Hey WCE!
Sooo, I know this post is from a while ago. I honestly started typing out a response the day after you first posted. Then when I realized it had gotten to 20 pages long in my Google Doc, I figured there was a lot of personal baggage in there that you didn't need.
Also, yes, I pre-type my posts in Google Docs because they feel like journal entries and I often like to bring things up in IC, and I'm a control freak who majored in English and can't seem to avoid posting dissertations instead of 2x4s and then I get self conscious about my long-posting and don't post for 3 weeks+ 
But I have thought about you and what you're going through a lot. So I felt like I should stop worrying about what internet strangers think and just reply. Here it is!
My main piece of advice is to go into this with a lot of love and compassion, but also to keep your eyes wide open.
Are there questions I should ask? Anything more I should do here?
How are you taking care of YOU during all of this? When you have a partner trying to deal with any addiction, it's very easy for codependent behavior to rear its ugly head. It feels good to finally have an "answer" to what the "problem" is, but then you can become so focused on fixing the problem with/for them that you lose track of you and your own healing.
You seem to have your head on your shoulders and a damn good perspective on all of this, if I were to judge based on your other posts on SI. I know you've mentioned that you've been going to MC and that your husband has an IC, but do you have your own IC? Each discovery of porn, live cam, etc., no matter how big or small, is like it's own trauma. Make sure you are taking time to process each of those too.
All of this stuff is like triage - it seems obvious that you operate on the worst wound first, because otherwise you wouldn't survive. More often than not, the most gaping wound is the physical infidelity, so that's what we all discuss. But there are still a bunch of other, smaller wounds - your mini traumas of the various porn/live cam discoveries for example. And yes, they didn't need to be handled in the moment for your immediate survival, but if you let them go untreated they will fester and could lead to even bigger problems down the line.
It sounds like his IC is on your side, so let her do the talking for now. Oftentimes it takes an outsider’s perspective to help someone see the truth of the matter, and he could be viewing you as an adversary right now. He might see you as the porn “gate-keeper”, which could make you the target of some anger as he cycles through the grief stages.
Remember, you are not his therapist, you are his wife! You can be there for him and support him, but he really has to put in the work on his own in order to see results. The most important thing you can do right now is to take care of yourself! Keep your head up, and keep reaching out when you need it.
At the same time, I have nagging doubts that are largely formless right now. It is hard to tell if it is a gut reaction to the defensiveness and lack of accountability, and sensing that he really does (on some level that I think he really does not want to admit) dread having to giving up porn completely and forever.
These feelings are absolutely normal. You have been consistently re-traumatized by his behaviors, so it is a natural reaction to have your guard up, and I wouldn't expect it to go down for quite a while. You might find that over time, your wall stays down for the most part, for days or even weeks at a time. But then little triggers come up and you'll have a knee-jerk reaction and the wall will go back up again for a bit. This is normal. Go ahead and come up with a list of activities for yourself that you can turn to whenever you are triggered. If a relapse happens you’ll of course have to face it, but your main focus should be making sure that you are OK. So if that means distracting yourself for a while with a good book, or a long walk, then so be it.
The thing is, all addicts really do dread giving up their addictions. They've used it as a coping mechanism for so long, there is a huge adjustment when learning how to live without it. The urge may never fully go away. But with time, the hope is that if they want to they can learn to control these urges and redirect their feelings to more positive behavior.
I am curious to know what you think, HHADL, and also anyone else who is following my strange little saga.
I think it sounds like he truly wants to work on it, and that is seriously awesome. I will say that I would be cautiously optimistic - which it seems like you are - but he sounds like he is at least open to all of it!
he is genuinely interested to learn more about himself on this score, and gain a more honest perspective.
This is so great, a huge step for him! Self awareness, and the ability to communicate honestly are definitely the best weapons you could ask for in combating this.
His counselor indicated suspicions that porn/sex addiction was likely an issue here. He said she was "Team WCE" and quoted her as saying: "no more porn for you."
Awesome! Not that he may have a porn/sex addiction, but that there is someone else on your side at least acknowledging it. I can only imagine how satisfying it must be to have your thoughts and feelings validated by a professional! I know when my IC confirmed my suspicions re: my XH's masturbation addiction as well as his possible personality disorders, I felt a huge wave of relief followed by the impulse to scream, "I knew I wasn't crazy!"
And of course it has to feel great that Mr. WCE followed through with his promise, and then was also honest with you about what the IC said. He could have very easily tried to hide what she said from you, but he owned it, and that is incredibly encouraging!
So, what I have been seeing as his repeated inability to keep a promise, he has been seeing more as...gradual progress. I told him that his "point of view" on this indicated, if not denial, at the very least a lack of fearless accountability on his part. To which he reluctantly conceded.
There's nothing wrong with gradual progress, although yes, it does hurt you each time he slips. Only you can decide how many slips is too many.
Remember that it is hard for any addict when they first start hearing this: although there are many people in the world who can indulge in their substance of choice in a healthy way, they themselves might not be able to do so anymore. Who knows, there's no definitive diagnosis yet, this may change, but it doesn't hurt to educate yourself on how people typically react when dealing with a diagnosis like this. Google 5 stages of addiction recovery. What you’ve learned while in recovery from infidelity about the 5 stages of grief also likely applies to him as well. It’s pretty common to cycle through them whenever you lose something important in your life.
Recovery gets really sticky for you as the partner, because you have to 1) acknowledge that relapses will most likely happen, 2) try to be understanding and compassionate when they do, and 3) most importantly, also be steadfast in holding to your boundaries no matter what. The hard part is that because you are trying to be understanding and compassionate, it makes you feel like you shouldn’t hold them to the boundaries. It’s a total mindf*&%#. You start thinking “oh, if I just let it slide they’ll see how nice I’m being and then they won’t do it again because of how understanding I was”.
But having compassion and understanding is not the same as being a doormat. Weak boundaries never do anything except make you feel like crap, because the person doesn’t change, and so the hurtful behavior keeps on going. And weak boundaries aren’t just rugsweeping or pretending there isn’t a problem so not setting any boundaries in the first place - it can also mean setting really strict boundaries and then not following through with them, like "I will divorce you if you ever look at porn again!"
Divorce is obviously something you can choose, especially if he shows no progress in changing in a way that is meaningful to you and your marriage. But if you aren’t ready and willing to file papers the second you see a slip up, then do not set that as one of your boundaries! That's why I feel like ultimatums like this rarely work - setting something this big as a punishment for slipping up and checking out some nudes while he is learning to abstain might be setting yourself up for failure. Not because the act isn't hurtful and a betrayal of trust - it is! - but simply because you haven't reached the point where you would actually enforce that yet.
I’m sure you get the gist of it, as these same types of rules apply to boundary setting with any other wayward spouse. It just almost never happens that the spouse truly leaves once the addict has relapsed, then, because there aren't any other boundaries in place to hold them accountable, the addict suffers no consequences, and therefore learns no lessons about their behavior, so they are doomed to repeat it. Ask me how I know :/ The best case scenario is to hold him accountable to your boundaries when he crosses them, but without aggressively shaming him. IMHO, and I believe it’s a pretty common thought amongst the SA community, many sex addictions are often a shame/abandonment issue, not a sex issue.
I know it sounds like cow-towing to his needs. You are not. But I also personally feel that the only way that anything ever got any better was when I was compassionate, not angry. People tend to hear you less when you scream than when you just stay strong and confident in maintaining your boundaries.
If divorce is your boundary, that’s totally cool, set it. But maybe talk to your own IC about how to define what specifically would make you file for divorce (a specific timeline with recovery goals he needs to hit or you will file?), as well as defining smaller, but still appropriate consequences for the slip ups/relapses as he is working his way out of addiction. Again, S-anon would be super helpful for you as you navigate all of this.
Just remember, S-Anon is for you to learn how to control your own behavior and reactions, it is not to help treat your spouse. His behavior is all on him - he also needs to find ways to hold himself accountable when he relapses.
I have a friend who works in behavioral psychology, and she has always told me that whether you are trying to learn a new habit, or unlearn a bad one, positive reinforcement is the best way to go. Like, “if I go one week without porn, I get to ______." And then the rewards get bigger the longer he goes, so for 2 weeks it would be even better, and for a month even better than that. They've done a lot of studies on how this type of behavior modification works well with children. The general consensus re: sex addicts is that they have a lot of FOO issues, often early childhood sexual assault or molestation, that leaves them emotionally stunted and immature like a child would be. So I guess going back to basics and having them relearn boundaries like a child would isn’t a bad thing.
Maybe your husband could come up with a list of positive reinforcements that would work for him - on the low end, a new shirt he’s been eyeing, or a meal at his favorite restaurant, on the high end, a golf trip? Only he will know what will work for him, and of course you’ll have to help with the list on the back end to make sure you are comfortable with all of the rewards he sets out. What if one of the rewards was an out of town trip, but his As all happened out of town? I’m sure you would want to have veto power over something like that.
The main thing is that your partner is still your equal, so you want to do anything you can to avoid a role of authority over him - I unfortunately fell into the mom/authority figure trap on many occasions, and found that the dynamic where he was looking for constant validation from me made me resent him. I found myself thinking “you seriously want a gold f%$^ing star for managing to be a normal human and not taking my underwear?!” My advice is to avoid being the one to dole out the reward, instead it should be something he gives himself for a job well done. That way he starts to see that any punishment or reward is entirely in his own hands. Each time he relapses it restarts the clock, so he is back to square 1.
Your own IC might have a different viewpoint on this, or maybe your MC would have some suggestions. I just think that him rewarding himself is more in line with the idea that each person should be accountable for their own actions, which is generally what a 12 step program for any addiction is about. Maybe Mr. WCE can make a list of what he thinks would be good rewards for himself moving forward, then ask his IC to weigh in with some suggestions?
It might help him to make a list of activities he enjoys that he can do whenever the urge strikes him, as a way to redirect his energy BEFORE a relapse even happens. It should be something that he gets genuine happiness out of, as the pleasure reward center in his brain will positively reinforce the behavior if he actually enjoys doing it. The same biological processes that positively reinforced porn in his brain can be used to redirect his focus towards different activities instead! Now he can use dopamine to his advantage!
I also strongly recommend AGAINST making sex with you one of his rewards, even if he feels this would be a great motivator. In my experience, it sets you up for a strange sexual relationship down the line. You start viewing sex as something he has to earn, and he starts viewing it as something you are withholding from him upon completion of some task that is related to porn/masturbation. It makes it feel very transactional, and also in a twisted way, still directly related to his porn/masturbation use, or lack thereof. When we did this initially, it ended up where I no longer felt desired for me, I felt like my body was a commodity he had earned, and he felt like he couldn’t live up to my standards, and so the shame/self esteem spiral began where I was the “mean mommy” telling him he was doing bad things or giving him treats for good things. IMO it's better if your sex life exists outside of his relationship with porn/masturbation as he continues to get a handle on it. But again, consult your own ICs, see if they can weigh in on what they think will be best for each of you.
Nevertheless, there is a degree to which I take his point. From his perspective, he has been increasingly getting a handle on self-control around porn, just as he has increasingly gotten a handle on himself in other areas. All part of the growth process.
And on reflection, part of me thinks this may actually be exactly what is happening. That getting a handle on an urge or impulse that you've just been freely indulging for years and years isn't going to happen overnight, even if you are not "addicted" to it. It sounds reasonable, at least.
And certainly gels with what lots of guys here seem to be saying about how hard it would be for most guys to give up porn altogether. Are most guys addicted to porn?
Yes, 100%. It is definitely a growth process, and true change cannot be expected overnight. Habits are easy to form and hard to break, especially ones that have gone on for years. The fact that he WANTS to change is the most important thing.
So I wouldn't say that most men are porn addicts per se, as addiction suggests some level of compulsion, and men don't all necessarily have compulsive behavior surrounding porn. Rather, most are able to use it when they want to as a means to an end. But to varying degrees it’s pretty obvious that porn is very much a part of mens sexual education and identity.
You also can't discount the fact that there is a certain level of "guaranteed" satisfaction when it comes to masturbation. They have to "work" to have sex with a woman. Masturbation requires very little work on the front end for the dopamine reward of an orgasm, and because porn is so linked to male masturbation, they get bundled together in the same instant gratification package. Porn doesn't judge them, it doesn't have its own wants or needs that get in the way, it doesn't get frustrated when they can't stay hard, or when it's taking them a while to finish, it doesn't require consent - it's readily available, and it serves its purpose, which is to get them off.
That is at the core of what I think the male posters have been getting at here - it would be incredibly hard to get rid of porn altogether because it is such an ingrained part of their masturbatory experience, and therefore their sexuality.
However, I have to say the key word there is hard, not impossible. Again, the want vs. need argument comes into play. And then of course the acknowledgement that porn is not necessarily a healthy supplement to masturbation, or at the very least may be considered unhealthy for some people.
When questioned about his doubts about whether the issue is a "true" addiction, he indicated that during the infidelity period (which was years) he developed the habit of taking down and/or ignoring successive sexual boundaries. He feels that he has been gradually re-strengthening his self-control muscles, but that it has been a gradual process for him.
So that's where treatment of porn addiction as a “true” addiction can get dicey - is it truly an addiction you must abstain from in its entirety, like alcohol or drugs, or are there aspects of it that can be brought back in to your sexual experience after some work on your “self-control muscles”? His taking down/ignoring successive sexual boundaries is what people would call "chasing the high" - not being able to get the same high as before because of overuse leading to desensitization, so developing more intense habits to "chase" that initial high. That sounds like what happens with any other "true" addiction. There is this idea most addicts have when they are first in recovery - if I slowly built up to this, wouldn't it make sense that I could work my way out of it? Well with most "traditional" substance addictions, people would say no, abstinence forever is the only way to go.
It's possible that research could be done over the years to show that neuroplasticity - the ability for your brains "wiring" to change over time with the reduction, elimination or introduction of different stimuli along with rewards or consequences - could be used to "train" more traditional addicts like alcoholics or drug addicts to react in a more appropriate way to the use of the substance they are addicted to. There are those who believe in "moderation management" for those whose brain chemistry hasn't been permanently altered by the addiction, but rather are "problem drinkers" who have issues with their emotions. However the downsides to use of these substances - like overdosing, dying of alcohol poisoning, liver cirrhosis or kidney failure, killing someone in a drunk driving accident, getting your unborn baby hooked on drugs while pregnant, and many, many others - are so huge, that once they've observed addictive behavior towards a substance, many people in recovery aren’t willing to take that risk. It's easier to just call it quits altogether than to play the risky game of will they or won't they.
In a way, those who are addicted to something like alcohol, or heroin, or pills etc. have it "easier." In that the thing they are addicted to is not actually necessary for them to live their life. If they never drink, or shoot up, or pop pills again, they won't die or suffer any grave harm from it. They might want to use it, and they might be sad that they cannot because using it makes them feel good in some way, but other than that, one would argue that their life will not be any worse off if they quit. Therefore they can just avoid that substance altogether, making their recovery "easier."
For those with food-related or sex-related addictions, it gets much more complicated. There is some aspect of sex as a "substance" that is normal and, most would say, necessary in life and marriage. Most people would agree that a sexless marriage is not their goal. So the person might have compulsions and addictions when it comes to certain behaviors surrounding sex/sexuality, like masturbation or porn, but they still want to have sex with their partner in a healthy way.
Somebody who is anorexic or bulimic has a completely messed up relationship with food, but they still have to eat in order to survive. Therefore they have to redefine their relationship with food. They might have certain types of foods they must avoid, times of day, amounts etc. But food cannot just be cut out of their lives completely.
In the same way, a sex addict must redefine their relationship with sex to get to a healthy place rather than an unhealthy one. Masturbation with porn might be a no-no, while masturbation without porn might be fine. Or, they might find that masturbation is just too tempting for them, and they can't help but allow it to lead to porn as well, so then masturbation might have to stop entirely. But it's unlikely anyone would ever say that sex with their wife should be entirely off the table. So sex is still in their life in some capacity, it can't just be cut out completely.
Sex addiction is one of those strange things that might take awhile to figure out - is it something they can successfully manage with limited forms of contact (i.e. "just photos" or "anything as long as its not live cams" or some other stipulation), or do they need to remain abstinent permanently? After going through it with my X, I’m now firmly in the mindset of “get rid of it for good.” For me the "it" was porn, and the use of underwear. Who knows, his relationship with masturbation was particularly aggressive, we might have eventually had to cut out masturbation altogether. But then again, his case was also completely untreated since he refused to seek professional help, so who is to say what someone more qualified than me would have recommended for him?
I do know that Sexaholics Anonymous is highly recommended when dealing with this particular issue. There are a couple of other SA support groups, though from my understanding they allow the addict to define their own version of sobriety. SA’s is a strict policy where they can only engage in sexual acts with a monogamous, committed partner, so porn and masturbation are also completely off the table.
I’m sure the ladies over in the SA forum would have something far different to say about this, but I personally had a really hard time with the idea of him not masturbating ever again. For many reasons. First, it felt like a bodily autonomy boundary that we were crossing - yes, if he decided not to, that was fine, but it felt like a really strange limit for me to set for R. Secondly, I also knew he had a high sex drive, and I felt like taking masturbation away meant that I would have to fulfill all of his sexual needs, and I didn’t feel capable of doing that. But then again, I don’t think it’s healthy to view someone else’s sexual desires as something you have to fulfill for them, it’s something you mutually agree to engage in together. And also, my marriage to an SA ended up not working in the long run, so it’s possible everything I’m saying is bulls%&!. But I also feel that I came out the other side, and don’t have any regrets with setting the boundaries that I did. I chose NOT to tell him what he could do with his body, only that what he did with his body could not negatively affect ME. And I still feel strongly that maintaining bodily autonomy standards was the best way I could have personally handled it, because it’s what I believe in, and to not do that would have been a betrayal of my own morals.
Either way, whether your husband’s case is classified as an addiction, or merely a "bad habit" that needs some adjustment, there is a lot to consider, and it will take time to truly suss that out. For Mr. WCE, this is something he’ll have to explore with his IC. Maybe he stays porn abstinent. Maybe certain things get reintroduced over time. He’s still in the discovery phase, so you won’t know until you know.
I feel like the only real way to find out if things can be reintroduced would be to treat it like an elimination diet to figure out food allergies- first, you have to go completely cold turkey, then slowly reintroduce different “foods” (types of porn or behaviors) one at a time until you figure out what the problem is.
But IMO the question your husband has to ask himself is this - is it worth it to try and find out if porn, or even certain types of porn, can be reintroduced to his masturbation routine, knowing the risks? Meaning, knowing that porn/masturbation has also been a contributing factor in his As, and knowing that what you deem an "acceptable" form of porn - like "just pictures" - could trigger him and lead to his use of "unacceptable" forms of porn - like live cam interaction - is it worth the risk of trying to see if the "acceptable" uses can be reintroduced? Or is it better to cut his losses and find a way to redirect these feelings towards another outlet?
I feel like it all has to be treated delicately, and it is a very “to each his own” situation. Like the hypothetical scenario one poster brought up about a woman not being allowed to use a vibrator because it had to do with her A - she cannot climax without a vibrator, and therefore if she wants to R is doomed to a life without orgasms. I think if she truly could not orgasm without it, then that would be an unfair thing to ask of her. But I would also ask that she try to figure out a way that she can climax without it first, before just giving in to her using a vibrator.
Are there things she can do to rewire the arousal part of her brain so that she can in fact orgasm without a vibrator? Like, can she work on her ability to fantasize better? Does it help if she sets the mood a little bit for herself with candles, or some nice new underwear? Are there certain times of day that she can learn are better for her? Certain music? I know I had a hard time orgasming if I felt stressed, it took a lot longer, so figuring out ways to calm my stress levels was always important - I’m sure many women could identify with that. There would be a lot of things to explore before just throwing up your hands and saying “I absolutely cannot climax without a vibrator, therefore your feelings about vibrators because of my A are invalid.”
Same thing with men and porn - does porn make masturbation easier? In many instances, yes. Is it necessary? Maybe, maybe not. But if you don’t do the work to try to masturbate without it, you’ll never know. And that’s not just like, oh, I tried without it once or twice and it didn’t work, so I can use porn now, right? I’m talking seeing a sex therapist, seeing IC, working on his own ability to fantasize rather than use porn - really trying to remain abstinent and seeing where it takes him.
Is there anything obvious that I am not seeing, or watching for?
Is there anything I should be watching for in the coming weeks/months?
As Notthevictem pointed out, the initiative has to come from him. Luckily, it seems like that has already happened. That doesn't mean that you cannot support him in keeping the momentum going once he's started, but the drive really needs to come from him, and in that regard, you are already one step ahead.
Just please, please, stay very aware. Once I thought we had "moved past it" - partially because I felt good that he had made all of these changes for me - I rugswept and allowed him to feed me bullshit excuses when all of the other issues would come up. If I'm being honest, I really wanted that part of our relationship to be "over." So even though some of the behaviors came back, I told myself it wasn't as bad as before, and I didn't enforce my boundaries. Big mistake.
He really needed to figure out 1) why he had these impulses in the first place, 2) why he would eventually act on them despite the negative consequences, and most importantly, 3) why he felt compelled to lie about them afterwards. He really needed to find out those why's for himself, and never did. Instead he placed blame. He resented me for taking away one of his highs by not buying lacy underwear anymore, and he was too ashamed to keep buying more of his own, so he developed new perverse habits. And as any good addict does, he learned to hide the new behaviors to protect the addiction, so I did not find out about most of these until after DDay.
So your husband is in IC which is awesome, that means he is addressing his why's. But if he stopped going to IC I would be super concerned.
Also, I wanted so badly to be a trusting wife that I did not even think to check phone records, or look into possible drug abuse. I also wanted so badly for all of this to be behind us, so I rugswept the things I did find out about, which means I didn’t put together the pattern of escalation until it was too late. It wasn't until after the affair that I put all of the puzzle pieces together to discover his meth addiction, as well as the masturbation/porn addiction that had never gone away, and then had escalated to calling escorts, and from what I can tell NSA meet ups from fetish sites. So please keep your "spidey senses" honed, to protect yourself.
I must emphasize that even though my marriage was not ultimately successful, I do 100% think that recovery is possible - a long road, sure, but still possible. I tell you all of my story as a cautionary tale. As a warning against rug sweeping and rewriting boundaries for him, not for yourself. As well as advocating for LOTS and LOTS of therapy. Also, SA and S-Anon! We never went to therapy for this, or to any SA or S-Anon meetings, and I do think things would have been much different had we tried either of those things.
In talking with my own IC, she emphasized to me that she feels many of the steps I took were the right ones, he just did not have the desire, or even possibly the capacity, to deal with it in a meaningful way. And although I definitely made some mistakes along the way, I also learned a lot through the process. Please know that if sex addiction is something he cannot ultimately overcome, it has nothing to do with any boundaries you did or did not set.
I have to say that Mr. WCE sounds like he is in a FAR better place than my husband ever was. He seems to have owned it so far, and I truly hope he continues to do so! Moreover, you have the support of a community that has been there and done that. It is a long and difficult road, but I have to believe that people have the ability to change, if they choose to. I don't think I would be able to live happily if I didn't believe that.
Believe it or not, this is WAYYYYY shorter than the original 
I hope you got something from it.
I'm not the "thoughts and prayers" type. But if I was, I'd be sending them your way.
From your responses to other threads, I can see you are living up to your tagline: "There is nothing stronger than a broken woman who has rebuilt herself." -Hannah Gadsby
Keep it up!
*Pre-emptive note for the dudes who endeavored to read this novel of a post and got offended that I said her husband may never be able to use porn again*
I'm not telling you not to use porn if you want to! I'm simply giving advice from one SA spouse to another. But if you find yourself getting triggered by this post and feel the need to vehemently defend your stance on porn, I would suggest you dig deep and figure out what about it is so triggering to you. You might be surprised by the answer.
