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Here is what I think it going to happen. The Lunch is going to be about rug sweeping. He will apoligise but it will be for "the mess" and continue to not acknowledge his part in your destruction. My guess is that the "talk" will be about selling the house and setting up a new life together. That he will use this time to love bomb you with how great you are together and how horrible she is. How great your life can be together... This gist is that I do not believe this will be a talk about what he did and why he did it. I will be about the future and how he plans to fight for the marriage.

You are going away to figure out what you want. In order to make an informed decision you want to truly know what type of man you married. People go to all types of extremes to try to understand how their perfect spouse could have behaved in such a nonperfect way (was it drugs? BI Polar, Post Partum...). You are in the position to have him explain the how, what, and why of what he did while staring at the evidence.

I feel like that's the one thing you need to help you make your decision about divorce. An answer to that question.... Who is this guy I married really? Is he proud of US and what we have done together or is he this pathetic guy that feels threatened and must belittle me to make himself feel better?

As to revealing your sources I would bet that he has already figured out how you know. I like the fact that he immediately blamed OW it means that he doesn't trust her and knows what type of woman she is....I also think he is putting all of the blame on her and might need to see those emails to see the part he played.

The other thing I wanted to add is that you appear to be a very strong woman that does best when she is in control. Holding everything in (limbo) has not work well for you. Leaving with all of these questions still bouncing around might make you sick. Getting these answers in a well thought out controlled way might be what you need to help you make you decision.

When I first read your thread I thought your WH was the most horrible person I'd ever read about. Since then I've seen small signs of hope that this could go either way. You need to make that decision and you need to understand the man you married in order to make them. Very few of us get closure this might be your chance for that.

[This message edited by Freeme at 8:38 AM, January 25th (Friday)]

I kinda like your idea, speed. I’d maybe print out the texts (so that he doesn’t know where they came from) and have him read them aloud while looking at your face. I can’t imagine a better, clearer way for him to realize exactly how childish and evil he has become. I am a long way out from DDay and reconciliation and have come to have little but contempt for how ridiculous cheaters are.

I do think that a cheater understanding that they aren’t some sexy God whom are entitled to anything that makes them feel good about themselves but, instead, under developed juvenile delinquents living in their 14 year old fantasy bubbles is always a good thing for them to have to face.

Take care and do what you know will work for you.

I don’t think that you are paralyzed, BTW. I think that you are a thoughtful manager of your own life and mind who has hit the great barrier of trying to make sense of nonsense. You’ll soon conclude that it’s a waste of time and energy and understand that you have the information that you need to decide. You’re fortunate to have your husbands regression in black and white. I’d say that the allusions to his resentment because you are more successful than he is is more proof that his emotional maturity is at issue here.

And then I think, ask for the timeline but I really already have that.

He doesn't know that. I would ask for a timeline anyways cause you know he's going to dress it down (lying by omission). That way you can firmly see what you're leaving behind.

However if you are certain of D then really why bother. You deserve waaaaay better.

Sending strength

He doesn't know that. I would ask for a timeline anyways cause you know he's going to dress it down (lying by omission). That way you can firmly see what you're leaving behind.

I definitely agree with this.

I also read my WXH and OW text messages. They synced to his ipad and even though he slept with his phone I would get up in the night and take photos of his ipad. I had figured out his password watching him put it in the phone so many times. It was a work phone, personal ipad, so I had no recourse with the phone. 3 days I read these messages then asked him if he was having an affair and to leave the house. Within 3 weeks we had a talk and I told him I wanted to proceed with a D. He tried to TT and I told him that I knew he was lying. He asked how and I said I read their text messages and it was the most painful thing in the world. He just looked at me and said "I'm sure it was." That was the end. I filed and he picked up the papers at the Sheriff's Office. Never asked for R. I didn't clarify when I read the text messages or any specifics, it was enough that he knew I wasn't bluffing.

I have them printed out and in a folder. For the first year I referred to them often. Only 2 people other than me have seen them, my BFF and my sister. Those messages kept me resolute in moving forward. I haven't read them in about a year and can't quite quote them verbatim like I could at one time.

I think you are proceeding in the best manner for you. It will be a long journey but IMHO false R would be even more painful.

I was thinking that maybe I give him the iPad, let the cat out of the bag and instead of asking him for a timeline, have him go back and read all their messages from my perspective (empathy - put yourself in my shoes) and imagine what that must be like for me. Then I'd ask him to take each reply of his and tell me what he was thinking about me and us when he wrote them. Tell me where his head was. Tell me what motivated him to say and then do the things he did and then tell me what thrill he got when he saw my reactions, responses and emotions when they "got me". How'd it feel "winning" at the game of "let's destroy Speed bump."

What you're imagining is confronting a guy with a normal psychology and actual empathy. These things are typically lacking in a WS. That's not to say they can never get better, but in the beginning, they usually need quite a bit of time to do so, and in some cases extensive therapy.

Maybe the thing to do would be to draw up a list of questions that you don't already have the answers to, and see if meeting with him would answer any of them. Alongside each question, pose some additional questions to yourself about how getting each answer helps you? What effect does it have on your healing process? What pain can you release by getting the answer? Let your mind wander and write freely This is just a thought exercise for you and doesn't commit you to any action.

I think what you're looking for, based on what you've posted, is empathy. You want to know he understands what he did and that he's sorry for it. That's NORMAL. We all want that. The problem is though, that even when the WS is actually remorseful, they can't really feel our feelings. Betrayal isn't just about the incident. It encompasses every previous wounding, like ripping open old scars. So our feelings are highly individualized. Even if we waived a magic wand over his head and installed a normal psychology and actual empathy in him, he still wouldn't feel what you feel. This is pain other people (let alone waywards) just don't understand until they've experienced it for themselves, and even then, it's not exactly the same for everyone.

I think there can still be value to getting your questions answered. It's just a matter of figuring out what that value is for you and whether your goals are realistic.

((big hugs))

(((Speedbump ))). The hair will grow back as your diet returns to normal but will get worse first. Same happened to me. I would have him write a timeline. Tell him you need the dirty details included because you are going to use it to decide how truthful he is by comparing to what you already know. He’s clueless about the iPad. Keep it a secret for now to see if he continues to communicate and to verify his story. Ask him to write the timeline while you are away. Ask him to also write what he thinks this has done to you and if this is the man he wants to be. Ask him to list the things he has destroyed or broken in you himself and your marriage by doing this. Tell him you will go over it together when you return. This will give him time by himself to contemplate the enormity of what he has done. You could write your own timeline to compare with his and also write what it has done to you. I figured divorce or reconciliation we had to get all the hurt out in the open either way.

Ps. What Chamomile said is true. It actually takes a bit of time for them to truly understand the hurt they caused. Some never do. I think they have to block it out to do what they did and they have to mentally unblock it Some don’t I think because they can’t face it. But the time alone will let him reflect.

[This message edited by Thanksgiving2016 at 9:20 AM, January 25th (Friday)]

SB, I agree with others to not give up the ipad just yet. If he gives you a good time line that encompasses the issues you have questions about, then you can sit down with him and ask him what he was thinking or to add his own thoughts and feelings to the timeline.

Also, if you want to talk to him, go for it. It doesn't have to be in person if you're not comfortable with it. He doesn't get to call the shots anymore. Tell him a way of communicating that you are comfortable with.

You are curious about where your WH falls on being remorseful? Go back and read their messages after D-day. Even to the OW, he didn't own his part in betraying you. First and foremost, he pointed the finger at the OW and demanded to know what she had done that got him busted. Nowhere in any of it was him owning his responsibility in cheating on you.

So do yourself a favor. If you are tempted to meet him, time will be your friend. Wait until you get back from the US before you consider whether or not meeting him is a good idea for you and your healing. Where he is and how he falls in the damage control mode doesn't matter. He made his choices and he freely blamed the OW for HIS actions. Don't let your curiosity allow you to get pulled back into his twisted mind games. The fact that he is using your curiosity against you to manipulate you into considering whether or not to meet with him shows me that he's still playing with you. Delay it if possible or don't meet him at all. Give yourself the precious gift of time. If he is truly remorseful, he will respect your need for space and time. The fact that he is pushing this meeting and has set a time limit of it being before you leave speaks volumes for his lack of respect for your needs.

F1

^^^^^ Re read Furious1's post above ^^^^^

Very true.

I agree with everything said that your WH initially pointed the finger at the OW for revealing the details you knew. But I disagree that he did not own up to his responsibility in cheating on you.

You related that during his phone conversation with OW after you confronted him, he repeatedly told her how effed up they were to do what “they” had done. “. The OW was cold and remorseless. Your WH told her to never call or talk to him again and repeated it two days later. In all of your interactions with him since, he has said little except he is very ashamed of what he did. What your WH did to you during his A was cruel and terrible, but since you have confronted him, based on what you have posted there has been no indication that he does not take responsibility for what he did. I second Stevesn’s advice to talk to him before you leave, but only when you are comfortable doing so. Good luck.

[This message edited by fareast at 12:29 PM, January 25th (Friday)]

Hey Speedbump,

What direction do you feel you are leaning towards at this point R or D? I ask because the screwing your neighbor behind your back is plenty of reason to leave(that's all it would take for me) but the "dare" game and treating you like a toy for them to get a sexual high from, and doing it blatantly in front of you is a depraved abuse that very few could get past.

Tell me where his head was. Tell me what motivated him to say and then do the things he did and then tell me what thrill he got when he saw my reactions, responses and emotions when they "got me". How'd it feel "winning" at the game of "let's destroy Speed bump."

You can certainly try to get some closure or answers (I would) but be fully aware that the more questions you ask, the more you will have, and the answers he gives you will not be satisfactory to you. Reason being there is no answer except "I wanted to, and that's all that mattered" and that isn't a good reason is it. There is NO good answer. If you want to hear him out just to make sure in your mind you covered all of your bases there is no harm in that as long as you don't fall for his bullshit that you will inevitably be on the receiving end of. Just remember the "dare" game at all times when dealing with him.

You haven't expressed any fear of what your single life would be like, but I'm going to offer my 2 cents here. You are an incredibly strong, decisive woman who has her shit together and that is extremely attractive. You will be beating Men away from you with a stick when the time comes.

Best of Luck and do what is right for you and you alone.

Lot’s of good comments, I’m specially in agreement with Freeme, furious1 and RubicCubed (but other SI gang members have good posts too).

I think that the OW came up with those depraved games but he did play along. He’s the one who let this happened to you, the OW is not that important

Your husband is supposed to be your protector, not your tormentor.

Imagine you hire a teen babysitter for your baby daughter (I know not a baby anymore but stay with me) and you go out for the evening. Once you’re gone she invites the BF who influences her to party smoke etc. The babysitter could tell you “it wasn’t my fault, it was all my BF ideas”. But who’s responsability was it to babysit your daughter?

Who’s responsability was it to protect you against this abuse? The neighbor?

Now speedbump, what is your goal? You want to hear his side of the story but why? Some people talk about written timeline but why?

If your goal is to D, you already have enough information, meeting him so that “he can explain” won’t help you. If your goal is to R, well your WH has a long way to go and the SI gang will have lots of good advice for you.

If your goal is to heal some more and decide later, go to the US, surround yourself with loves ones, and go NC for a while.

If your goal is Divocillation, it don’t think it will end well

Hey speed bump. I hope you are looking after yourself. Since you have the iPad you can go into the App Store and look at purchases. There’s a tab for ‘not on this device.’ Look for any suspicious apps. Now it tells you the date they were even purchased. Two years after the affair I discovered Wicker, Vault and a secret folder that had been purchased a month before the affair was discovered...while we were holidaying overseas no less. I know this was in direct response to my catching his work colleague messaging him on viber.

Also, my husband had two email accounts I didn’t know about, another Facebook and two other instagrams. Cheaters lie and only admit to the bare minimum.

Your husband certainly has done enough to allow you to make an informed decision right now. But if you find other things out you will be in a better position to know if he is still lying by omission...or even still seeing her

Have been reading and re-reading everyone's advice and find so many answers in them. I feel especially comfortable with Furious 1's advice, which makes the most sense and really resonates with me:

So do yourself a favor. If you are tempted to meet him, time will be your friend. Wait until you get back from the US before you consider whether or not meeting him is a good idea for you and your healing. Where he is and how he falls in the damage control mode doesn't matter. He made his choices and he freely blamed the OW for HIS actions. Don't let your curiosity allow you to get pulled back into his twisted mind games. The fact that he is using your curiosity against you to manipulate you into considering whether or not to meet with him shows me that he's still playing with you. Delay it if possible or don't meet him at all. Give yourself the precious gift of time. If he is truly remorseful, he will respect your need for space and time. The fact that he is pushing this meeting and has set a time limit of it being before you leave speaks volumes for his lack of respect for your needs.

It's where my head seems to be, too. I'm not in a rush to see or speak to him and really the only things that seems to be driving that "need" is curiosity. I can wait. I do know time is on my side and I have no reason to rush anything. So later tonight I will email him and, as I'm sure he already knows, we won't be meeting since I haven't replied and I leave tomorrow morning.

My plan is to send him an email saying all I really want right now is time away from him and the horror that has been my life these last weeks and months. I would prefer no contact but if he needs me for anything to do with the house, then he can reach out but other than that, I don't want to talk about what has happened between us. I will be spending my time figuring out how I allowed myself to go so far down the path in harming my mental and physical health and how I prevent that from ever happening again. As far as what he does with his time and how best to use it, well, that's up to him and not a concern of mine while I set out to heal.

I will seek some counselling while I am gone though not sure how much it could help for such short term, or if I will even be able to find someone in that amount of time but I will try. I did get out to a pharmacy today and picked up some biotin vitamins. Let's see if I can mitigate the hairloss at all, which is coming out in clumps. Ugh.

Up, up and away...

I think you've made a good decision, the one that's right for you.

And in terms of the hair loss, it will get better once the stress is resolved. The more self care you engage in the better off you'll be. Try to be gentle with your hair too. A good microfiber towel is handy. You'll also want to refrain from pulling it back into tight pony tails.

I'm not in a rush to see or speak to him and really the only things that seems to be driving that "need" is curiosity.

Reminds me of the results of scientific studies (linked to these before)

Curiosity Leads Us to Seek Out Unpleasant, Even Painful, Outcomes

https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/curiosity-leads-us-to-seek-out-unpleasant-even-painful-outcomes.html

On the flip side is your WH who is in a hurry to talk to you...

Most men would rather shock themselves than be alone with their thoughts

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2014/07/03/most-men-would-rather-shock-themselves-than-be-alone-with-their-thoughts/?utm_term=.8e6062c3390a

Good idea to delay and let the allure of the curiosity wear off a little while he enjoys a long look in the mirror.

Great plan SpeedBump.

Wish you well on your journey tomorrow. How are you feeling. Have you been able to eat and drink and stay nourished?

Stay in touch, we worry about you.

Great plan Speedbump. We’re here to support you.

You have to start eating, even if you don't feel hungry or even want to eat. Your loss of hair is a direct result of your diet. When you get to the states, tell your friend and daughter, so they can help you get healthy. That is really your number one priority at this time.

Some time in the future, hopefully you will accept what has happened, but you will never forget this. I believe that most relationships can be fixed if both parties work on the problems, but that doesn't mean that they should. I think that you should look to cut your losses and move on with your life.