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The false DV charges alone was all I had to know about your WW to be able to say RUN for the hills now !!! and never look back and yes tell EVERYONE why you're ending the M since the embarrassment was the only thing she tried to avoid when she falsely accused you of DV.

[This message edited by Buster123 at 10:51 PM, November 29th (Thursday)]

I wanted desperately to keep the marriage, but on many levels I knew D was the answer for me. And with each passing day, the requirements I needed for R grew more and more. He never filed or lifted a finger to help with the D. In fact he was very passive about the whole thing. He never was actively obstructive, and many times he said his heart wasn't in D. So just like I had worked on the whole marriage by myself, I had to work out the whole D.

I also have no kids and no significant assets to divide. In many ways it is a relief. I realize I don't love him as he is. I love him as I thought he was. And I was very attached to my old life. Change is hard. I'm not particularly liking the growing pains, but I am doing things to grow my self. I think that's a good thing for you to do, too.

@Phoenix1 - talking at nausea with friends has helped me realized some things about her during our M pre-A, things that really alarm me and should have been a red flag. Her ability to let men talk to her and not say shes married, going out with old flames and not giving me the details on who these people are. She never stood up for me or our M.

@Simplicity - I miss her, I miss the image of her. Its like something took over her body and used her face and body to do these horrible things. I used to think love conquered all, but really she would have stopped, stopped the drinking, the lies, the police. Her embarrassment ended my life for a year, it should be ending soon in Feb and as soon as I start working again. I know I need to leave. Spending time in an empty bed sucks, but its better than this stabbed in the heart feeling knowing she did everything in her power to destroy me. I remember so often he would ask her to deny me sex and come over, to pick a fight and meet him, how he wanted to mess around in our bed (I'm still not sure if that happened) she didnt just kill our love and out future, she set out to humiliate me at his enjoyment. Thats how little I meant to her.

She keeps saying she was broken and she will never do it again, but I already see the writing on the wall.

Im not the same man she married because I don't extend love and attention as often, she seeks it somewhere else. Like she did before, shell justify it however she did the first time.

You can still love someone and still recognize they are toxic for you and it is best to cut them loose. That comes from deep self-reflection, looking at what they have done, and deciding if they have done all the necessary work to repair their inner brokenness or not. If they have, then you decide if you want to give the gift of reconciliation. If they haven't, that doesn't mean you don't love them any less, but it is a recognition that they are still not a safe partner and you need to get them out of your life so you don't continue to spiral down the marital toilet. Staying with a toxic person, regardless of whether it is "attachment" or "love," is unhealthy for you.

Read this again and again ^^^^^^^

I think this part is what is so hard for a BS to understand. We have invested so much into this person that we "thought" they were that it is very hard to see how truly horrible they have been. Also when you live with someone, sleep in the same bed, have that same person whispering in your ear, day after day after day... you start to believe them.

Getting away from them, going NC will keep giving you alot of clarity. If your friends have seen it and your family has seen it and they all tried to warn you or say something to you and you did not listen, then this is a toxic person. Keep working on you and finding your center again. Away from her.

I'm sorry you're struggling with this, and I totally get where you're coming from. Something you said I really identify with:

Its like something took over her body and used her face and body to do these horrible things.

I think that's a big part of what I have struggled with too. On the one hand, it's this person you loved, more than anyone else, for lots of good reasons. Maybe they felt like your soulmate. And how could that most beloved person really do such horrible things? It's a form of denial, I think. I don't think it has to be totally black and white, a person can be loveable and also impossible to be with - because they are sick and do sick things. That is something my IC told me - love can be unconditional, but relationships aren't.

It is super sad to let go of someone you really and truly love, but that's the only way to also let go of the pain they continuously put you through. Like your WW, my WH simply chooses to remain broken. He just went back to be with his OW... and said things like, we are still family, I love you more than I can say, still refuses to take off his wedding ring, saying that she has no say in it. WTF

Once you heal from the years of pain she's caused you, you will be happier for sure. That's what I also hope for me too.

Please go on your personal site and read what I just read. She is very dangerous. You need to move on ASAP and do not look back.

My personal site?

@ZoeS ya she hasnt taken her wedding ring off, nor did she ever. Her AP loved the fact she was screwing around on me, he mentioned me a lot in their texting.

I tried to talk to her this morning, Its day 3 I couldn't sleep and I asked her if she had nightmares anymore "Nope" I asked if she felt bad about what she did "Sure" and I just wasn't feeling a connection, I lastly asked how do you feel about the person you were looking back "uuhhhh..bad" She jumped out of bed, and said this fight was all my fault. She asked if asking these questions helped me with anything, I said they did and they're helping me process what she did. She screamed no, they dont help or I would be over it by now (9mo from Dday) and she went to work. Another day with questions, another day alone with no answers.

I am guessing that the entirety of my response falls into the category of "do what I say, not what I did." Many of us had a situation similar to yours... mine was perhaps more unpleasant than most (this reminds me, I need to update my story).

How do I know if what I'm feeling is attachment or love?

Ask yourself this... do you love the person that she is or the person that you think that she is?

I kept assuming that my STBXWW was a good person who did something bad. But, in reality, she is a bad person who did something bad. She is a narcissist. She does not apologize for her affair. She blames me for her affair. She blames me for our divorce.

How did I figure out that I only loved the person that I thought that she was? Well, first, she decided that she wanted a divorce and we did in-house separation. By in-house separation, I mean that we barely spoke to each other. Distance helps.

The other thing that I did most recently (while preparing for my divorce mediation)... was I looked at our text messages from prior to D-day. She had accused me of being mean, being a bad father, a bad husband, etc. She was re-writing history in making those accusations. Instead, I read a 16-month conversation between two very functional parents, two people who got along really well, and two people who seemingly had a good marriage. More importantly, I saw no evidence of the mean, grumpy, controlling husband that she claimed that I was.

After D are y'all happier? We have no kids, no joint property, I'm 33 and shes 31.

I have kids, so it's a little different for me. But, we have a temporary verbal agreement on child custody. The first time that I had the kids on my own... felt so good. I was so happy. I took care of my kids and we had a great time, all because the shadow of my STBXWW was not there.

Im trying to listen to my friends, all of them have said this woman is just bad for me. Why can't I see it?

This is the absolutely irrefutable sign that you need to RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN. And then, when you finish this... RUN some more.

Your friends (your real friends, mind you: the ones that you trust totally) are looking out for you. They can see how toxic she is for you, far better than you. Listen to your friends.

Did you know right away you wanted D? Do you feel validated by D and haven't looked back?

I didn't want to D. I refused to D for two years after D-day, even as she repeatedly and cruelly emotionally abused me. Eventually, she decided that she had had enough and she decided to D. This was, unfortunately, the nicest thing that she ever did for me (albeit unintentional).

Part of her re-writing of history was to claim that I was exhibiting depression symptoms that I did not have prior to D-day (which is why reading our old text messages has been so informative to me).

I am what people at SI call co-dependent. I prefer to think that I am a people pleaser. Meaning, I want to make my spouse happy and in return, I get personal happiness from making my spouse happy. My personality is EXCEPTIONALLY DANGEROUS to pair with a narcissist because narcissists are never happy... they are always complaining that you are not quite good enough.

In my case, the people-pleaser/narcissist combination drove me into a very bad depression post D-day. I attempted suicide in August 2017... and I spent November 2017-April 2018 aggressively wanting to die every day. Ergo, it is not an exaggeration to say that the people-pleaser/narcissist combination is dangerous: it literally almost killed me.

I know, I keep trying to write the whole thing out and it just, she gave me one serious gift after her A and it was rage, I've never felt rage before. So when I write it out, that's all I feel, I just am drifting in this void until I can work again, I will reevaluate how I feel.

Let me encourage you to see a therapist, who can teach you skills to deal with your rage.

Im seriously asking for help in maybe someone has a similar mindset or insight into what is going on in my life?

After everything that I wrote, I am still in favor of R over D, just not for me and my STBXWW. In order for her to be a candidate for R (and you don't have to try... you are totally justified in going D!), she needs to own her mistakes, accept all of the blame for her affair, and actively seek to make amends. There is nothing (NOTHING!!) that you have written to suggest that she is a candidate for R.

The last 5 days I've been angry, I still font get a reason why she did this, why when faced with a man telling her to get naked she obeyed, she would leave our bed and go to him, to obey his orders to show up when he said. Its all "I don't know" and "I cant remember" she doesn't peruse me, she feels hurt I'm hurting and doesn't extend herself.

Because she is a narcissist. I hate to tell you this and you probably won't believe me (because I sure as hell wouldn't have), but she doesn't care about you at all. She cares about herself and how she feels in this moment. She's very simple. And she's very very sick.

Really shes devolved into what she was pre-A, shes really not changed. Shes broken NC 3 times since Dday all alcohol fueled, her last message is when I asked for separation and she got drunk at 8am and messaged him on snapchat with "Im, just so disappointed" and he never responded.

Uh, yeah, see my above comment about her being a narcissist.

In my heart of hearts I know I won't ever get past this, I think shes like a hot pan and everytime I touch her I get burned. Im just struggling with how much I loved her and how I really am codependent.

Yeah, I understand. Totally, 100%. I wish you could understand what I understand... but it's kind of like the Matrix. I can't make you believe that it exists... you have to figure it out on your own. I hope that I can guide you on your way.

talking at nausea with friends has helped me realized some things about her during our M pre-A, things that really alarm me and should have been a red flag. Her ability to let men talk to her and not say shes married, going out with old flames and not giving me the details on who these people are. She never stood up for me or our M.

Yeah, she's a narcissist. You want to know why she did those things? Because she only cares about herself and how she feels in that moment.

I miss her, I miss the image of her. Its like something took over her body and used her face and body to do these horrible things. I used to think love conquered all, but really she would have stopped, stopped the drinking, the lies, the police. Her embarrassment ended my life for a year, it should be ending soon in Feb and as soon as I start working again. I know I need to leave. Spending time in an empty bed sucks, but its better than this stabbed in the heart feeling knowing she did everything in her power to destroy me. I remember so often he would ask her to deny me sex and come over, to pick a fight and meet him, how he wanted to mess around in our bed (I'm still not sure if that happened) she didnt just kill our love and out future, she set out to humiliate me at his enjoyment. Thats how little I meant to her.

Yes, you are married to a narcissist and you are a co-dependent. Sorry.

Also, this suggests to me that you are in love with the person that you think that she is... you are not in love with the person who she actually is.

She keeps saying she was broken and she will never do it again, but I already see the writing on the wall.

Man, if I had a nickel...

Im not the same man she married because I don't extend love and attention as often,

I don't know this for sure, but I am guessing that this is 100% complete and total bullshit. You are STILL THE SAME PERSON THAT SHE MARRIED. She is re-writing the narrative to feed her narcissistic bullshit.

she seeks it somewhere else. Like she did before, shell justify it however she did the first time.

100% spot-on. She will do it again. And again. And again.

I tried to talk to her this morning, Its day 3 I couldn't sleep and I asked her if she had nightmares anymore "Nope" I asked if she felt bad about what she did "Sure" and I just wasn't feeling a connection, I lastly asked how do you feel about the person you were looking back "uuhhhh..bad" She jumped out of bed, and said this fight was all my fault. She asked if asking these questions helped me with anything, I said they did and they're helping me process what she did. She screamed no, they dont help or I would be over it by now (9mo from Dday) and she went to work. Another day with questions, another day alone with no answers.

Oh yeah, complete narcissist. She says that she made a mistake and that she feels bad about it, but then she quickly shifts the blame to you. In fact, it's now YOUR FAULT for not getting over her affair. Again, if I only had a nickel...

In closing, I have a few other comments for you:

1. Going through and commenting on your posts has helped me, thank you. I am still in the middle of this, but seeing someone else go through something very similar is very therapeutic for me.

2. I will guess that at least one, if not both, of your parents is also a narcissist. One of the things that I learned in therapy is that we all tend to pick partners with whom we are comfortable, not who is actually good for us. Do you try to make one of your parents happy on a regular basis but you never quite seem to get there? Yeah, me too (my mom).

3. I am now dating someone else (and dating is something that the folks at SI are strongly discouraging me to do). I specifically looked for and found someone who is not a narcissist, someone who would make me uncomfortable (i.e., someone who was a people-pleaser like me).

The difference so far has been astounding. For example, I cared about my STBXWW, so when she would go out and socialize... I would ask her to check in with me every so often so that I would know that she was okay. My STBXW told me that I was controlling because I asked her to do this.

In contrast, I had a date last night and when it was over... my new girlfriend volunteered to let me know that she got home okay.

4. If you want to do a really "fun" experiment, stop feeding the narcissist your attention. It will literally drive her crazy when you stop making your life all about hers. My STBXWW is not doing well these days. She's spying on me, complaining about me all of the time (more than normal), and telling everyone how awful I am. I just laugh it off because I can now see the Matrix/narcissism.

Good luck. This is awful and I am sorry that you are going through it. But it gets better, I promise.

[This message edited by barcher144 at 11:04 AM, November 30th (Friday)]

You know what you need to do.

You are not responsible for becoming a victim, but you are responsible for remaining one.

Until you get sick and tired of being sick and tired, nothing will change.

Wow thank you so much for posting, I still cant bring myself to write the whole insane story. The gory details, and yes I am codependant, I always have been. I too tried to end my life, twice in the past 2 months and seriously considered it last night before I posted. I still haven't slept but just want this ordeal over. I still cant even THINK of moving out until feb.

We tried IHS, she went nuts. Didnt go to work for 3 days drank from 7a-3pm, called me to the bars to see her. We talked, it was civil. She told me she hopped on tinder and didnt like it (Ya right?) said she had no intention on meeting anyone. We agreed to see where our feelings were and she said she would delete it, and she did.

The next day I snooped and she was not only back on Tinder, but had 3 new matches and conversations. This is after she quit her job and we moved across country.

I think she has an insatiable need to be desired and loved, to have people think she is just walking on sunshine. Both our MC and my IC think she has NPD or BPD, her impulsiveness, her spending, her addictions.

You're right, ive been in many relationships and they've all ended in cheating. This, this was the worst, but I can just FEEL this happening again. If she gets away with this she wont take it as a blessing, its only time till she makes up shes not happy.

The biggest fight we ever had was when she had to find a way to run out the door because he was telling her to come over and do things, she said "You just dont understand my job, its too complex" and I explained her job in detail. She had nothing and just stormed off, blew him, came home and kissed me and said sorry.

Never ever have I needed to call my friends with the frequency or severity I have with her, it was usually "am I being nutso" with an ex but with the WW its "its 9am, shes not at work and I know shes hammered"

Such huge differences.

Should also add, my IC has said I have depression and PTSD. Im a medical professional and kind of laughed it off, but he reminded me ive lost 89lb in 3 weeks. Im not sleeping and cant get out of bed. I think its this new onset of depression and learning to deal with it and the fact we still cohabitate is why these feelings are screwing with me.

I have depression and PTSD.

Yeah, me too.

Well, I did have depression. I haven't had symptoms since May 31, 2018. I am on anti-depressants and I have done a TON of therapy.

I still have PTSD. My STBXWW almost certainly knows this and tries to trigger me into uncontrollable rages. It has worked for her in the past, but now that I can see the Matrix... I just laugh at it.

Even better, I now see the Matrix with respect to my mom too. I called her last Saturday and she was crying and telling me that I was a bad son... blah blah blah... she's just being a narcissist.

The folks at SI tend to use the term "co-dependent" as a negative thing, something that should be avoided. Instead, I'm proud of it, allow it to define me. HOWEVER, now that I can see the Matrix, I can now see the narcissists who take advantage of me.

Ergo, I can be "co-dependent" and happy, all at the same time.

I just read your story man and I am so sorry. I know I need time and space, sadly I can't work till Feb. I can't stand sharing a roof with her, but I know this is lonely talking wanting her to fix it.

I just read your story man and I am so sorry.

Let me guess... my story is eerily familiar? There's a reason why we joke about there being a cheater's handbook.

You are not alone. It does get better... but you need to get out before it does.

[This message edited by barcher144 at 3:09 PM, November 30th (Friday)]

I seem so blind to all those red flags, the excessive drinking, the impulsiveness or new big purchases and tattoos, I know all along that she has NPD and if she wants a feeling she will chase it no matter what.

ImSo, I read your profile. That is what I want you to read. Since we don’t have any emotions invested in this we can see how destructive this is to you.

Sorry for the mixup.

Ah ya. It does help thats why Im here, im losing my mind. I dont even have half the details in there that she did or the previous behavior that caused so many issues in our marriage. I can't stomach typing it all out, I feel like im writing a horror story about marriage and then it hits me like a ton of bricks. THIS IS MY NARRATIVE, this was/is my LIFE.

People used to say how cute we were together, how sweet and people wanted to be like us. All I want to do is grab hold of them and shake them and say NO, this is not what you want. This, this is pain, this is sheer agony and lies.

ImSoLost,

I’m so sorry for what is happening to you. I won’t go into too many details about myself, but I know what you are going through, and you are not alone.

I want you to understand what others are telling you. People with these types of problems (your WW), basically all behave the same. As you read more and more here, you will see that cheaters are cheaters, and narcissism is narcissism.

I spent almost 4 years post affair working my ass off to repair a toxic marriage, only to get a healthy serving of more of the same. You need to Run! Run now! Run fast! Go absolutely 100% 180. You can read about the 180 in the healing library. If I were you, I would go one further...well two further, I would go no contact and file for divorce at the first possible opportunity.

If you need help, or support...come back here as much as necessary. If you need personal support or want to talk about something you may not want to post, PM me anytime, I am here for you.

Be super kind to yourself, you must do the stuff that seems impossible at times like this. The most crucial in my experience, Sleep, eat and hydrate. Get help to sleep from your doctor if you must. If you just can’t eat, make sure you at least hydrate as much as you can. Try as hard as you can not to drink too much, all is does is delay the inevitable...and make you feel like shit.

You’ve got this.