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gettingoveritall,

It sounds like you have a firm handle, or at least as firm of a handle as a bs can get in terms of how all of these things inter-relate.

I agree, it's not really temporary insanity - but some of the things that you did and said, and even who you did them with, are so illogical. I am the one who did them. Those answers usually come back to me as "desperation" rather than insanity. But, I am aware that they sound bat-shit crazy.

I can understand where Rideitout struggles with that. It seems like he and I end up having good debates of perspective, and I admit sometimes it helps me to formulate some answers that in the long run help me to communicate with my husband. The challenge of coming from opposite sides I suppose.

I don't know why it takes some longer, some shorter time. Some of it runs deeper or more trauma in formative years. Sometimes depending, a person can't go looking to solve a problem they never knew they had. A lot of the tributaries of the pain for me were really caused at the root as lack of self worth. You can trace them clearly - being adaptive rather than authentic, being a work-a-holic, supermom, super wife, being more concerned with showing the outward success than really feeling that success within me. When the last kid left, and I was still working 18 hour days, there was just a breaking point of I didn't want this life any more. I had numbed myself from doing any soul searching on this to the extent I am not sure I even knew how miserable I was. Some of the warning signs of being in some sort of crisis mode were hidden even to me.

It's not hard to see how one can be ripe for a tumble of some sort in the midst of a crisis. It would have been easier maybe for my husband to understand if I became the alcholic I am comparing myself to.

Sure there would have been damage, but he would outwardly know if the drinking continued. Might be easier to build trust in the light of seeing someone completely sober for years on end. Affairs are not the same in any sense of the word for the BS, and building the trust as you know is not an easier path. If I had been an alcoholic, my husband might have seen this more clearly as a way of escaping pain, an addiction, or at least less of an affront on him personally.

Anyway, I am rambling. It's been a day of reflecting and while I find I need them less and less about this topic, it's still so helpful to be able to voice it and be heard sometimes. The further down this road I go, the more I can understand what happens, the more compassion I can show to myself. I can see that I am healing. Probably a long ways to go.

In terms of long term or short term insanity - I think that I have always had poor coping, and never got my self worth from an internal source. It manifested THIS TIME by acting out this way, but I could give other ways I have acted out. Some I had already evolved from, some still have to be worked on. But, I don't think this happens in a vacuum.

I do think my husband gets most of this as we have communicated a lot on it. I think being able to internalize it more fully and get to a point it's firmer to him. That will take some time and not really the main priority at the moment.

I don't know why it takes some longer, some shorter time. Some of it runs deeper or more trauma in formative years. Sometimes depending, a person can't go looking to solve a problem they never knew they had. A lot of the tributaries of the pain for me were really caused at the root as lack of self worth. You can trace them clearly - being adaptive rather than authentic, being a work-a-holic, supermom, super wife, being more concerned with showing the outward success than really feeling that success within me.

This describes how my wife was. A perfectionist. Always working on the outward facade for public consumption. Not saying this to be critical, I just see it now. It's heartbreaking, actually.

I think her infidelity took her so long to come to grips with because her attention-seeking from men as a measure of worthiness began in adolescence. Early in our relationship she asked me if I had a crush on a female coworker. I don't remember her asking this, but she brought it up post-Dday in one of our discussions. Even though I had truthfully said no, she thought that of course I must have a crush on her because that is what she did. I was just lying to her. Everyone did that all the time, they just didn't ever talk about it or admit it. It took her time to truly see that how she had acted was not what everybody did all the time. It was her go-to "drug" of choice.

My issue is that I always want to understand things rationally. I get FOO issues and coping mechanisms, but the day to day affair behavior is bat-shit crazy. I just have to talk myself out of going down that hole when I step in it.

[This message edited by Gettingoveritall at 1:59 PM, February 1st (Friday)]

My issue is that I always want to understand things rationally.

I don't think you are alone there. My husband only understands logic. And, honestly a lot of time that is me as well. You are right, there isn't any. The closest thing that I can get to that may help a little further is this:

People who have these issues - perfectionism and getting validation only through others (which is false anyway - we are actually getting validation through OUR PERCEPTION of how others see us. OR better yet - we play a role to the person of how WE THINK they want us to be and then make up a perception of how they see us as a result)

That's a confusing way of saying a lot of what we do is play-acting, people pleasing. However, WE don't recognize we are even doing it. We do it from the time we are children - it is an ingrained coping mechanism. For me, early in life it was maybe to be pretty and an excellent student. After I grew up and got married, I wanted to be seen as hardworking, intelligent, selfless, and loving. In the affair, I wanted to be seen as sexy, vibrant and an ideal romantic partner.

This chameleon stuff came from living in dysfunction growing up and not wanting my peers to realize it, and by blending into the family as to not draw attention to myself as to not bring wrath to me. So during my life I did things that supported that. I would make up stories about my life in junior high to make it seem like I had one. (Truth is people knew I was lying).

So with all that - I believe some of the irrational behavior is acting out our perception of what the other person wants us to be. It's coming from such an inauthentic place we don't recognize it ourselves. All of it is feeding them X to get Y. Operating from an authentic place and putting down perfectionism and people pleasing is not an easy departure. But, once you know the depths it goes to then you can recognize it and correct. I feel like every day I am correcting my course and it's steering me more and more towards who I WANT to be.

And with that, I think I have vomited up more about my psyche than anyone probably wants to hear...so I will bid everyone a good weekend!

OMG that seems to fit our situation perfectly. WXH was struggling with his job, not feeling appreciated, and had been for several years. Then he fell in love with OW, she got a D and now they are married, artistic and very happy with a whole new group of friends (at least on the surface.) They own a business so he can control when he wants to work and appreciate himself so much!

Thanks all for the comments in this thread, especially you Hiking out, I always find your posts help me to find empathy for my WH, this is important to me, as I parent alongside him often, so thank you. I’m sorry it made you cry but glad you could find some worth in it.

I’m glad it’s made some of the betrayed here feel less alone. I love how clear it is about the dysfunction of the AP, but what I’m still ruminating on today is the idea of the ‘sane spouse’ and good marriage and how, rather than work as a positive, it works to make the wayward feel even more isolated and alone and push them further towards the AP. I agree that this happens in these type of affairs, (from what I read on here) we all talk about the feeling of parenting a teenager while our spouses are involved and it was certainly the case in my own marriage but I’ll be interested to read more about the dynamics of that. Hope the book clears that up for me!

[This message edited by Dragonfly123 at 2:58 PM, February 1st (Friday)]

Dragonfly Yes parenting a teenager is exactly it!!!

HO trust me on this. While it may have been easier for your husband to understand if you became an alcoholic living with it is fucking awful and it also threatens the physical as well as emotional safety of your loved ones and rather than preventing infidelity likely encourages it.

Always interesting to hear what HO says, as I have said before, your opinions and perspective echo what my WW said to me almost to the letter.

But as RIO said, there's something reassuring about hearing it from someone who has no personal agenda. It's not that I didn't believe my W (eventually, post TT) but simply that it provides her account with more credibility.

And as others have touched on, one of the hardest things to do as a BS is get your head around the irrationality of it all. 'A logic' I am sure even to the WS sounds completely crazy once you have perspective on it all. But it doesn't stop the BS trying to make 'sense of it all'.

And as others have touched on, one of the hardest things to do as a BS is get your head around the irrationality of it all. 'A logic' I am sure even to the WS sounds completely crazy once you have perspective on it all. But it doesn't stop the BS trying to make 'sense of it all'.

The really difficult thing, at least for some, is that there are perfectly logical reasons to have an A. It doesn't make them moral, right, or even a little bit better (in fact, it might make them worse), but, I know plenty of guys who have/had affairs to logical reasons. And, for me, the "logical reason" for my W to have an A would take R off the table because (again, just for me) it would mean that she's too unsafe a partner. If my W's reason for an A was "I just wanted more sex" I wouldn't have any logical disconnect, that's what she wanted, that's what she got. Pretty much that's all they did together, so everything would line up neatly, wanted A, did what's necessary to get A, minimized time doing anything but A, and got A from the affair. All logically consistent. If you read the stats on A's, well, then it becomes even clearer, while I'd hate what she did, there's not arguing "A's are a good place to look for more sex" because, without question, they are.

However, all that said, my W giving me that as an answer for "why" would be unacceptable to me. Not because I wouldn't believe her, I would, but because it would make her too unsafe a partner. She gets "soft offers" for sex on a daily, sometimes hourly (depending where we are) basis. The world is a brothel with a suitcase of money in tow for her, she could have NSA sex 20X a day with different men each time if she so desired. So "more sex", while a reasonable answer, would be the end of the marriage for me because I simply couldn't contend with the constant worry; is today the day she get's "the itch" that only another man can scratch? Who knows, and I'm not living with that cocked gun pointed at my head 24X7.

This is coupled with the knowledge that I've gotten over the years from other men who've had A's. When they are discovered, the "why" question with the wife turns into what you often see here. FOO issues, felt unappreciated, dead bedroom, midlife crisis, felt invisible... But, after a few drinks with the "buddies" and the truth comes free "she had a great ass", "she had a reputation as a freak in bed", "blew me in the car everywhere we went", and all other manners of things that aren't at all what they are telling their wives, but which sound infinitely more believable than some psychological injury they got at 10 years old. But they intrinsically know that an answer for why cannot be "Jeff from accounting dated her and told me she loved anal sex and I just needed to try for myself".

And that's the quandary. Because there are some fraction of WS's who are saying they why is "My father never showed me the love I wanted" when their 'real' why is "I heard he had a huge package". What's the percentage? I have no idea, but, in my life, I can say it's close to 100%; cheating men who when caught, suddenly decide their A had nothing to do about what they heard from Jeff in accounting and everything to do with some deeply held childhood or marriage issue that, while perhaps true, had just about 0 to do with the actual affair. And some of us are being lied to by our WS's, their "reasons" don't seem to make any sense because they are lies. Others are not being lied to, their reasons make no sense because they weren't operating logically and made poor decisions. Telling those groups apart is both near impossible and also, at the same time, near imperative to be able to successfully R.

Applying Occam's Razor to an A, at least for the men I know, is very effective. Why rob a bank? Because that's where the money is. Why have an A? Because that's where the kinky (or just more) sex is. Consistent, logical and easy to understand if perhaps difficult to accept. But Occam's Razor doesn't work at all for a romantic A. Why have an A? I wanted someone to love me. Well that's about as inconsistent as it gets; A's almost never include a "love" element in them from both waywards, it's just not something you're likely to get from an affair anymore than robbing a bank because you wanted to steal the Hope diamond (which, for those who don't know, is in the Smithsonian, not a bank). Robbing a bank for cash, morally reprehensible, logically consistent. Robbing a bank for the Hope diamond, morally reprehensible, logically inconsistent. But if the punishment for robbing a bank for something the bank doesn't actually have was lower than robbing a bank for something it does have was less severe, I can promise you, you'd start getting a lot of "Hope diamond" answers in the interrogation box. And honestly, some of that makes sense because if, after laughing your head off after that interrogation, you informed the perp that the Hope diamond isn't in the bank vault and that was their goal for robbing the bank, well, they are far less likely to re-offend than the guy who was after cash (which they actually do have in the bank vault). But it's my firm belief that we get a lot of "Hope diamond" answers as BS's because that's the "right way to get a light sentence", not because that's what the WS was actually looking for when they "robbed the bank".

It's posters like Hiking that really help here because they aren't in the interrogation box (at least not with any of us). And when she answers "Hope diamond" and then explains how she came to think and believe that, well, she's got no reason to lie to us, she really did think that's what she was after and likely to get from the A. It's still very hard to understand and believe though, because it just feels so impossible to understand, everyone knows where the Hope diamond is (and where it isn't), how did you (not you personally Hiking, anyone embarking on a "Romantic" A) not know? If my wife had spent 10 seconds on Google she would have found out what typically happens in an A, you'd think that level of rigor would be applied for such a life altering decision? If we're gearing up for a heist at the Fargo branch of Wells Fargo to get the Hope diamond, darn right I'm going to Google "Is the Hope diamond in Fargo" before I kick in the door. No way I'm taking all that risk without making 100% sure I'm going to get something valuable to me from it!

I guess RIO that most WW don't start with an intention of going from A to B, it's done in lots of tiny steps, which build up into A behaviour and then an A. So they don't think about what they are doing because they don't see it in those terms (which may be genuine or perhaps they construct a narrative so it doesn't feel like that).

Even knowing what I know now, I don't think my wife set out to have an A and in addition she is in lots of situations where she is away from home with work and in mixed company, so opportunities abound. So if I had concluded that she was an unsafe person generally there would be no way to to R (and should I find out it ever happens again I would instantly D).

That in no way absolves her from her responsibilities in all this, but I don't think it was predetermined, but rather it happened in little steps that crossed little lines until it had arrived in completely the wrong place. And then to justify that she demonised our relationship, thought it was love, blah, blah. You know the story.

Looking back I genuinely think she wonders what the f*ck she was on. As with so many other stories, this guy was really not worth risking anything on.

I suspect that the above is one of the most common 'models' for an A in simple terms.

It's been a hard journey to reconcile all this and the very fact it happened still hurts like hell. But I guess at some point you have to resolve on R or D and embrace it and hope you've made the right decision!

I find this interesting.

My wh started to spiral out of control when he was given wrong meds. The meds he had made his anxiety worse.

He has an lta during some of that time but in hindsight I can see the personality change.

Them now that he is in the right meds he doesn’t understand his thoughts and actions during that period.

For him the stressor wouldnhave been the meds but also he was having issues at work. The main part of the a happened after he was fired from a part time job.

Very interesting.

Hi Chelsea & Ridingitout,

Yes, I feel Chelsea has hit the nail on the head here. And especially where he says "I think she wonders what the f was she on". Some of it isn't logical.

I am going to come at this maybe a different way (or try)

As I have said I didn't say "Hey I know, I will have an A and he will love me". I wasn't looking for sex or love. The mindset I was in was I was miserable. Most of that misery was of my own making.

I don't think people cheat because of FOO issues. I think almost single person has FOO issues of some sort. And, if they don't, then that's awesome. IC takes you back to FOO because it helps you understand how you learned certain behaviors - especially defense mechanisms or coping skills. The more trauma and chaos in the childhood probably the more skewed both of those things are. But, acknowledging that, understanding that is about fixing those things which is needed after an affair. It's kind of like you said if the reason was more sex then you would just be waiting for the next shoe to drop. If your wife doesn't learn better coping and fix those other things it's just as dangerous. And, that's why we focus on that to some degree.

The reality of the situation is I had an affair because I didn't cope with or manage my life in a way that I could value it any longer. I didn't talk to my husband about things that were making me unhappy and because I was unable to (conflict avoidance) they became unsurmountable in my head.

Because I had been hiding from the pain I was feeling by staying busy, I did no self examination or introspection at all. I was numb. I didn't feel pain and I didn't feel joy. And, I didn't understand - I would have these outbursts of crying (I am not a crying kind of woman so this was out of character for me), they were all signs I needed to slow down and sit with some things and kind of plot out a course of action.

Unfortunately, that isn't what I did. I became isolated, and when you are isolated you are lonely. Talking to someone who is virtually a stranger felt easier to me. Probably because I was hiding so much of myself and making things with my husband seem so unsurmountable that it was just a pressure release valve. I don't know if you have ever had that experience - in a bar or a chance encounter before you were married that it hit right at the right time and you told someone things you hadn't said outloud in a long time?

And, you know sometimes I do think that some of your theories about someone needing to be the predatory one in the A might be true. I have resisted it because I really do want to take as much ownership of this affair as I can. But, the person I had an affair with was a serial cheater. So, maybe he inherently knew the signs and there was some pattern to it.

Once I had made that connection with someone else after not feeling it for so long, I sought THAT out. I wasn't looking to have an affair even though quickly I knew I was on a slippery slope and didn't do anything to change the course of it.

I became more and more reliant on the attention and the exchanges. They were mostly light and funny. Inappropriate, yes. He started quickly pushing boundaries. I didn't stop and examine anything. I know a google search would have been helpful. I also know that I knew it was wrong.

Before I knew it, I was fully invested. I kind of felt like the boundaries had been crossed early on. And, early on, it was clear he was looking for added sex. I didn't really think about whether I would let it go there, I had no plan. Instead, I chose to be flattered that he found me sexually desireable (yeah, I know I had two arms and two legs and a heartbeat).

Through staying extremely busy and not being in touch with myself I felt like an old woman, and now here I get to play out that I am a young, vibrant, desireable thing. I was less lonely. But, I was further alienated from my husband and family because now I had a secret.

It didn't take long before I was completely dependent on the AP for attention, support, fun, etc. The only time I felt good was when I was interacting with him. That's when the love part got confused. I didn't understand that I was isolated. I didn't understand that I was just desperate. I was then completely focused 100% on him - I would call it obsessed. Logic just left the building.

And, maybe he did play me like a fiddle as an experienced cheater. It doesn't matter. I still made all those decisions myself even if I wasn't really watching the road, I had the steering wheel in my own hands. I knew what I was doing was wrong. I had to ignore a whole lot but by this time I am a crackhead looking for another fix and not thinking about what it's doing to my life. I only focused on feeling good.

It's not something I am proud to type out. But, it's very much like the article said....it wasn't that someone wonderful came along. It was SOMETHING came along that made me feel something again. I could have changed the course at any time, but under my emotional conditions I didn't want to.

And, that's where all the FOO issues, and ripping apart your defense and coping - looking at why you are conflict avoidant and changing that, looking at how you were managing your life that got you so unhappy and changing how you do those things. That's all our form of what you are talking about if it had been sex it would have been a dealbreaker because it is always out there and available - like walking around with a cocked gun. Without fixing those things you will reoffend down the road or pick up a different bad way to cope or manage. Whether it becomes overeating, drinking, gambling, shopping, whatever.

I am always amazed that you think there isn't anything wrong with these men other than bad morals who cheat on their wives. They likely have a fake ego, and they of course are looking to impress other men with their sexual exploits. But knowing the wives of some of these men, and some of these men themselves...they have many, many issues that contribute to cheating. You don't see it because you do not have them. Sure, you can understand how they want more sex, but you do not fully understand how it's within them to go out and get it. Be glad about that, it makes you a safer partner. But, you really have to stop simplifying them because it's not the case. I can swear to you that I would NEVER want to sit with a group of women and brag about sex with the AP. The thought of that makes me want to throw up. But, women are kind of different in that way - other women are not going to be impressed with that for one - and for two, we have full capacity of our feelings about something completely changing the way we look at and feel about something. It gives me the heebie jeebies I let that guy touch me and that is just the plain truth. I hope you saw what barregirl posted to you the other day about that site being highschool and young twenties. I believe only the emotionally immature can go on about affair sex...it sounds like you know some very emotionally immature men.

Thanks HO, definitely in my wife's case a huge amount of it was the external validation. It comes out in other parts of her life, she really craves recognition for her work, for example.

When she had her A we were not in one of the better places in our M (and for sake of fairness, that was mainly on me) and I think one of the primary motivators was that she felt like a middle-aged, over-worked mum and had lost her 'feminine validation' for want of a better phrase.

Along came a Facebook connection with a very ex-BF (long story, but even knowing what I know now, I still believe was innocent to start with) and of course he knew the buttons to press. So as in your situation, I do genuinely feel there was a predator but I agree, this in no way absolves her of anything.

Unfortunately, and I suspect this is the same as your situation, bad timing plays its part. My W says, convincingly, that had they connected a year later she wouldn't have even looked twice at him.

Unfortunately, and I suspect this is the same as your situation, bad timing plays its part. My W says, convincingly, that had they connected a year later she wouldn't have even looked twice at him.

I agree wholeheartedly.

As I climb out of all that though, I think the most important thing I can do now is at least reap as much good from it as I can. And, I can see that is working very well. Everyone (especially my husband) had to suffer from this, it would be a waste to try not and bring every nuance of good from it by growing and healing and becoming more. Giving him (AND ME) the best of myself for the rest of my life. I find a lot of peace and purpose in that - it stabilizes me.

There is no way sitting where I sit and looking over all that has happened that an interloper would be able to infiltrate that. That's why I believe your wife, I know it's possible.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:28 AM, February 5th (Tuesday)]

My own theory is this:

Loving and being IL mean, to me, that we bring out each other's best. I'm a better person - more capable and more moral - with my W than without her, and she's better with me than without me.

It's reasonable to think, then that there are people who could bring out the worst in a person. W was a worse person with ow than without her, and ow was worse with W than without her.

If W & I are 'soulmates,' W and ow were 'anti-soulmates.'

I think both can feel like 'love' and 'in love.'

I've mentioned this a few times on SI, but no one has picked up on it.

******

I can't accept the idea that some men just plain think with their dicks.

My bet is that an objective observer knowledgeable about human behavior would point out that sex-driven infidelity is actually driven by some internal motivator like a) desire for external validation, b) sexual insecurity, c) screwed up thoughts (for example: madonna-whore, ambivalence about sex due to religious upbringing), d) etc., etc., etc..

If all one wants is an orgasm, there are lots easier ways to achieve that than finding a partner. If it's a matter of spreading one's seed, the best way to do that is to sell one's seed, which is also easier than finding a partner.

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:45 AM, February 5th (Tuesday)]

I think Sisoon that it's also about the AP (and the WS I guess) fulfilling a perceived unmet need and therefore seeming like they are the 'answer to everything'.

My W's A lasted for a year and went EA, PA, back to EA (thanks to geography) and over the course of the latter six months it fizzled out. I think in large part that's because once the initial excitement is over, it becomes apparent that the AP might be good at fulfilling the specific need (say ego and validation) but as - by definition - they aren't very nice people, they are rubbish at fulfilling any of the other needs that make a real relationship.

So before long, rather than comparing well to the BS, they start comparing badly.

That also fits the 'A down' theory.

On the flip side, the AP gets the worst of the WS - the one who is secretive, a liar, deceives their family, can only give them their 'spare' time, etc.

Discovering after that fact (about 18 months later), I initially had a hard time understanding how it concluded, expecting there to be some sort of defining moment. But really they both just started to see each other for who they were and (while I accept I am hardly unbiased here), the AP was a complete selfish arse!

Ok so this is my story but I'm sure that this is very typical of how and why many As fade away.

I can't accept the idea that some men just plain think with their dicks.

IMHO, you need to. I was that man, first off, so I have intrinsic experience with it. But, forgetting me for a moment, evolutionary biology tells us that is the case. As much as it might offend us to say this, in ancient history, sex had almost nothing to do with "external validation", "sexual insecurity" or any FOO issues. No, sex was often a violent act (at worst) and at best was almost entirely based on opportunity. All the constructs that we hold dear today are a blink in the eye of evolution, and, evolution, for better or worse, has shaped who we are today. The men that didn't have a burning desire to sleep with anything that walked, well, those men are gone from the gene pool. And, you can see this in women as well (serious trigger warning coming); a whole lot more women that would be expected (which would be approaching 0) have rape fantasies and like violent sex. The reason these traits got passed on, the women who participated sexually in ancient history often had to deal with this reality. Sex was often at very best "rapey" and at worst, just flat out rape. And most of us sitting here today, men and women, are descended from men who were wildly promiscuous and women who liked rough sex enough to not just hide and/or cut off all association with men entirely (as rough sex was pretty much the order of the day). A man looking for "love" in a sex partner makes no sense evolutionary, in fact, it would be a huge negative in nature's quest to have us reproduce. The men who were "choosy".. Most of those lines died out quickly, that was a handicap to reproduction, not something that evolution would/will select for. For a funny take on this, watch the first 15 minutes of Idiocracy; which argues that high IQ has become an evolutionary handicap (which I think is unarguably true), it's basically the same thing, but spread out over millennia upon millennia of human history.

My bet is that an objective observer knowledgeable about human behavior would point out that sex-driven infidelity is actually driven by some internal motivator like a) desire for external validation, b) sexual insecurity, c) screwed up thoughts (for example: madonna-whore, ambivalence about sex due to religious upbringing), d) etc., etc., etc..

You can always dig so deep that you wind up in a hole with no view of the sky anymore. And I feel like that's what happens a lot when we "drill down" on A's, particularly male A's. Yes, perhaps some male AP's are seeking validation from an A. Perhaps some have sexual insecurity. And perhaps some can't see their wives sexually anymore. In fact, I'm SURE that there are some in all those groups. But it doesn't take all that digging in most cases, it really doesn't, IMHO. Men are programmed to seek and pursue sex. Just like all other male animals (and a few female as well). It's just what we do because that's what our nature compels us to do. Why do dogs chase deer? Because that's what their biology tells them to do. Can you train a dog to not chase deer? Yes, you can, and successfully in most cases. But even a very well trained dog still has the desire to chase deer and, further, if he thinks he can get away with it, might chase a deer if nobody is around to correct him. Is that because the dog has foo issues, or it is just the dog being a dog?

Any perhaps your right, perhaps most male AP's are all "foo-ed" up, I suppose that's a possibility. But, knowing my share of male cheats, their drivers sound a lot more like a dog chasing a deer than a dog trying to contemplate life and deciding that deer chasing is the "less painful" option, consequences be damned.

And none of this, for those who don't know my stance on this, excuses male cheats AT ALL. It, IMHO, gives the "why", but the why doesn't mean it's OK. If someone mows down my family and I pick up a gun and shoot him, nobody is going to look at me and think "why??".. They know why. I'm still punished for it though, same as if I'd killed anyone else, even though most people would agree that "justice is served" by my actions.

On the flip side, the AP gets the worst of the WS - the one who is secretive, a liar, deceives their family, can only give them their 'spare' time, etc.

If you want the AP's time or love, I agree with you. However, my personal situation (and I believe the OP's), that's not true at all. My W's AP got the "best version" of her sexually. I'm 95% convinced he didn't give a single crap about who she was deceiving or just getting her spare time, he was getting exactly what he wanted from her. Now, yes, if it's a relationship your after, I agree entirely with you. But a lot of AP's aren't after that at all, they are entering an A for other reasons, and, if that reason is sex, very often they don't get the "scraps", they get the main course and dessert. That's my situation, and it's not all that uncommon.

If all one wants is an orgasm, there are lots easier ways to achieve that than finding a partner. If it's a matter of spreading one's seed, the best way to do that is to sell one's seed, which is also easier than finding a partner.

But no ways (that I know of) that are as pleasurable. I've said this a few times, the moment they release something like the "Male Rabbit" is the moment we'll have a major problem on our hands. Because if masturbation is "better than" sex, well, you're going to get a lot of guys deciding not to pursue sex anymore and a lot more unpartnered couples. In some ways, we're already seeing that (porn induced ED, for example or the "herbivore" movement in some countries where men just drop out of society). Sex is a valuable commodity to many men, so much so putting a price on it, men are willing to pay 100's to 1000's of dollars per hour to have NSA sex. And have been for all of recorded history. I'm not sure how much better an indicator you can get than that.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 12:56 PM, February 5th (Tuesday)]

Men are programmed to seek and pursue sex.

Precisely what I have been learning in IC and while it explains this behavior it doesn't make it any easier to accept. If anything it makes me feel even moreso that M doesn't hold any kind of meaning and monogamy is indeed futile.

What I'm left with is a bad taste in my mouth about men.

I can't accept the idea that some men just plain think with their dicks.

IMHO, you need to. I was that man, first off, so I have intrinsic experience with it. But, forgetting me for a moment, evolutionary biology tells us that is the case.

I have asked this before...

You say repeatedly how motivated you are by sex, and what a cad you were in your youth. You were not getting the sex you wanted, not by a long shot. Why didn't you cheat? You obviously know that you could do it because you are that sexually motivated, but you committed yourself not to. So, you are an operator of genitilia and have the ability to keep it in check.

When men are young - thinking with their genitilia is to be expected. I have a nephew who just started college and he changes ladies like I have never seen. It's a revolving door. His dad was that way too. It was almost comical to watch (we went to the same school back in those days) Now, the most faithful and dutiful husband I know outside of my own.

What changed? Maturity of course.

The AP in my situation was over 60 years old. I will just use that as an example since it's one I am familiar with. At some point, a man who has affairs all his marriage and into his 60's...can you not see there is something missing there that might be more than "thinking with their genitilia?" Which I am sure he did do to some degree. To me, it always seemed like he needed a lot of attention (not sexual) and praise (could be sexual but mostly not). By his own admission he only took care of his own needs once a week, that to me does not scream overwhelming sex drive.

I 1000% believe some people are emotionally immature and go around trying to get laid, and I believe a larger percentage of this group are men than women. But, I think you can't connect with broken because you are not so you have trouble believing it exists. Often I believe it's the sex combined with something - something to prove, wanting to know they "still got it", whatever...that boils down to validation.

Precisely what I have been learning in IC and while it explains this behavior it doesn't make it any easier to accept.

Good, that's exactly the message you should get. Except I might change that last part to "it doesn't mean you have to accept it". Men are programmed to kill their rivals too, we seem to (most of us) get over that urge. Just because our biology tells us to do something does NOT mean we have to do it. It's a REASON, yes, but it's not an excuse for socially unacceptable behavior.

If anything it makes me feel even moreso that M doesn't hold any kind of meaning and monogamy is indeed futile.

I don't read that at all from "men are programmed to seek sex". M holds a TON of meaning if you believe that statement a ton! Because what a man is saying is "I will overcome my desire for sex with new people for you and commit myself to just you forever". That's a HUGE statement. Imagine if you loved cake. Like, just LOVED it, it was your favorite food in the world. Your husband only "kind of likes" cake. He can take it or leave it. For some reason, as part of your wedding vows, you've both decided that "and vow to never eat cake again" will be part of your promises to one another and God. Well, hearing your H say it, yeah, it has value, and your glad that he's willing to do it for you, but, you know that "cake doesn't mean that much to him anyway". But you saying it, when you LOVVVEE cake? That carries a lot more meaning, doesn't it? And that's the situation for me, personally, getting married. I was promising not to do something (sex with other people) that I had really enjoyed in the past ever again. My wife was making the same promise, but she didn't really enjoy it that much, so it was less of a big deal for her (and then she cheated and has a porn star sex life with another man; don't get me started on how angry that makes me).

No, it doesn't mean that monogamy is futile anymore than it means that not murdering is a "silly law" (because men are programmed to kill too). It does mean that it's hard though, and that some people will fail. But just because something is hard that in no way means it's not valuable. In fact, in a lot of ways, the harder something is to achieve, the more valuable it is. We put a high price on gold because it's HARD to get, not because it's easy. I see monogamy the same way, it has value because our programming tells us to do something else. If we were truly monogamous by nature, well, what value would a vow have? Of course you won't sleep with other people, you're monogamous!

You say repeatedly how motivated you are by sex, and what a cad you were in your youth. You were not getting the sex you wanted, not by a long shot. Why didn't you cheat? You obviously know that you could do it because you are that sexually motivated, but you committed yourself not to. So, you are an operator of genitilia and have the ability to keep it in check.

For the same reason I don't steal from my employer (despite also being very motivated by money), because I promised not to. It's that simple. I never meant to imply that men can't keep it in check. They can, and they do. But, if a man is cheating, there is; IMHO, a tremendous likely hood that his reason for cheating comes down to "he didn't keep it in check" rather than some deep seated FOO issue. I can't imagine a man not sympathizing with the urge that I think we all have to sleep with other women, it's intrinsic and we all (or most of us) feel it as a pressing thing in our lives for a very long time. But many of us tamp that urge down for a variety of reasons, promised not to, religious reasons, fear (pregnancy/disease), social conditioning.. And that list can go on for a very, very long time. But I'd argue the urge is there in most of us because of the evolutionary forces at play that made us who we are today.

At some point, a man who has affairs all his marriage and into his 60's...can you not see there is something missing there that might be more than "thinking with their genitilia?"

I wouldn't claim that it's the ONLY reason for male A's. I'd claim is the most likely reason (and further claim that absent very strong evidence to the contrary, it's almost certainly the reason). Is it so hard to believe that a 60 year old man still has a very high sex drive? Because I know some cheaters of that age, and they are popping the little pills and chasing women just a 20 year old. At some point, yes, the drive for sex is just extinguished in men, and, I'd further argue, that when that point comes, the rate of male A's approaches 0. Without the drive for sex, there's no "payoff" that makes an A worth it (from my perspective, but I think that most of the cheaters I know strongly resemble that comment). Sex is the thing that drove me to pursue women, it wasn't romance, it wasn't ego kibbles and it wasn't a desire to be understood and loved. Those thing could grow out of the desire for sex but none of them were anywhere near strong enough to get me out of the house on another Friday night to a bar that I didn't really want to go to dropping lines to women that I didn't find all that attractive to begin with. It was the massive drive for sex that spurred me to action.

Imagine yourself laying comfortably in bed. You're a little hungry and know you have a snack in the other room so you walk out to get it. Same situation, except now you have no food in the house, your car broke down, the store is 5 miles away, and it's 10 degrees and hailing out. Do you walk it to get the food? And if you don't and I do, which one of us was hungrier? It was my drive for food that drove me to walk to the store, my burning hunger, where you thought "oh well, tomorrow" and rolled over and drifted back to sleep. That's the kind of thing that sex drove me to do, the long walk through the night in the rain just for a shot at it. And that's the part that I think a lot of people simply cannot understand. You cannot imagine how motivating sex is to some people, so, when they march through the night you think to yourself "eating disorder" or "family must not have fed him as a child" or lots of other things. That guy marching along might have those issues, but he also might just be real hungry and have a huge motivation to get some food. And in most cases, I think it's the latter rather than the former.