SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

No, it doesn't mean that monogamy is futile anymore than it means that not murdering is a "silly law" (because men are programmed to kill too). It does mean that it's hard though, and that some people will fail. But just because something is hard that in no way means it's not valuable. In fact, in a lot of ways, the harder something is to achieve, the more valuable it is. We put a high price on gold because it's HARD to get, not because it's easy. I see monogamy the same way, it has value because our programming tells us to do something else. If we were truly monogamous by nature, well, what value would a vow have? Of course you won't sleep with other people, you're monogamous!

Yes that makes sense. My WS is just not cut from that cloth and I've accepted it. I picked one of the rotten fruits from the tree it looked good on the outside not so much on the inside. Thank you for proving that not all men think with their genitilia.

My WS is a walking genitilia with no mind or soul just constant need for something different that validates him until it doesn't. He's a bottomless pit

For the same reason I don't steal from my employer (despite also being very motivated by money), because I promised not to. It's that simple. I never meant to imply that men can't keep it in check. They can, and they do. But, if a man is cheating, there is; IMHO, a tremendous likely hood that his reason for cheating comes down to "he didn't keep it in check" rather than some deep seated FOO issue.

I don't think FOO are a reason people cheat by the way. I think that they are worth looking at where you may have learned right from wrong, coping and defense strategies, what relationships look like, but I think EVERYONE has FOO issues.

I guess you are kind of making my point for me. I get what you are saying about "not keeping it in check" I definitely do. But, I think there is something extra there that tips it in that direction or they would have that control. Like I said it can be just as simple as proving they could get the woman, or seeing if they still got it, or getting a little caught up that a particular woman is interested in them and feeling desirable. But again, those boil down to still needing some sort of validation that tips it over. You know you like sex, you know you would like to have it with many women, many ways, but you don't have the extra thing that tips it in the other direction, thus you have control of it. I didn't say that it wasn't difficult or that it didn't exist, I think that it's a little more complex than you make it but not so complex that it's hard to understand.

AIs it so hard to believe that a 60 year old man still has a very high sex drive?

No, I am married to a man who is 55! He wants sex daily! And, AP was mid60's...But combine that with the fact this particular man said he takes care of his needs about once a week? That doesn't scream high sex drive. The more likely scenario is he probably cheated earlier on because the sex primarily with whatever that "extra" thing is that tipped the scales. Eventually, he missed the validation that those women gave him and he kept searching it out, even though in reality he'd slowed down a lot sexually. Anyway, that's enough of that it skeeves me out to think about any of that so enough with my own personal example. So gross.

As for the analogy about how driven men are for it....I do get that. I do think it's a big motivator for them. I know sometimes if I ask my husband to watch a new show the first thing he will ask if he thinks it's too girly is "well is there at least nudity?" So, Yes, I got all that.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:52 PM, February 5th (Tuesday)]

Women fantasize about sleeping with men other than their husbands. This is not singular to men. Exciting sex with someone new is something both genders fantasize about. A lot of people fancy themselves to be evolutionary psychologists when they're really just reading a bunch of bullshit on the internet that fits there (very narrow) narrative.

I can't accept the idea that some men just plain think with their dicks.

IMHO, you need to. I was that man, first off, so I have intrinsic experience with it.

We are all programmed by our experiences, which for the young are narrow and limited. It takes some living to know one's motivations.

And lots of people take the position that one famous person does - he said he doesn't look too deeply inside because he's afraid of what he might find.

What did you tell yourself about your sexual experiences with others? Waht did you tell yourself about jerking off? The difference will tell you something about your motivation....

You can always dig so deep that you wind up in a hole with no view of the sky anymore. And I feel like that's what happens a lot when we "drill down" on A's, particularly male A's.

Could be. But a man who tells others about his infidelities has at least one ulterior motive and probably more. To accept that he cheats for sex is to blind oneself to the obvious.

What words do your friends use when talking about their conquests? What do they tell themselves? What words do they use about their 'NSA' sex?

Look, one reason people say they have sex is to feel good about themselves. To me, it's crystal clear that feeling good about themselves, not the sex per se, is the desired outcome. Another reason people say they have sex for is to connect with another person. Again, connection, not the sex per se, is the desired outcome.

That's not deep analysis. It's just hearing what a person has to say.

**********

T/J -

Men are programmed to seek and pursue sex. Just like all other male animals (and a few female as well).

Human females are also programmed for sexual pleasure, which is decidedly not necessary for procreation. And it's not a new, post-Pill phenomenon: the rabbis who created the Talmud recognize specified how much sex men owed their wives.

End T/J

'"""""Romantic affairs lead to a great many divorces, suicides, homicides, heart attacks, and strokes, but not to very many successful remarriages. No matter how many sacrifices you make to keep the love alive, no matter how many sacrifices your family and children make for this crazy relationship, it will gradually burn itself out when there is nothing more to sacrifice to it. Then you must face not only the wreckage of several lives, but the original depression from which the affair was an insane flight into escape.'''

No better words have ever been spoken. This is my marriage 15 years post h's affair with our friend/ neighbor. The roller coaster ride is all but over. The consequences of his affair remain with nothing left to sacrifice. Fifteen years later my husband is back to where he was pre affair. But this time I really don't give fuck anymore.

For the same reason I don't steal from my employer (despite also being very motivated by money), because I promised not to. It's that simple. I never meant to imply that men can't keep it in check.

I am quite motivated by money as well. But I have never considered or wanted to steal money. You have to check something if you actually want to do it. I don't steal just because I promised not to. I have no desire to steal. I want to earn it.

If my husband was a man who had to stop himself from drooling over every woman he came across, I wouldn't want to be with him, however hard he worked to not act on it.

And that's the part that I think a lot of people simply cannot understand. You cannot imagine how motivating sex is to some people, so, when they march through the night you think to yourself "eating disorder" or "family must not have fed him as a child" or lots of other things. That guy marching along might have those issues, but he also might just be real hungry and have a huge motivation to get some food.

I don't disagree. It is the generalizing that I find illogical. To me it seems like you are projecting yourself and a small group of men you know to all men, and trying to represent all men. Is that because you feel that if all men are like this then you wont have to defend your sex drive?

If this is who you are then simply accept it. I hope though that your wife knows that you desire sex with other women, but don't act on it due to your vows. She deserves to know that while you are physically monogamous, mentally you are not.

I know sometimes if I ask my husband to watch a new show the first thing he will ask if he thinks it's too girly is "well is there at least nudity?" So, Yes, I got all that.

Sorry, quoted because that was hilarious. Your H and I would likely get along well.

Women fantasize about sleeping with men other than their husbands. This is not singular to men. Exciting sex with someone new is something both genders fantasize about. A lot of people fancy themselves to be evolutionary psychologists when they're really just reading a bunch of bullshit on the internet that fits there (very narrow) narrative.

OK then, after you. But I'll tell you, I've done the research and unless you find different sources than I did, you'll find that what I said was/is generally true. Men fantasize about women more frequently, for longer, and more individual women than women do men, by a very large margin. Yes, of course women fantasize, and I'm sure some women do fantasize about some random man they've never met doing them like a mad man. I've done a lot of reading on this and would be happy to take it into another thread, but this post will get far too long if we go deep into the evolutionary psychology behind both sexes cheating. Let's say "it's different" and leave it alone or take it to another thread where I'm happy to delve into it deeply. But no, evolution (forget the psychology) does not reward women who sleep with 100's of men at all, in fact, it's dangerous and probably detrimental to survival of offspring once you cross some number of men (and that number is low, could be as low as 1). Where men, evolution greatly favors those who sleep with 100's or 1000's of women. Something like a few % of an entire country (China, I believe) is descended from one man, he was wildly successfully in the "game of evolution". But his strategy (sleeping/raping 1000's of women) would have likely resulted in 0 or at VERY best, 5-10 offspring if he were a woman. Evolution does not favor a woman who sleeps with 100's of men, if anything, it punishes. And that fact, like it or not, defines a lot of the difference in the mating (and affair) habits between the sexes.

What did you tell yourself about your sexual experiences with others? Waht did you tell yourself about jerking off? The difference will tell you something about your motivation....

That women liked sex just as much as men so I was doing nothing wrong. I didn't tell myself much about jerking off other than "I wish I was with a woman instead".

To accept that he cheats for sex is to blind oneself to the obvious

The obvious what? I think that's inassilable statement actually. Why do you cheat? For sex. What does cheating give you? More sex. Pretty consistent and rational to me. I guess some people do go to the grocery store because they like the carpet in the fruit isle, most go because they are hungry or know they will be hungry soon and the grocery store is a way to fix that. Some of the people in there are addicted to food, no doubt. Some people are there to look at the carpets. Some have serious food (see what I did there..) issues. But most of them, you don't need to dig deep, they are at the grocery store because they sell food there and they like food. When my friends have talked of A's, it's very much the same, there's more sex on offer, they like sex, hence.. They are "shopping". I could argue with them and say they are really there for the carpets or because they are addicted to food, but, absent evidence, isn't it going to more often be correct that people aren't food addicted or carpet gazers, they're just hungry? That is, after all, what the grocery store is known for (food); why assume there's an ulterior motive where one may not (in my personal life, doesn't exist outside of my W's A, she wasn't hungry, she likes the carpets)?

What words do your friends use when talking about their conquests? What do they tell themselves? What words do they use about their 'NSA' sex?

I'm trying to recall a real conversation, it's been years (since my W's A) since I've associated much with others who are in this lifestyle. This isn't a quote, but it's the best I can remember it from one specific conversation.

You remember that girl from the bar last night? Man, she was a good time. I'm going to try to see her again next time she's in town.

Something like that would be a pretty typical conversation of that sort. If booze is involved, it would often get more graphic. Sometimes pictures would be shared, particularly if it was an A and not just a ONS. Occasionally some details, but not always. That's pretty much it, never to be spoken of again unless we were back in that town and/or the lady was joining us where we'd all be present.

I am quite motivated by money as well. But I have never considered or wanted to steal money. You have to check something if you actually want to do it. I don't steal just because I promised not to. I have no desire to steal. I want to earn it.

Yeah, after I wrote this I thought to myself, not the best example. Because I feel the same way. I feel the analogy holds, but it could be stronger because many people don't feel an urge to steal.

If my husband was a man who had to stop himself from drooling over every woman he came across, I wouldn't want to be with him, however hard he worked to not act on it.

You changed my words for dramatic effect. Allow me to change them back.

"If my husband was a man who had to fight back urges to sleep with some women he came across, I wouldn't want to be with him, however hard he worked to not act on it".

And I'd argue that IS your husband. Let's make it concrete, does your husband watch porn? What do you think he's thinking about when he watches porn? Sex, of course, right? But sex with who? You? The porn star? His high school GF? Porn works because it incites the "new sex" pathways of the brain. Yes, you can look at it and imagine your H/W, I do that sometimes myself. But sometimes, you're letting the urge to sleep with someone new act itself out in a safer and less damaging way. If most men didn't have this drive, well, porn wouldn't be nearly as effective or ubiquitous as it is for a male masturbation aid.

Your husband is likely fighting back exactly that urge. In my opinion, that's just part of being human, we can all deny it, pretend it's not there, and go about our merry ways, but.. That doesn't change the fact that at least some percentage of people, we do (myself included) have these urges. Just like I have urges to kill my W's AP. And urges to sleep till 11AM every day. It's not the urge that's wrong, it's acting on that urge that crosses the line. But if your standard for M is "never imagine intimacy of any sort with any other woman again ever" you better move to a country that practices sharia law (which, incidentally, as backwards as I think it is, at least is intellectually sound by addressing how men are attracted to women. I think this is a totally crazy way to deal with it, but, at least it's not like others who say "I'm above it" and lie to themselves with such rigor they start believing their own stories; IE, most modern religions).

I don't disagree. It is the generalizing that I find illogical. To me it seems like you are projecting yourself and a small group of men you know to all men, and trying to represent all men. Is that because you feel that if all men are like this then you wont have to defend your sex drive?

I don't feel the need to defend my sex drive. But it's not just the guys I know from where I draw these conclusions, in fact, they are just a proof point to what's really shaped my views on this topic. Statistics and math are really the things that, IMHO, let me speak in generalities when it comes to this topic. And the stats are pretty clear; a whole lot of men will say "yes" to an A if the threat of repercussions is removed. A lot of women will too, for reasons that are still unknown to me (but a topic for a different thread).

To loop it back to the OT, it's also the reason that I feel (statistics) comfortable saying having an A for "romance" or "love" are very misguided reasons, the statistics bear out that almost no A's wind up "happily ever after". Know what you're getting into and make decisions based on facts, not feelings. If my W had done that, I wouldn't be here and you wouldn't have to suffer my overly long replies.

If this is who you are then simply accept it. I hope though that your wife knows that you desire sex with other women, but don't act on it due to your vows. She deserves to know that while you are physically monogamous, mentally you are not.

And on this one, I'll just say that's a strawman and you and I both know it. If there's anyone here who can honestly stand up and say "I've never so much as glanced at another woman since I was married", I'll hand him the stone to throw at me. Shoot, I'll hand him an entire bucket of stones. Because this "mentally monogamous" isn't even a thing, and, if it was, I can't imagine that many of us would pass the test for "never even considered it". Again, let's get real here for a minute, when they do studies on men and porn they struggle (and often cancel the study) to find a "control group" (IE, men who don't watch any porn). And even if you don't, beautiful female bodies are on display everywhere, posters/print/television/movies and, of course, in person. I simply cannot fathom a man living a married life and actually never looking at another woman and feeling a sexual twinge again for the rest of his life. That's a standard that simply cannot be "the standard" because if it is, the vast majority of us are WS's. I can't speak for women, but, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that most women couldn't live up to this standard either, especially if you include romance novels/soap operas and all the other "female porn" type materials out there.

Apologies to the OP if this is going too off track.

"If my husband was a man who had to fight back urges to sleep with some women he came across, I wouldn't want to be with him, however hard he worked to not act on it".

And I'd argue that IS your husband.

I wouldn't presume to know what my husband actually thinks. But if he said to me that he has to literally control his urge to break boundaries around other women, I would thank him for his honesty and say goodbye.

There is a difference between finding people attractive (quite normal) and fighting the urge to sleep with others (polygamous mentality). For people with the latter mindset, monogamy is a challenge and a deprivation of their natural instincts.

Going back to your money example, you enjoy money but you feel no desire to actually steal money. So you don't have to constantly control yourself from stealing. Same with sex. I find other men attractive, but I don't have to control myself around them. I don't feel the conscious desire to act on the attraction at all.

Evolutionary biology is often used as an excuse. People are not animals. But when they choose to behave like animals, they use evolution as a justification.

Animals have sex with their offspring. Our ancestors did too. Would you say, in your generalization, that all men fight the urge to sleep with their daughters and have to constantly control themselves around their daughters?

I would take a guess and say 'no'. Some men may feel that way but most men don't look upon their daughters and think 'what a great ass'. They have managed out that evolutionary drive because they created a different set of values.

So if some men look at women and see a piece of meat (continuing your derogatory herbivore comment), it is because they believe that there is nothing wrong with that attitude. We are not in a static state of emotional existence. We are shaped each moment by what we choose to believe.

I don't have a problem with those who have high sex drives. I have a problem with people who see women as purely sex objects.

[This message edited by Ephimera at 8:22 PM, February 5th (Tuesday)]

But if he said to me that he has to literally control his urge to break boundaries around other women, I would thank him for his honesty and say goodbye.

There is a difference between finding people attractive (quite normal) and fighting the urge to sleep with others (polygamous mentality).

I really don't see the distinction there. Finding someone attractive is pretty much the same thing, to me, as saying "I'd like to sleep with that person". Now, this is going to be wildly unpopular, but I do think, for a lot of people, those two things are A-B. Maybe softening it a bit, not "I'd like to sleep with that person", but "If the situation was right, I would sleep with that person" (IE, if I was not married) makes it a bit more palatable. You have to realize, for a lot of people, myself included, sexual desire and visual attraction are the same thing. It's why porn is so effective for people wired this way, the visual attraction to the actor/actress causes sexual desire. I think you're drawing a distinction that doesn't necessarily exist, at least not for all people. Now that does not mean I WOULD sleep with that person. It means, if the situation permitted it, I might sleep with that person. Isn't that what "attractive" really means though? And if that's the case, yes, it's completely normal to have an urge to sleep with an attractive person, an urge that has to be controlled. I hope others chime in here because I have a feeling I'm not alone here, but, at the same time, sometimes wonder if I am.

Would you say, in your generalization, that all men fight the urge to sleep with their daughters and have to constantly control themselves around their daughters?

Oh man.. You just had to go there, didn't you! I'm going to give this one a huge berth, but will say, if you really want to know, look it up. And no, we're not talking about pedophilia here, that is statistically not normal at all. But, even this, we kind of know it at a deep down level. If a young woman steps out naked in front of her father, what's he going to do? Turn his head and yell at her "put some damn clothes on". Why is he doing that? Why can't he look at her? I'll leave that to your research, but, the answer doesn't take a whole lot of imagination.

Evolutionary biology is often used as an excuse. People are not animals. But when they choose to behave like animals, they use evolution as a justification.

Actually, we are animals, and we're governed by the same drives that all mammals have. But, we are not beholden to our drives like other mammals are because we have higher reasoning skills. I don't see evolutionary biology as an excuse for cheating anymore than I see it as an excuse for murder; however, it is very useful in explaining why these horrible things happen with such frequency in our society. If you look at statistics, almost everyone agrees that "infidelity is wrong" (human brain). However, 30-60% of us will do it anyway (animal brain). There are only 2 answers that make sense to me; we are all either lying (I'm saying infidelity is wrong but actually believe it's just fine) or our sense of right/wrong is being overruled by something else. And that something else would be our lower brain functions that say "spread seed" or "get the best seed". If we didn't have those drivers deep inside of us, A's wouldn't happen (and the human race would have died out millions of years ago).

They have managed out that evolutionary drive because they created a different set of values.

You don't "manage out" an evolutionary drive. The drive is there, you control it with your higher brain functions that let you decide right/wrong and good/evil. But it's there in all of us, the propensity for unspeakable horrors if we don't control that function correctly. There's no escaping it, it's a part of us that's just deeply built into who we are as a people.

As an interesting sidebar, I do wonder our drive for sex might actually not be strong enough. Birthrates continue to fall, and in a lot of developed countries, are below replacement rate. Our neocortex has gotten control of our sexual desires and practices to such a degree that it might, at some point, become a problem in the opposite direction. The ability to have sex without conception has changed the landscape forever and allowed us to overcome an animal desire with our rational mind. Good thing? Perhaps. We'll (well, not us, 5-10 generations from now) see. But we've managed to hijack the animal desire we all have for sex in several ways, porn, vibrators and birth control being the most significant. Will we eventually on our evolutionary path become a sexless society? It's certainly possible, more and more children are born without sex every year (IVF, donor sperm, etc). And sexual frequency rates continue to drop among married couples. It's an interesting question, will sex eventually stop being a "thing"?

I realize I'm equating 'sex' with pleasure here, and I'm probably arguing that orgasm is the ultimate pleasure, so sex = orgasm.

If you don't agree, what does 'sex' mean to you?

To accept that he cheats for sex is to blind oneself to the obvious

The obvious what? I think that's inassilable statement actually. Why do you cheat? For sex.

If sex is the goal, why cheat? Why not stay at home? Whatever sex is, I'd expect it to be easier to do with one's partner than with someone you have to go out to meet.

We human beings generally have multiple goals. We take action to get the balance of goals that we think we want. But we often don’t even bring all of our goals into consciousness. So if on eis interested in motivations, one has to probe a bit.

One common technique for discovering motivations is to ask a series of questions, something like:

What do you get from doing that?

What does that get you?

What does that get you?

When someone says, ‘I cheat for sex,’ s/he’s being awesomely vague. I’d ask follow-up questions, if only to get a better understand of what s/he means.

So, what does ‘I cheat for sex’ mean to you?

************

Does 'evolutionary drive' mean 'instinct'? We can pretty much see instinct. 'Evolutionary drive' is pretty hard to prove.

Actually it's not just our higher reasoning ability that differentiates us from other animals. My understanding is that most female mammals don't seem to get pleasure from sex. Human females do.

Also, while we can reason better than any other species we've found, the long human childhood and adolescence foster the development of some fairly nasty dysfunctions that get passed on, mutate, etc., etc., etc.. Consider the love-hate relationship WRT sex. Consider also the patriarchal view of women as the main source of temptation - which ignores the fact the men let themselves be tempted.

[This message edited by sisoon at 2:34 PM, February 6th (Wednesday)]

If you don't agree, what does 'sex' mean to you?

Physical activity that, if persisted, will likely lead the male to orgasm. Handjobs, BJs, vaginal, anal sex would all qualify. And, the lead in activities would as well, simply by virtue that they are precursor activities to sex (kissing, petting, etc).

If sex is the goal, why cheat? Why not stay at home? Whatever sex is, I'd expect it to be easier to do with one's partner than with someone you have to go out to meet.

I can't answer that question. But I can make some educated guesses. And I think that the first is because your supposition is at least sometimes, not true. A lot of guys I know have no luck at all with their wives. This could be entirely their fault, I don't deny that one bit. But changing that is apparently more difficult then finding someone new to sleep with. Let me say, at times in my marriage, I knew it would be easier to find someone new to sleep with than to get my W to sleep with me, so I don't think this is too much of a stretch. Especially, of course, if you include professionals.

But that's not all of it. There's also the "Coolidge Effect". And I have no idea if this holds for women, but, speaking for myself, having sex with someone new is often more rewarding than having sex with the same person multiple times. This make perfect sense if you take an evolutionary view of it, if it wasn't the case, men would not "spread seed", but, regardless, I can say that this has been a personal truth for me.

We human beings generally have multiple goals. We take action to get the balance of goals that we think we want. But we often don’t even bring all of our goals into consciousness. So if on eis interested in motivations, one has to probe a bit.

I agree with this. And it depends on your time frame. I think if you reduce an A to small parts, yes, you can say a goal might be "get her to smile at me" and then "get her to hold my hand" and then "get her to kiss me". If you asked me while dating, I might have told you that was my "goal" for the night. But when you step back and take a broader view, the goal was "sex" (as defined above), all those actions, all those little moves, they all lead to one end goal for me. And that end goal was never love, I didn't want that, I didn't care if it happened, if anything, I didn't want it to happen. It did eventually happen for me when I met my W, but, that was never my objective in meeting her. My objective was "have sex with someone new". Yes, I had butterflies in my stomach, yes, I was excited to meet her. But if you dig deeply into the "why" the answer always comes back to "sex", at least for me.

So, what does ‘I cheat for sex’ mean to you?

I think what I said above covers it. I mean, I have a little trouble with this question really because it's so obvious to me. What is it that defines an A. It's sex. And even an EA, let me say personally, it's not the "strong friendship" and "sharing of secrets" that I believe rips people apart. It's the fact that it's moving towards sex. My wife doesn't seem to care at all that I have what would be defined by everyone here as an "EA" with my best friend. I share everything with him, including sometimes things I don't share with my W. I tell him about my marriage. I tell him my hopes and fears. It's clearly an "EA" and yet, nobody seems to much mind. Because, of course, we all know, I won't be sleeping with him anytime soon (or ever). My wife, and I think most wives, has a very intimate relationship with her mother and her close friends. Shares WAY too much (IMHO, compared to me). But it doesn't bother me, because, I know that it's non-sexual. But if it turned sexual (with one of her friends) suddenly it would bother me. Its sex that's the line, either actual sexual activity or the desire to engage in sexual activity (for an EA) that actually defines "this is an A" rather than a close friendship.

Actually it's not just our higher reasoning ability that differentiates us from other animals. My understanding is that most female mammals don't seem to get pleasure from sex. Human females do.

Well that's interesting, I did not know that.. But, since you started the conversation, ever wonder why most sexual encounters for women won't end in orgasm? Why men last 2-3 minutes on average and women need 10-12 to reach orgasm? It's a very interesting topic for discussion, but, I'll warn you, the evolutionary reasons advanced likely won't exactly be something you want to know.

This has been an interesting thread, it's taken a big departure though.

I kind of waited to see if any other men chimed in on this. It would be interesting to know if the way Rideitout describes the way men think is more universal or if this is more of an individual thing. I don't know that I have ever heard any man speak quite this way on their views of sex. So, do they all just hide it?

I am not completely naïve. I know when H and I have candid conversations that he checks out women and things like that, I know some of it exists. I know he had a friend for some time in our early marriage that bragged a lot about exploits and affairs, but he was a moron. I have read that men think about it a lot more than we do, and I know my husband seems to. The manipulations that happen, and some of those other workings.... I guess I thought a lot of that was a young man's thing in terms of maturity. Not that I didn't think there were some men who never grew up. But mostly in the men I have known that seems to be outliers.

There are a lot of concepts here that I do not relate to. I can look at all sorts of people and think they are attractive or look nice. I don't equate that to that means that I would consider sex with them or fantasize about it or even have my thoughts go there. In fact, half the time I will look at a woman and think wow she is really pretty. I don't have tendencies of sleeping with women.

And, maybe I am an anomaly among women, but I don't fantasize about sleeping with specific people either. I have tried and usually that gets me all up in my head. Fantasies to me are probably more voyeuristic? Meaning I am not a participant? Maybe I saw porn too young? In all my life when I chose to sleep with someone it was usually due to their intelligence/personality. I know that sounds ridiculous but until I connected with them at least mentally there just was no interest. I knew my husband for years before we dated, but until we sat down and talked one on one I was not aware of any chemistry, and suddenly it was there like wildfire.

And, I definitely don't relate to this:

There's also the "Coolidge Effect". And I have no idea if this holds for women, but, speaking for myself, having sex with someone new is often more rewarding than having sex with the same person multiple times.

In fact, I would find that to be the opposite for me. It takes a long time to know each other really well in that way...to establish different guaranteed hits so to speak. I would never get to the finish line on a ONS.

So, sometimes I read this stuff and think I must just be from outer space. I guess being on this site you get exposed to a lot of information that you don't really talk to people you know about.

But, I am thankful for the posting of this article. I went and read the full one, and I have to say it was very enlightening and true. It reinforced for me that these situations are never unique and all of that. Sorry that I helped take this topic off the rails because it was really a good one.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:26 PM, February 6th (Wednesday)]

RIO, I just don't think I'm as much of a freak as your views of women and sex drive make me feel like I am, lol.

RIO, I just don't think I'm as much of a freak as your views of women and sex drive make me feel like I am, lol.

Figured I'd start here, because the LAST thing I want to do is shame women for having a healthy or higher sex drive than their husbands. Your H is a lucky man, and your an amazing woman that many guys would kill to date and marry. And, realize, I'm a very high drive man, so I know I'm outside the "norm" even for men too. And I used to feel bad about it, I felt like it was a curse. Now I've come to accept, it's just who I am, and I see it more like "well, orgasms feel good, and I get more than most guys because I'm more willing to pursue them, so.. Winning!".

It would be interesting to know if the way Rideitout describes the way men think is more universal or if this is more of an individual thing. I don't know that I have ever heard any man speak quite this way on their views of sex. So, do they all just hide it?

I think it's a spectrum. I think I'm on the high side of the spectrum. But from my experience with other men, I think I'm more "normal" than you might expect. And yes, I think that most men hide this expertly. I've hid it my entire life, walking up to a woman and saying "wow, you're really hot, I'd love to sleep with you" is completely unacceptable. I learned that early and found the acceptable way (what I thought at the time) to say the same thing, "Hi, I'm RIO, and I'd love to get to know you". It was a social grace though, a social grace that I thought all men and women were aware of, but we all just turned a blind eye to. It's not. It's lying, and I shouldn't have done it if the stories of WW's here are to be believed (and I think they are). Because where to me they were just words, lost in the air moments after being said, to some (maybe most) of the women I said that to, they thought there was substance to them. And that is a cross I have to carry for the rest of my life. I didn't think what I was doing was wrong, but it was; it wasn't a social grace, it was just lying.

I am not completely naïve. I know when H and I have candid conversations that he checks out women and things like that, I know some of it exists. I know he had a friend for some time in our early marriage that bragged a lot about exploits and affairs, but he was a moron. I have read that men think about it a lot more than we do, and I know my husband seems to. The manipulations that happen, and some of those other workings.... I guess I thought a lot of that was a young man's thing in terms of maturity. Not that I didn't think there were some men who never grew up. But mostly in the men I have known that seems to be outliers.

First off, it's great that you and your H can talk about it. A lot of couples cannot, and I think that of everything, honesty is by far the most important thing to bring to a relationship (hence my struggle over my actions in the past). And yes, I do think younger men are more prone to it than older, and more mature men (emotional maturity) less prone than others. But that's a bit like saying that a mature woman picks a good partner to have children with where an immature one just gets "knocked up". That may very well be true, but the woman that waits for the right partner is no less (necessarily) baby crazy than the one who gets knocked up. It's simply a matter of self-control and making the right decisions. Does a woman who has her first child at 30 like children less than one who had one at 18? No, she's just more mature with better decision making, she was probably dreaming about babies in high school too, just didn't act on it (NO, I know not all women dream about babies, but it's as close an analogy as I could draw.. Call the sexist police, they are already on their way to my place for many other transgressions).

In fact, I would find that to be the opposite for me. It takes a long time to know each other really well in that way...to establish different guaranteed hits so to speak. I would never get to the finish line on a ONS.

Well, you got me to do a little more research. It's debated if the Coolidge effect exists in human females, but most people seem to think "no". It's actually measurable in human males (warning, graphic content coming) by ejaculation volumes. Men ejaculate faster and more volume/sperm with a new partner. I can tell you, from personal experience, this is NOT something that's controlled by our conscious mind. But I can further tell you that almost all of my "minute man" (God, that's embarrassing) moments have been with a woman I've never slept with before. And my wife has certainly said the same thing to me, both about her few short term relationships and her AP. So, in short, I believe it to be true both because of the research and my personal experiences. And maybe this is why it's so hard for women to understand a man just out pursing "new sex". Because "new sex" isn't always (or even usually) that great for a woman because, well, no Coolidge effect? I don't know, but it seems plausible. When women on here say things like "why would he go to all the trouble just to have sex with the AP", that's another head scratcher for me because, well, the answer is obvious from my perspective. Because sex with someone new ranges from pretty good to outstanding in my personal experience. But maybe the reason that there's such a disconnect is because that experience is determined, in part anyway, by gender?

So, sometimes I read this stuff and think I must just be from outer space. I guess being on this site you get exposed to a lot of information that you don't really talk to people you know about.

I feel the same way too sometimes when I read threads here. I think, fundamentally, it comes down to both sexes, when they are playing the mating game, have a lot of things that are NEVER said to the other sex. If you were friends with my friends, and we all (guys and you) sat down and I started to talk to you about this, the guys would be aghast! What are you doing RIO?? We don't talk like this with women around!! I'd lose my "man card" forever with those guys. :) And I suspect that women have something similar, I'm just not privy to those conversations. Shoot, my W talked to a few of her GF's about the A, so I know there's a "girls club" just like there's a "boys club". It's just different, she didn't talk about his penis or his skill in bed, she talked about his words and his promises. But I'm 100% convinced there's a toxic version of that too, 2 girls sitting around saying "he's lousy in bed, I'm cheating on him but he's rich, so I'm not leaving or will D and take 1/2". It's not like one sex is better than the other, it's just that they have different goals. And, A's, for the most part, line up much more neatly with your typical "male" goals than the "female" ones.

I guess, what I'm saying, there are toxic members of both sexes. And by engaging in an affair, your basically pulling up to the "toxic partner" asylum and asking "anyone want a ride"? If 50% of men are "just out for sex" well, a huge proportion of those men are going to be in the group of "available AP's". So, regular dating, you've got a 50/50 shot of finding a man who's interested in more than your genitalia, but, once you jump into the pool of male AP's, that 50/50 goes to 95/5. (Numbers made up, of course). You just self-selected into a group comprised of exactly the kind of people who you claim to not like. And, looping it back to the OT, that's what makes "romantic infidelity" such a fools game, IMHO. You've self-selected into the group that's not looking for romance (the men having A's) with the goal of finding or feeling romance. That's what makes romantic infidelity, especially for women such an illogical reason to enter an A.

There are women who, by nature romantics, don't quite want to escape their own life and die for love. Instead they'd rather have some guy wreck his life for them. These women have been so recently betrayed by unfaithful men that the wound is still raw and they are out for revenge. A woman who angrily pursues married men is a "spider woman"—she requires human sacrifice to restore her sense of power.

When she is sucking the blood from other people's marriages, she feels some relief from the pain of having her own marriage betrayed. She simply requires that a man love her enough to sacrifice his life for her. She may be particularly attracted to happy marriages, clearly envious of the woman whose husband is faithful and loving to her. Sometimes it isn't clear whether she wants to replace the happy wife or just make her miserable.

WOW! This was my situation. My husband's AP had recently been betrayed by her husband. Her 48 year old husband has just left her for a 19 year old! It always boggled my mind how she could enter MY marriage knowing full well what it feels like to be betrayed. I never realized that this is somewhat of a common scenario. Thanks for sharing. Helps to shed some understanding (however fucked up it may be) on her motives.

Connecting back to the original post, I guess the 'romance' versus 'sex' question is perhaps biased towards gender but still surely at root comes down to validation.

I think - and I apologise in advance for speaking very generally - that men are more focused on sex but this often ultimately is about validation of emotions, masculinity, virility etc. It's how a lot of men express themselves and seek that expression back. It's an important 'currency' for me.

I also believe that many men may well look at an attractive woman and, in a very casual way, think sexually about them. Kind of along the lines of 'If I was a single guy...' The issue is not so much with that but whether they feel entitled to go beyond an idle, passing thought, at which point it is clearly unacceptable.

On the flip side, I suspect that many (of course not all) WW see the desire of the OM as the validation and the sex is an expression of that, not the end goal or the 'prize'.

Of course I can only make an evaluation based on my own assumptions from what I know, but my feeling is that the romance/attention/excitement was far more compelling for my WW than the sexual encounters.

As some other WW have said in other posts, as BH we are quick to note that the OM is not as good looking, successful, popular, fit, caring, good a dad, mature etc as us but then immediately imagine that in the bedroom they are a porn star stud with a 9 inch dick and unbelievable staying power.

I think that says more about our, understandable, vulnerability than it does about the likely reality.

In my situation the A was mostly conducted as an EA because PA opportunities were limited and defined, so I know how many times they physically met/had sex. I didn't want to know the intimate details (for my own self-protection) but she said I was better. It was the one white lie I decided to take on face value!

As some other WW have said in other posts, as BH we are quick to note that the OM is not as good looking, successful, popular, fit, caring, good a dad, mature etc as us but then immediately imagine that in the bedroom they are a porn star stud with a 9 inch dick and unbelievable staying power.

Because, speaking for myself, that makes sense to me. No, the OM in my case was not as good looking, was not in very good shape, not as successful and was certainly not a caring or mature (in his relation with women). That's all evident with a photograph and the knowledge that he was having an affair with my W. You could know all those things about him with just those two piece of information, information that my W also had (of course).

So, if you can compare yourself in those ways to the OM, you start to think, "OK, so it wasn't those things.. What was it"? Take that and put it with "what did they do when they were together" and, well, there's a logical answer (which could very well be wrong, but it is logical); he had a magic penis. I have no idea how I compare there, and, from my W's behavior, it certainly would appear that was a huge part of her relationship with him. Now, to hear her tell it, that wasn't it at all, but, just looking at the facts, it's hard not to jump from them to "well, she must have really enjoyed sex with him because that's one of the only things they did together and, that's the only thing I don't actually know how I compare".

If it's the high drive partner who cheats, I think it's a bit easier to understand, that person is high sex drive, cheating may (often doesn't) have anything to do with better or worse, it has everything to do with more. That's like the guy who has a 5 star chef for wife stopping at BK to get a burger on the way home. Sure, his wife's food is better, nobody in their right mind would say it wasn't, but her husband is just a glutton who can't be satisfied, so, sometimes he sneaks in junk food before he comes home to eat his wife's wonderful cooking.

What changes it in some A's is that the guy in the analogy above with the 5 star chef at home won't eat her food. He tells her he's anorexic. He's working on trying to get better, but he just has an aversion to food. Food was never his thing, it make him feel bad about himself. Never says "I don't like your food" but often pushes the plate away at the dinner table and doesn't eat.

Now if you find that guy at MCD wolfing down burgers on his way home, what do you think then? Knowing he's going to come home and play the anorexic and push his peas around the plate? Well, I think that most of us, certainly I, would say "he's lying about his anorexia, he just doesn't like his wife's cooking". Even if we know that his wife is an excellent chef, that's still the conclusion we'd draw because of his actions. The food must be better at MCD because, shoot, this guy doesn't even like to eat and I just watched him wolf down 2 Big Macs and a bucket of fries. That must be some amazing food!

And then, when questioned about his love for MCD food, that guy claims that some version of "it wasn't the food, it was the amazing bathroom they have at MCD" (when his bathroom at home is also much nicer and doesn't have the issue of random people popping in and out of it) then, at least for me, something in the logic chain breaks. And while there may be someone who's done this for the reason of "nice bathrooms" I think that most people consoling the wife would have a "logic fail" moment when she says "And he said it's all about the bathrooms". Because the point of MCD is to eat food, yes, they have bathrooms, and very, very rarely, those bathrooms might be nice. But most of the time, they are disgusting, they are shared with other people, and most of us find them rather repulsive. So it's hard to square that off when the guy claims "I always loved your cooking" after being found out; most people are going to jump to "he just likes fast food better than a home cooked meal". Just like I; and a lot of other BH's, jump to "9 inch dick" as the most likely reason because it's what affairs are known for (sex, not 9 inch members) and what they are actually good at (fast food, not fancy bathrooms). So, right or wrong (often wrong if the WW's here are to be believed, and, I think they are) men jump to the most logical conclusion "He just likes the food at MCD better", especially when you're dealing with someone who doesn't ever want to eat with you at home and then gorges themselves at MCD. But, as hard as it is for me to believe, there are people who are anorexic at home (don't want to have sex), go to MCD and gorge (have enough sex to start their own por production company in the A) and really are there because they think that this particular MCD has a nice private bathroom gilded in gold and dripping with marble (love). Even if they know that almost every MCD in the world has really disgusting bathrooms (lies instead of love).

That's what makes "romantic" infidelity so hard to comprehend. It's a fast food restaurant, that's simply not what they are known to be good at, in fact, it's what they are known to be awful at. If you love fast food but promised never to eat it again, at least I understand why I caught you arm deep in a bucket of fries. It's something you like that you gave up for me. But if you're anorexic at home, I catch you in the same fry bucket and then you claim "it was all about the bathrooms" well.. The most logical answer is "lying, just likes the food there better".

RIO - OK, so if I can torture this analogy a little further...a lot of people really like the idea of a MCD but after they've eaten it they think, 'why did I eat this crap, it's bad for me, tastes rubbish, they treat the animals horribly, the food will make me fat, etc'.

So the tempting idea of a MCD and what you actually get from it are different. It's all about the fantasy, not the reality (we'll come back to this).

I do see your point, but I think you are in danger of torturing yourself over something that cannot actually be resolved with any certainty. And I say that only because I'd like you to find some peace in all this.

I can't and am not attempting to speak for every situation, obviously. But relating it to my WW - so clearly I don't take her account at face value and only she really knows. But we live in a different country from the OM and that created a physical limit on how many times they could meet and when. I had no idea at the time, but it turned out that after a 2 month EA they managed to hook up four times over a 4 month period and then it returned to an EA that ran for about 6 months.

But until towards the end of the second phase of EA, my WW was still very invested in the relationship so it can't only have been about the physical side, because that ceased to exist.

I'd also say the whole A was a nonsense. If it wasn't so serious, it would be laughable. So what I think my wife really bought into was not him, or the sex, but the fantasy of it all. That's what she really loved, the escape from a life that for her had become humdrum and which was rolling out endlessly.

What she should have done is got a tattoo and gone on an adventure holiday with a friend. But instead she decided to put a wrecking ball through our life!

So, given that in both our cases the OM was a trade down, I suspect that the lure was not the OM's porn star qualities or actually the OM at all. The lure was the fantasy and of course, what with us inconveniently being real, that's what we couldn't compete/compare with.

HO has referred to it as projecting what you want onto someone, regardless of whether they are that person.

When it all comes crashing down the comparison at last becomes between what we offer and what the OM offers. Of the little truth offered up by my W on first discovery, the only thing that came across as at all sincere was that she wanted to be with me and never wanted to hear from him again.

Chelsea, thank you for your post. And don't mistake my posting on this with my not having made an intellectual peace with it. I have (mostly anyway), made peace with, from my analogy, my wife really was passing up food at home to gorge at MCD because she liked the bathrooms there. It's never going to be OK, but it's something where I can accept that she did it, and more important, accept that her reason why, despite making no sense at all, is actually the real why.

I'd also say the whole A was a nonsense. If it wasn't so serious, it would be laughable. So what I think my wife really bought into was not him, or the sex, but the fantasy of it all. That's what she really loved, the escape from a life that for her had become humdrum and which was rolling out endlessly.

I feel the same way. It's one of the reasons I use ridiculous analogies like MCD bathrooms. Because, honestly, if this wasn't me, I'd have to look at the situation and just laugh. Are you kidding me? This is what you seriously did and these are your serious reasons why you did them?! It would be laughable if the consequences weren't so absolutely devastating. In a lot of ways, I see the EA like a child having an imaginary friend. You might rather they had a real friend, and you might think it's a little silly and weird, but, the harm is minimal and the entire relationship lives in that child's mind. Now, if that child started running into traffic (the PA) and then said "my imaginary friend told me to do it" well, that's different. Now the consequences are deadly serious. And this isn't to say that EA's are damaging, they are because I think we all know that every EA, given enough time, will wind up with the "imaginary friend" suggesting some "dodge car" on the interstate. But I think it's the knowledge that "imaginary friends always want to play dodge car" that's the problem more than the imaginary friend itself.

In my long life I've been exposed a few times to those guys on the prowl like RIO describes. Some were subtle and some were not. One said "nice shoes, want to f***". She did and they did. He apparently was successful enough to keep using the direct approach. Again, most were more subtle but successful, too.

I didn't hang around with these guys much except when I was doing some rodeoing as a young man. Some of the cowboys were looking for opportunities in each new town.

How are ONS born? Never met before, won't meet again and don't know names. I've never had one but my WW did and one was when we were talking serious. Apparently one method is to go to a dance, drink a few, dance a lot, blood racing, fuck and go home.

Later on, when working professionally, it was different. I wasn't invited out to a few drinks much after work because I was known as being pretty straight laced. But when I was there was frequently talk about who's done who and who are worth approaching. A lot of innuendo but also proof. It happens. I would say that this group was a rather small part of the total male population.

My first sex was with the woman who would become my WW. It was embarrassingly short before ejaculation. I still remember over 40 years later. Just acknowledging what RIO wrote about duration of act and amount of discharge with the "new". My only experience with that.

I'm the high sex drive part of what my marriage used to be. I liked sex. I liked snuggling and spooning before and after sex. I probably still would. I wanted way to much sex for my WW. She willingly gave her AP sex whenever, wherever, however he wanted it. There wasn't any romance, time together (even when possible), gifts, meals, candles, massages, etc. All they did was meet, screw, and leave - either him from her hotel room or her from his place.

So what was it? I think it might have started with this romantic element but then she had to put out to keep him. Once that happened the romance seemed to be gone. She did feel light and happy after the quickies with only sex for 3 years.

There had to be some sort of validation. I doubt she'll ever know why screwing him and coming home to me felt so good to her. There was never going to be a future with him. Her future was with me. Our life long goal was achieved when she broke it off with him (by moving rather than telling him). The goal no longer exists now.