict with my BS’s because what if he doesn’t like what I have to say and if he doesn’t like what I have to say then that must mean he doesn’t love me! If I can’t live up to his idea of me, his expectations of me, if I'm not perfect, then he won’t love me. So I learned to keep my voice to myself, to hide the thoughts, feelings, and actions that I thought would create any conflict or tarnish his view of me. This manifests with humongous things, like my affair, and small things, like choosing a restaurant:

BS: Let’s go out for dinner.

Me: That sounds great. I am really in the mood for a beer.

BS: Where do you want to go?

Me: I don’t know. You pick (thinks to self: I don’t want you to be unhappy with the place I pick).

BS: Let’s go to this place (suggests a restaurant that doesn’t have beer).

Me: Ok! That sounds great (thinks to self: I don’t need a beer anyways).

It seems like such a silly, trivial example, but it plays out in every aspect of my life. And as a result my voice has been whittled down to the softest whisper inside my head, drowned out by a much louder, much more paranoid voice, “What does your BS want? What is he thinking? What does he want you to say? Don’t fuck up. Pleeeease don’t fuck up. OMG you’re fucking up. Why can’t you fucking figure this out and stop fucking up?!”

It takes an enormous amount of effort to quiet this noise in my head – to pluck each thought that isn’t mine out of my head until I find the thought that is mine. And it whispers to me, and I question it. And it whispers a little louder, and I question it. And then it FINALLY speaks the fuck up and I convince myself “Yes! That IS what I’m thinking! That IS what I’m feeling! That IS my truth!” And by the time I find my voice, it has taken me so long that my BS believes I MUST be lying, I MUST still be hiding from him. How can I NOT KNOW what I am thinking? How can I torture him with uncertainty and waffling when I MUST know what I’m trying to say?

It infuriates him and frustrates me. I get even more anxious when my BS is waiting for an answer, sometimes asking leading questions that make me doubt myself even more…well, I thought I was thinking about pancakes, but because you think I’m thinking about waffles, then you are probably right…but wait? Am I thinking about waffles? Now I’m not so sure, but if I say I’m thinking about waffles and later realize I was actually thinking about pancakes all along, then I’m a liar…and by then adrenaline has kicked in and my whisper of a voice has fled the scene, leaving both me and my BS angry and frustrated...and hungry for pancakes and waffles.

So back to the notion of "giving more." I realized that my work in this area has been totally misguided. I’ve been operating under the assumption that I just need to completely silence my own needs in order to put my BS’s needs above mine in perpetuity. In other words – I’ve inadvertently steered myself farther in the opposite direction I should be going (Do absolutely everything you can possibly do so he doesn’t have to do it, and don’t ask for anything!). And now I need to learn how to give differently, more authentically. I need to find and share my voice with my BS wholeheartedly - to be more vulnerable with him - so he can really see me and trust me and know without question that I will ferociously guard his heart. This is the kind of giving that doesn’t breed resentment, the kind of giving I want to spend the rest of my life learning and doing. I see that with much more clarity now than ever before.

[This message edited by Flawed at 12:23 PM, February 7th (Thursday)]

Waywards need boundaries too, even when it comes to the BS. Try a copy of Unhealthy Helping: A Psychological Guide to Overcoming Codependence, Enabling, and Other Dysfunctional Giving by Shawn Burn.

Thanks for the recommendation, ChamomileTea. I will check out that book.

I just thought of something I wanted to add/clarify. I sort of conflated giving more of myself to my BS with placing his needs above my own. I think those are two different things, but I think that by finding my authentic voice, the way I approach giving and putting him first will be more authentic too.

So back to the notion of "giving more." I realized that my work in this area has been totally misguided. I’ve been operating under the assumption that I just need to completely silence my own needs in order to put my BS’s needs above mine in perpetuity. In other words – I’ve inadvertently steered myself farther in the opposite direction I should be going (Do absolutely everything you can possibly do so he doesn’t have to do it, and don’t ask for anything!). And now I need to learn how to give differently, more authentically. I need to find and share my voice with my BS wholeheartedly - to be more vulnerable with him - so he can really see me and trust me and know without question that I will ferociously guard his heart. This is the kind of giving that doesn’t breed resentment, the kind of giving I want to spend the rest of my life learning and doing. I see that with much more clarity now than ever before.

I think this understanding demonstrates a bit more personal growth on your part. While I don't think there's anything wrong with putting your spouse first, there's a difference between putting them first and acting as if you don't have wants or needs or opinions. The former is saying that this person is the most important person in my life and that I want to treat them accordingly, while the latter is unhealthy and at its core, dishonest. I can understand why someone who has an unhealthy view of what being a good partner constitutes would conflate giving to their spouse with silencing themselves. That you were able to understand this is a good starting point.

All that being said, I do think you owe a debt that can never be repaid. How exactly does one repay their spouse for stealing years of their life and trapping them in a reality they probably wouldn't have chosen for themselves had they been given the truth? The answer is that you can't. All you can do is be damn sure to give them your best every day for as long as you're together. Make the choice each morning when you wake up to do what you can to mitigate the unfairness and injustice of what you've done to them. Show them love and affection, be thoughtful and helpful, be honest and authentic, protect and comfort them when they're having a shitty, triggery day, treat their heart with the kind of care you always should've. Show them that even though you've caused them more pain than you'll ever be able to understand that you'll always treasure the second chance you've been given.

Doing all of that doesn't require that you silence your own voice and pretend as if you don't have opinions or wants or needs of your own. You can and should express them and as your BS continues to heal, he'll become more able to take them into account and meet them.

That's an interesting insight. I actually think a lot of married people do what you describe, then feel angry and resentful when their spouse isn't appreciative of the "sacrifice" they make. Of course, the "receiving" spouse is usually totally unaware that the "sacrificing" spouse is doing this, and also usually unaware of the resentment that can foment in the wake of the unrecognized and unappreciated largesse.

While I don't think there's anything wrong with putting your spouse first, there's a difference between putting them first and acting as if you don't have wants or needs or opinions. The former is saying that this person is the most important person in my life and that I want to treat them accordingly, while the latter is unhealthy and at its core, dishonest. I can understand why someone who has an unhealthy view of what being a good partner constitutes would conflate giving to their spouse with silencing themselves.

I like how succinctly you tied this together. I am trying to be more mindful of putting his needs first because he is the most important person in my life, because I want to and because I love him. Where I see myself tripping up, where I see a potential breeding ground for resentment is believing that I don't have any needs or opinions (my IC refers to this as having invisible needs) or that my needs and opinions don't matter. I want to be able to give wholeheartedly and be able to identify and express my thoughts and needs more freely, as you articulated in your post.

All that being said, I do think you owe a debt that can never be repaid. How exactly does one repay their spouse for stealing years of their life and trapping them in a reality they probably wouldn't have chosen for themselves had they been given the truth? The answer is that you can't. All you can do is be damn sure to give them your best every day for as long as you're together. Make the choice each morning when you wake up to do what you can to mitigate the unfairness and injustice of what you've done to them. Show them love and affection, be thoughtful and helpful, be honest and authentic, protect and comfort them when they're having a shitty, triggery day, treat their heart with the kind of care you always should've. Show them that even though you've caused them more pain than you'll ever be able to understand that you'll always treasure the second chance you've been given.

Thank you so much for this. You are right, and I want to be the person you describe. I will be the person you describe. I'm going to put this paragraph somewhere I can see it every single day.

That's an interesting insight. I actually think a lot of married people do what you describe, then feel angry and resentful when their spouse isn't appreciative of the "sacrifice" they make. Of course, the "receiving" spouse is usually totally unaware that the "sacrificing" spouse is doing this, and also usually unaware of the resentment that can foment in the wake of the unrecognized and unappreciated largesse.

This was most certainly the dynamic between my parents. I guess I learned this from my mother who learned it from her mother. My mom recently told me this heartbreaking story of how her mom would make her do everything last at her birthday parties when she was a kid. She was the last to hit the pinata, the last to get a piece of cake. Her mom taught her with words and actions that her needs should always come last, after everyone else was taken care of. My mom said she always wondered why other kids got to go first at their birthday parties but she didn't, so I think her resentment began brewing very early in life.

My mom dropped out of college when she got pregnant with my older sister, got married, and had two kids by the time she was 24 years old. She became a stay-at-home mom while my dad finished school and then went on to build a career. I think by the time she had kids she had already completely lost sight of who she wanted to be and what she wanted in life. She gave all that up or lost sight of it in order to take care of our family. Maybe she never had it in sight to begin with. She believed it was her responsibility to do everything and never ask for help. She resented my dad for not helping her parent when we were young, and that he was a workaholic. Every once in awhile my mom would completely boil over and lash out with passive aggression. She still does this from time to time.

I think she has let the resentment fester and eat away at her throughout her whole life, and now I see her as a victim of her own making. It frustrates me and creates tension between us. I just want her to DO SOMETHING about it. Take charge, own her shit, and stop being the victim. It's one of the many reasons I want to fix the broken things inside of me - so that I don't fall back on the unhealthy habits I learned from my FOO.

I really want to thank you for your recent posts, Flawed. There's so much in then with which I identify (and I already identified with you in many ways, because our "years later" circumstances are so similar.

*Edited because I posted by accident in mid thought, will repost balance when finished*

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 1:25 PM, February 8th (Friday)]

I get even more anxious when my BS is waiting for an answer, sometimes asking leading questions that make me doubt myself even more…well, I thought I was thinking about pancakes, but because you think I’m thinking about waffles, then you are probably right…but wait? Am I thinking about waffles? Now I’m not so sure, but if I say I’m thinking about waffles and later realize I was actually thinking about pancakes all along, then I’m a liar…and by then adrenaline has kicked in and my whisper of a voice has fled the scene, leaving both me and my BS angry and frustrated...

Wow. Yes.

This reminds me of both DDay 1 and DDay 2. After DDay 1, I had admitted that I slept with OM and ended the PA, but I was in the deluded "we can still be friends" mindset and refusing to go NC. BBF, understandably, hated OM and wanted me to hate him, too. I kept trying to explain that I didn't want to be with OM, I wanted BBF, but that didn't mean I didn't care at all what happened to OM. I had been the pursuer, I had made him care about me, and it would be wrong to walk away without a backward glance. Secretly, in my own mind, I knew that I would go NC if my BBF delivered an ultimatum beteeen "friendship with OM or relationship with me," but BBF was afraid to do that and was doing the pick me dance. So we were caught in the toxicity of my cake eating, as I kept feeding off the validation of the OM's pining for me while congratulating myself that I had definitively ended the A.

As time went on, and BBF kept returning to the topic of my emotional attachment to OM, I got more and more confused. BBF could see how OM had manipulated me, and he was developing a pretty strong rational argument that was slamming into my cognitive dissonance. I was clinging to my romantic idea of what the A meant, but I was starting to see what logic should have made me feel and to want to appease BBF by feeling what he wanted me to feel. I wanted to "fix" what I had done and to appease BBF, OM and my own conscience, which was literally impossible. I had no idea which belief aligned with my authentic voice, even if I was prepared to let go of the outcome and be honest, which I was not.

By DDay 2, the lies I had told BH and myself were so ingrained that I experienced the "pancake or waffle" phenomenon almost constantly. Even after I committed to the full truth, I couldn't be sure I was delivering it. "What did I say then? What did I do next? I think I did this, but that makes no sense. Does it make no sense because I'm remembering wrong, or does it make no sense because all rational thought processes were suspended during the A? I swear I'm trying to tell the unvarnished truth, but is the truth I'm telling really just a lie I sold myself long ago? I need to be sure! I need to be sure because the TT has given me no credibility at all, and I'm not going to get another chance. But I'm not sure. I can't remember. How can I not remember something that important? Is it gone forever, or just not something I'm ready to see?"

It's all my own fault, of course. I'm not making excuses for the circumstances. But boy, do I identify with not being able to know if I'm speaking in an authentic voice, even when I'm 100% committed to telling the truth.

BraveSirRobin - thanks for sharing. I can relate to everything you wrote. I might have a more articulate reply but I am struggling today.

I don't even know how to succinctly summarize. After months of counseling it's become clear I have major codependency issues. Maybe this was already evident to others, but it's really hard to see yourself clearly. I guess it's linked to my issues with conflict avoidance in that I will agree with others to avoid conflict even when I actually disagree. In my relationship with my BS, I will abandon my view and agree with him to make him happy, to avoid conflict. I'm working on finding and trusting my voice and using it, but gently and with thoughtful intention (easier said than done).

There have been a few interactions with my BS over the past week when I've tried to use my voice, and it really hasn't gone well. It's not easy, and I'm shaky at it, and shakier because our relationship is far from being on solid ground.

Last night, my BS asked me if he satisfies me. I said he does more than that, that he fulfills me. I thought about that a lot and thought I could have said it better. When he got home this afternoon during our kids' nap time, we cuddled up and I told him that I am working on being able to be fulfilled on my own, and that he is the icing on the cake in my life, that I could not imagine a better partner. We had a long talk in which I tried to convince him again that my affair and lies had nothing to do with him, and everything to do with my faults that allowed me to make the decisions to cheat and lie. he feels like if I loved him more, If he was more attractive, more anything, then I would have thought about him and not cheated. I feel as though I cannot convince him otherwise (which is understandable) but I will keep trying. This conversation triggered him and instead of having sex we had a fight. I apologized sincerely for starting the conversation and triggering him, when I also really wanted to use our precious time together to make love. He got really upset and angry and told me that I am incapable of thinking about anyone but myself, that I will never be able to predict how he's going to feel when I say something, and that I have no empathy.

This is where I disagreed with him. I said that I was actually really thinking of him when I told him about being the icing in my life, that I wanted to show him I'm working on becoming safe and that he is the ideal partner for me - I do not want to live my life with anyone else. I told him I agreed that I might never be able to predict how he feels or reacts to things I say. I'm working on this, but I will never be a mind reader.

i think he was really disappointed that we spent time talking about painful stuff instead of having sex, and since I started the conversation it was my fault. I have some serious timing issues (really really wish I would have kept my mouth shut and just gone straight to ravaging him as I had planned) and although I thought what I said would make him feel good and secure, I see how it came off as "I don't need you anymore." I feel so incredibly awful about that.

As he got angrier, I fell into old habits (ugh!) and said that he looked like he had something on his mind and I thought it would be ok to say what I did. Damn. I can't believe I did that. I felt the conflict escalating and I tried to back out by blaming him - seriously feel so, so awful about that. I apologized immediately, but not loud or thoroughly enough so I don't think he heard me.

The conflict escalated even more and he started telling me how worthless his whole life is, what a joke it is. I said I would never agree with him that his life is worthless. I wish I had said, I understand why it feels like that but I don't believe your life is worthless. I wish I would have reached beneath his words and tried to connect with his pain. I kept apologizing for what I said, for triggering him, and for blaming him for saying what I said. But when he's that angry I feel like nothing I say gets through to him to de-escalate the emotions. And when I assert some of my own opinions into our discussion it seems to make things worse. I know I can do so much better, I'm trying really hard to do better.

I feel like he has so much unbearable pain, and I want more than anything to be able to take it away. Im going to keep working on me and doing everything I can to love him and be kind and gentle and open and honest and more authentic - to give him an environment conducive to healing. When my heart is in the right place like it was today, and I still upset him, I feel powerless to ease the pain I've caused.

He is planning on staying in a hotel tonight. I am so sad about how this afternoon unfolded and that I can't change the past and that I damaged the person I love most beyond comprehension.

[This message edited by Flawed at 5:08 AM, February 17th (Sunday)]

Hey Flawed, sorry the two of you are having a bad day. Just don't lose sight of the fact that healing from this kind of betrayal is a long process and that there will be no shortage of bad days to come. Remind yourself that there are other WWs on this site whose husbands were still angry and in pain and whose marriages were still struggling 1, 2, 3+ years post-DDay. Like everyone here says, it's a marathon, not a sprint. DDay is still very recent and for a personality like CBM's where there's a strong desire for justice and retribution, anger is going to be an emotion you see plenty of.

Keep working on understanding and empathizing, keep working on making yourself safe for him, and keep reaffirming your commitment and love even on the worst of days.

I'm so sorry, Flawed.

Part of the problem here is that what a BS needs can be an inherent contradiction. They are in so much pain from our actions that they need immediate, complete authenticity -- and also carefully chosen words that avoid triggers and misunderstandings. And I really do mean they need this, not that they are being deliberately petty or unreasonable. They're using every ounce of energy to hold themselves together, and they sometimes don't have a lot left over for cutting the WS any slack.

That being said, it's a unicorn WS who has the ability to be both authentic and considered in every word that comes out of their mouth. In your case and mine, where the lies were so long and so deep, I think authenticity matters more than finding exactly the right words. It's better to say the wrong thing sometimes than to parse every phrase in our heads beforehand. Our history of speaking carefully to avoid consequences is not a mark in our favor; it's the tendency that got us, and more importantly ours BSes, into this mess in the first place.

All you can do is your best from this point forward. It's terrifying to think that it may not be enough, but you can't be superhuman, no matter how much you wish you could.

(((Flawed)))

Hi Flawed, sorry to hear about the tough day for you and your BH. I have had many of those discussions. They seem to star innocently enough, but can go sideways very quickly.

My WW was and still is very conflict avoidant. This is something her and her IC have been working on. For me, I know my wife needs to be able to voice her concerns, wants, desires, etc. and under "normal" circumstances, maybe it doesnt turn into anything other than a small spat.

For the first few months after my WW finished TT'ing me, I would strike back when she would "find her voice". She would immediately shut down and just agree with me which made me more angry. I have had to really check myself and allow my WW to speak her mind and to try to make her comfortable with it. Not everything in our relationship goes back to her A's.

This is really difficult and I wish I had advise to give you, but, IMHO, your BH has to understand that your voice and feelings on your relationship matter. At first, when her IC started working with my WW on this specific issue, it did not go over well with me. However, over time (few months), and with me making concerted efforts to check my anger at the door, we have started to be able to have those "normal" husband and wife discussions without it becoming about the A's.

Flawed, how are you doing?

BSR – Thank you for checking in. I’m sure it comes at no surprise that we continue to experience the highs and lows of the worst rollercoaster ever.

That being said, it's a unicorn WS who has the ability to be both authentic and considered in every word that comes out of their mouth. In your case and mine, where the lies were so long and so deep, I think authenticity matters more than finding exactly the right words. It's better to say the wrong thing sometimes than to parse every phrase in our heads beforehand. Our history of speaking carefully to avoid consequences is not a mark in our favor; it's the tendency that got us, and more importantly ours BSes, into this mess in the first place.

All you can do is your best from this point forward. It's terrifying to think that it may not be enough, but you can't be superhuman, no matter how much you wish you could.

I am so not that unicorn WS who can be both authentic and considered in every word. I’m striving for that, but I have a long ways to go to get there. I’m trying to do my best, but I struggle with knowing whether I actually am or not. When I do or say something that hurts my BS’s feelings, sometimes it’s because I’m really, really trying to get better at communicating my thoughts and feelings to him and I have trouble articulating in a way that makes sense to him or I have bad timing (or both), and sometimes it’s because I fall back into old, impulsive habits (the What The Hell Was I Thinking?! Fuckups). Since I still occasionally fall back, does that mean I’m not doing my best? I’ve struggled with “all of nothing” thinking my whole life and I’m trying to get out of that mindset. I think this is an example of where I get trapped in it. I have to fight the tendency to think of myself as a complete failure for having these setbacks.

One thing I am getting better at is that I mostly avoid slipping into the pit of deep, all-consuming shame when I trip and fall into my own shit. The main way I’ve been able to do this is by redirecting my energy into dissecting what happened to try and understand why I tripped so I can hopefully avoid tripping over the same stumbling block in the future. This is super annoying to my BS, which is understandable. Why should he have to hear personal revelations and proposed solutions from the person who traumatized him? When I do something to hurt him, what he needs more than anything is to be heard, to feel validated, to receive empathy in the form of a sincere apology. So that’s what I’m trying to focus on now instead of going into my “intellectual processing and problem solving” mode that only seems to create more distance between us.

It’s so hard to fight the urge to explain myself, especially when something crystallizes, and I realize “Ooooh that’s why I did that dumb thing.” I am trying to do more of this kind of processing with my IC and in my journal to spare him what probably feels like empty promises of improvement. It’s really, really hard. And yes, sometimes I do wish I was superhuman and there was some sort of “easy” button I could push to fix all my shit, but I realize that’s a cop out, a way to escape facing my own truths and getting to work.

Jameson1977 – Thanks for sharing your experience with me.

My WW was and still is very conflict avoidant. This is something her and her IC have been working on. For me, I know my wife needs to be able to voice her concerns, wants, desires, etc. and under "normal" circumstances, maybe it doesnt turn into anything other than a small spat.

For the first few months after my WW finished TT'ing me, I would strike back when she would "find her voice". She would immediately shut down and just agree with me which made me more angry. I have had to really check myself and allow my WW to speak her mind and to try to make her comfortable with it. Not everything in our relationship goes back to her A's.

This is really difficult and I wish I had advise to give you, but, IMHO, your BH has to understand that your voice and feelings on your relationship matter. At first, when her IC started working with my WW on this specific issue, it did not go over well with me. However, over time (few months), and with me making concerted efforts to check my anger at the door, we have started to be able to have those "normal" husband and wife discussions without it becoming about the A's.

I could not agree with you more when you say “This is really difficult.” I’m having a really hard time finding the right balance between being authentic, open, and honest in sharing my inner world with putting my BS’s needs first, which in his own words typically means being more careful about the words I use to express myself and when I choose to share with him. I kinda feel like I keep repeating myself about this, and I guess it’s because it’s such a big fucking deal and I am realizing how incredibly difficult it’s going to be for me to achieve.

My bad framing and timing issues often create conflict, which I feel very ill-equipped to manage since my instincts are to do whatever it takes to avoid or quickly end the conflict. For now I’m taking baby steps by resisting my programmed impulse to shutdown or withdraw or explode with frustration (I failed miserably at this over the weekend). I’m also trying to get better at being present in the conflict and understanding my BS’s point of view and not getting defensive. And, when I honestly disagree with something he says, I’m trying to be more open about that. All of this is really hard.

Dissecting and putting your whole self back together is completely overwhelming, so I have found it helpful to heed the advice of countless posts that talk about change being incremental. It does seem slightly more manageable and doable when I break it down into smaller bites.

BS: Let’s go out for dinner.

Me: That sounds great. I am really in the mood for a beer.

BS: Where do you want to go?

Me: I don’t know. You pick (thinks to self: I don’t want you to be unhappy with the place I pick).

BS: Let’s go to this place (suggests a restaurant that doesn’t have beer).

Me: Ok! That sounds great (thinks to self: I don’t need a beer anyways).

It seems like such a silly, trivial example, but it plays out in every aspect of my life. And as a result my voice has been whittled down to the softest whisper inside my head, drowned out by a much louder, much more paranoid voice, “What does your BS want? What is he thinking? What does he want you to say? Don’t fuck up. Pleeeease don’t fuck up. OMG you’re fucking up. Why can’t you fucking figure this out and stop fucking up?!”

Yes, these little things add up. And, you know what in the example you give (which played out hundreds of times in our relationship) - I learned not only should I have just picked something...my husband LOVES it when I pick something.

I heard my little voice the other day. It was time to get a new car for me. Keep in mind, I bring in half the money. H has exactly the vehicle he wants (and it was expensive) and we are pretty financially secure (not rich by any means, but we are older folk who made some good investments and with only one kid left in college have little hanging over our head).

So, does it really matter what I pick? No it doesn't. A normal person with a normal brain would go look at what they are interested in and choose. I went a few different times, narrowed it down. H thought I made a good choice on Brand name and type. So, it was narrowed down enough to make the purchase.

I went and tried to find the cheapest base model to start, and then even when I picked the color and he expressed it wasn't his favorite I wavered. At some point, I got myself together and instead of settling (as to not seem too materialistic or not frugal enough), I just stopped myself. I went to a mid-range model and bought it in the color H hated but that I fell in love with. Heck, I even had to inconvenience the salesperson, I would have never done that before.

And THIS was a big step for me. To shut out all the voices and just go with what I truly wanted. The car is now kind of a symbol to me when I look at it, it's the first car I have owned in my adult life that I feel represents my tastes and personality. Is it because I had a controlling husband? No, not even close. It's because I perceived him to want me to be X so I was X.

And, it's not like I don't have it in me to make decisions. I am in a top management position. I am not like this at work at all. I tell people what I want them to do here all the time. In my personal life I never have felt empowered. Because I chose not to be. What a waste.

My H loves it. He absolutely loves it. He's wanted me to have a voice all along, and he doesn't understand why I couldn't express myself this way before. (even though these are sort of stupid examples and I could probably dig deeper and give more emotional ones) I walked around feeling like he never really saw me...and it's because I never showed him me fully. I then turned around and blamed him. It was so very shortsighted!

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:02 PM, February 26th (Tuesday)]

Hikingout - That is a fantastic anecdote, and I could absolutely see myself experiencing the internal conflict of wanting one thing but feeling the pressure to choose something else based on BS's preferences.

I chuckled when I read this:

Heck, I even had to inconvenience the salesperson, I would have never done that before.

My BS saw this and it made him think of me too because I have major hangups about this. Whenever I receive something different from what I order at a restaurant, I never want to speak up about it. My BS has made fun of me for this for years. He will often speak up on my behalf which is part annoying (I'm not a damsel in distress) and part relief (oh thank goodness I didn't have to be the bad guy). I've gotten much better about this, but I still get that twinge of angst or guilt about having to inconvenience the server.

Anyhow, I love that you picked the exact car that you wanted and I can appreciate how amazing and gratifying it must feel every time you get into it - knowing that you chose you and really, truly feeling good about it.

[This message edited by Flawed at 9:59 AM, February 27th (Wednesday)]

With regards to empathy, have you and your BS fully discussed how you would feel if your histories had been reversed? if he was the one who had the affair in the past. how would you genuinely feel about it? how much would you care? if he had an affair/ONS now, how much of an issue would it be for you? surely this all shouldn't be too much of a leap of the imagination. i don't see a better way of discovering empathy.