SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

While porn use may not spiral out of control it does do a couple things that a toy can't.

It degrades women, turns them completely into sex objects, nothing but a bunch of holes.

If you think that doesn't carry over to real life you're wrong.

Many of the women in those "harmless" videos are forced to be there, forced to take drugs, forced from a very young age.

I used to be okay with my husbands porn use, I thought it was harmless, but over time (and he was not an addict) it definitely affected how he looked at women. How he thought of them, how it became okay to have an affair.

His porn use made me feel like I could never be enough, I can't compare to those women, I never have never will, it made me self conscious, to the point I no longer enjoyed sex at all.

So if you think you can compare porn to a toy, that's so wrong on so many levels.

There is a study that shows excessive porn use, not occasionally or a few times a month, can train the brain to expect new, different or kinkier sex in real life. It’s not only how porn becomes so addictive to many people, it is one possible reason porn use leads to affairs.

I agree that you can’t speak for every one who uses porn, because not everyone uses in excess. I also agree that solo toy use for masturbation isn’t the same. Toys don’t talk, test, social media post or ruin families. If my husband was using toys on his own, I’d rather that than porn beyond what we see together.

Wait.

If there is ANYTHING a relationship partner is doing, that the other partner is uncomfortable with, they need to discuss it, then set up boundaries.

There are many people who view pornography, but maintain healthy boundaries.

We are posting on an infidelity website. Infidelity happens due to poor boundaries.

I don’t want my WH viewing pornography, since DDay, because I learned he has poor boundaries.

He can beat his meat all he wants, privately, sans skanks, I don’t care.

But pornography? For some, it supports cheating, abuse, deceit. WH has introduced plenty of that into our home.

Infidelity issue aside. I think the common ground is that there are insecurities that are being introduced on both sides that don't need to be. I'd bet he feels like less of a man when his wife uses a toy to satisfy her needs. You in turn feel like you don't measure up when he looks at porn.

This is almost the same issue with varying details. Insecurity in the ability to satisfy each others physical intimacy needs.

Look I understand better than anyone the unfairness that being a BS is. Sometimes compromise works. You offer something on your end and get agreement on theirs. It helps to build some trust which is the foundation to any relationship.

Has he talked to a doctor about getting his T levels checked ? Fairly common issue that is easily resolved with meds. It takes some courage to do that and you should encourage him to do so in a way that doesn't make him feel more insecure.

Insecurity driving their choices to pursue an A is very common. Right ? Not at all. Definitely still a choice. A very damaging one at that. By communicating on this topic maybe it will show him the "correct" way one deals with insecurities in a partnership. Sometimes our spouses are broken and only by leading by example do they grow beyond that brokenness.

Not to sound bipartisan here but both whoiam and losthope have valid points.

I agree with the point that porn can and often does lead to addiction. The same could also be said for alcohol but plenty of people can still enjoy it without it ruining their lives. I think the same could be said about porn too.

Prerecorded videos don't text or call the watcher. The watcher chooses to use the other features of the site when they know it's wrong.

The visual aid of porn just makes getting off 100x easier for men. I don't know if it's the same for women. I've tried watching porn with my wife and it gave her zero excitement.

I would think women like toys because it also makes masterbating easier just like porn does for men. I can't speak for all males but male toys do not interest me at all.

Are they the same? I think so if your considering it as an aid to masturbation but one is definitely more dangerous then the other.

What's acceptable in the relationship is going to come down to the couple. Either one getting off and not satisfying the other partner's sexual needs is a problem that's going to create additional problems for the relationship.

If porn is causing that problem, it has already manifested itself as an addiction in my opinion and has to go.

I don't really understand the whole not letting your wife use toys point of view unless the husband is afraid of being replaced by a mechanical device or it leading to her no longer being satisfied by his package. I'm sure there are some cases where this has happened but I would think for it to be extremely rare.

Feel free to pick apart anything I said. I welcome the debate.

Well, let me start by saying, I fully support both porn and toys. I think both are fine, and both can be used responsibly in a relationship. And I think that both can be harmful if overused or let spiral into addiction. The entire thing comes down to "masturbation aids", women generally prefer physical aids; vibrators, simulated penises, etc where men typically prefer visual aids; porn. Both things help the user have a faster, better, more intense, etc orgasm. Same goal, but tailored for to help in the way that excites the individual sex more effectively. There is porn for women and are toys for men; both are out there and used by some, but crossing over is more rare because the type of stimulation from each is less well suited to improve masturbation for the other sex. Men don't enjoy toys as much as women and women don't enjoy porn as much as men (not all, but in general, and simplistically).

I'm going to pick this post to make the counterpoints, but, it's not because I'm picking on this poster, just that they laid things out neatly so I can respond.

While porn use may not spiral out of control it does do a couple things that a toy can't.

As does a toy. Porn doesn't vibrate at 3000RPM. No man can do that. It's not 10" long and 4" around, very few men can do that. No man can compete with a toy, even if your huge, you don't vibrate/rotate/have patterns, etc. If anything, a toy is more unrealistic than porn; there are people who have sex like you're seeing in porn, the fact your seeing it proves that it's possible. Toys for women are often well into the "this is impossible" territory, far more stimulating that any man could ever be, faster, bigger, more direct, etc.

It degrades women, turns them completely into sex objects, nothing but a bunch of holes.

A lot of female toys are actually disembodied male genitalia. If there's a better way to turn someone into a "sex object" I'm not sure what it would be. Yes, I agree with you, a lot of porn turns women into a collection of genitals, but, so do toys.

Many of the women in those "harmless" videos are forced to be there, forced to take drugs, forced from a very young age.

And many toys are manufactured in China by women who are basically slaves and children. You can choose to pay more and get one from a reputable company that doesn't employ these practices (Lelo, etc). Just like you can avoid porn that features women forced to be there (which is much more likely in gonzo/armature stuff compared to stuff produced by the big companies).

His porn use made me feel like I could never be enough, I can't compare to those women, I never have never will, it made me self conscious, to the point I no longer enjoyed sex at all.

I know I can "never be enough" when compared to a toy. It's a tool, made specifically to get a woman off. No, I'm not going to be able to do that as well as a 110V powered device. I can't compare to a rabbit, never will. But being self-conscious about it my decision, not the toys. Is all my wife wants me for to see how fast and hard I can get her off? If so,well then, yeah, I'm going to be pretty darn upset about toys, because they kind of make me redundant. If not, well then toys don't have a whole lot of impact on me, it's a tool that makes something better/easier.

So if you think you can compare porn to a toy, that's so wrong on so many levels.

I disagree. Go on Amazon, look up and popular female toy and start reading the reviews. Stop when you get to "I never need a man again" or "So much better than any man". It won't take you long. Then go to Google and look up stories of women who've found that toys have made it impossible for them to orgasm manually/with a partner. Sound familiar (porn induced ED)? It's the same thing, same problems, because, porn and toys serve the same purpose (sexual release) for the opposite sex.

Now, all this said, I'm going to get to what I think the root of the issue here is. I think that most women know that most men highly value sex. So, a guy watching porn to replace his wife, in a lot of ways, is replacing more than a woman using a toy to do the same. Let's throw some fake number on it to make it more clear. Let's say that my wife brings +100 happiness points to my life. Those points are spread over a lot of things, our shared memories (+10 points), our talks together (+10 points), our family (+10 points) and sex (+40 points). For her, those +100 points are spread differently, shared memories (+20 points), talks (+15 points), family (+30 points), sex (+10 points). There are a lot of other things too, but I'm doing my best to simply illustrate a point, so stay with me. Me using porn replaces a big part of the happiness that my wife brings from an external source. My wife using a toy replaces some of the happiness, but it's not a big part of it for her, so, it feels less threatening to me. I know she doesn't have me around for sex (in some ways, I wish she did, but that's another discussion). Where, in some ways, sex is one of the most valuable things that my W brings to the relationship. It's very important to me, it brings me a lot of pleasure and fulfillment and makes me bond to her much more than her to me (personal observation here, not generalization). So me replacing that part is threatening to her.

So, in some ways, I do understand. While I'll never agree that porn/toys aren't basically the same thing just packaged differently to excite the different ways each sex enjoys masturbation, masturbation itself is different between the sexes. When I think of my wife doing it, I get excited and want to join in. When my wife things of me doing it, I think she recoils and feels slighted. But it's not porn or a toy that causes that feeling, it's that I know her doing it doesn't really remove much/any of my value in the relationship, she doesn't value sex much anyway. So go ahead, hopefully it'll make her enjoy sex more and want to engage in it more often. Where the opposite it true for me doing it, I value sex highly, so it's much more threatening to her when that part of her value is replaced elsewhere, either with porn or something else.

Awesome post riding.

I've never not wanted sex with WH because of getting myself off or because he's not a toy. That's his fear but it's never happened. But when he used his aid (porn), he then didn't want to have sex with me. That was a lot of negative points.

I didn't honestly have issues with any of this until he admitted he didn't want to have sex with me because he was watching porn and getting himself off while I was at work. Then with the affair (years after the admission), it makes me super uncomfortable.

My WH watched porn earlier into our marriage. I thought nothing of it because I figured a lot of men like to watch it. Unfortunately, that didn't satisfy his growing addiction and he moved on to websites then his friends wife.

In my opinion, sex addiction is like a drug addiction, when one isn't getting the "high" anymore they move on to something else that gets them higher.

Keep your eyes open and watch closely.

One thing I learned post-d-day was how screwed up my wife's sex life with her ex-girlfriend had been before they split. Their version of foreplay, according to my wife, was to each read some porn or erotica(separately), then get each other off. I was kinda shocked, even though I learned this in the context of discussion about the day her ex asked her for sex during their A. I asked about kissing, and attraction, chemistry, heat -- all the things that were a natural part of our sex life. No, it was about having that "O."

I know I hurt that night because of her lying about the sex, and was emotionally distraught, but I remember saying "I don't once recall you or I needing anything but ourselves to have good, no, great sex, do you?" She answered in the affirmative. I recall feeling weirdly sorry they were so "O" focused. They missed so much.

When we first met I was my own very best sex partner. I could spend 1-2 hours with a piece of silicone and some lube and ride arousal for as long as I wanted to. The idea of a quick off was foreign to me. I didn't crave the finish as much as that feeling or being endlessly sexy arousal brings. A porn-to-orgasm sprint sounded so dissatisfying, even sterile. I would often masturbate before a date so I would have that glow, that arousal glow. It was never a substitute for sex.

And their porn use seemed to me a sad substitute for attraction, desire, chemistry, and arousal. And especially intimacy.

So, I am kind of in the camp that porn, in and of itself, can be fun, arousing, or an aid if you have trouble getting aroused, but if used instead of a flesh and blood partner, is a sad substitute. To the exclusion of a partner, it becomes addiction, a sad habit that removes you from the human experience. And that can be sad and very selfish. And same goes for masturbation.

[This message edited by OneInTheSame at 2:24 AM, December 15th (Saturday)]

I've never not wanted sex with WH because of getting myself off or because he's not a toy. That's his fear but it's never happened. But when he used his aid (porn), he then didn't want to have sex with me. That was a lot of negative points.

I think most guys have this fear, although, none I know will admit it. But, as you've said, "it's never happened", and, IMHO, it's a difference between the sexes. If there was a toy that felt better than sex for men, got us off faster, harder, better.. Well, that would be pretty attractive to me (and I suspect a lot of other men), to the point for some that the exclusion of women would seem pretty logical. Why pursue sex (and by proxy, women at all) when this (toy) is better? Because a lot of the value in that pursuit comes from sex (or did for me) and without that carrot, in some cases, the pursuit wouldn't have been worth it. But that's me, not you; but, because that's how I think about it, that gets projected to women. And I know toys are better at getting my W off; so, it can be a bit scary to think I'm so easily replaced. Except that's not a primary value that I bring to the relationship. So, while this is a bit jumbled, the point is, even though I see porn and toys the same, the effects are different because of the value that activity holds for each person.

I didn't honestly have issues with any of this until he admitted he didn't want to have sex with me because he was watching porn and getting himself off while I was at work. Then with the affair (years after the admission), it makes me super uncomfortable.

And a lot of men do this. Porn replaces sex with the W because it's "easy". I had a friend who used to joke about jerking off and say "Yeah, I could go to the wife, but man, that's a lot of work". So you have every right to be uncomfortable with it, especially after an A, but, that's not all (or even most, at least not in my experience) men. I know, speaking personally, I use porn to balance out our sex drives; I want sex a lot more than my W, so, if she's not interested, I'll use porn instead. I never did it "instead of" sex with her though, if she wanted to have sex, that's what I wanted and preferred.

Now, however, it's a bit different for me (because of her A). In a lot of cases, I'd rather use porn because, well frankly, while she'll have sex anytime I want to, it's hard not to think that it's "just for me" and she'd rather be doing something else. She's never said that, and doesn't act that way, but I've just read so many stories of how women "act the part" in an A and wind up having sex they don't want that it's become very difficult not to think that's what my W is doing now. I wonder if any women I've ever slept with wanted to have sex, or if they just wanted me to keep calling them/progress the relationship/get something from me. In short, sex has started to look extremely transactional to me; which, in a lot of ways, has killed the appeal of it. So now, yeah, sometimes I'd rather just watch porn because at least I don't feel guilty afterwards and like I owe my W something for being nice enough to have sex with me.

Rideitout, I am right there with ya. My wife has a low sex drive and clearly only does it for my benefit. Transactional is the right word. Sometimes if she’s had a stressful day, I’ll back off to give her s break. If she’s had a good day? I’ll back off as to not ruin it for her. I would prefer sex > porn, but that’s not possible. I need porn to supplement my sex life. I have a very high sex drive and would happily do it everyday. WW would happily never have sex again (at the old age of 34), so we meet in the middle with 2 times a week.

And I know it seems weird to you women, but I don’t really objectify these porn performers. It’s the same mentality I take when I rarely go to strip clubs. I treat the strippers with respect and professionalism, they’re just doing a job and looking to make some money. I don’t find what they do degrading, and it doesn’t change my expectations of what women should look like or what sex should be like. My wife doesn’t have a porn stars body, and yet I find her to be smokin hot!

Super interesting thread. What makes it even more interesting is that we're all here because someone cheated and yet I find myself ready to defend toys and porn...

My relationship with porn.... up until DDay my relationship with porn was that the mood would strike me to get off and if WW wasn't around I'd take care of it quickly. She pretty much remedied that by letting me take video of her giving me oral. I think my WW is smoking hot and watching her do that is more than enough for me any day of the week. Occasionally WW would mention porn but I don't know if she ever really watched it much. It wouldn't really concern me if she did.

Toys..... I am not a fan of toys meant for men. They don't interest me. WW has a couple of toys that I take no issue with whatsoever. Vibrator, dildo (that vibrates too woohoo!).... neither of them bothers me and I have embraced them as "extras" during sex. She uses them occasionally when I'm not around and that's what I would expect. I'd rather she do that than....wait for it....have an affair...

When anything (porn, toys, affairs) take time, effort and pleasure away from your life partner There. Is. A. Problem.

After WH affairs, anything he does that would take away from our relationship is now a no no. So porn is off the table. Like female friends. He had free reign before and fucked it up.

All friends are "friends of the marriage".

All sex/sexual practices (should be) mutual.

By the way, using toys together can be an extremely pleasurable experience.

In short, sex has started to look extremely transactional to me; which, in a lot of ways, has killed the appeal of it.

I've gotten this feeling too. Even in college, there was always a 'price to pay'. Either I was paying for the date, or the drinks, or with my time and attention. That's what drew me to my wife in the first place is that I didn't have that feeling when I was dating her.

Shoulda known it was a trap. She's a talker and now my price is to get talked at constantly. Not two way conversation, but treated as an audience. So if I want sex with my wife she's gonna expect my to listen to her talk for hours afterwards.

But that's one of the caveats that go along with sex. Many women use it to get what they want from men. Not all. And it's not always like that. But she's used it as a bargaining chip enough times for me to understand that's how she sees it. A tool to get me to do what she wants. I like sex more than pron. A whole lot more. But porn has become a BATNA of sorts.