SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I didn't say she doesn't have the hots for you. I said she wants to be with you for reasons other than sex.

Assuming she is attracted to me, the second necessary thing is that she's someone for whom our sex life is a priority that's pretty high up on her list like it is for me. I don't want to be with someone who doesn't think it's that important and who needs this whole big checklist of other stuff to be taken care of first. If she has to have had a really good night's sleep, and a totally stress-free day, and a spotless house, and all the errands taken care of, and the kids squared away and yadda yadda before sex becomes something she's open to, I'm not interested. I'm also not interested in being the one who has to do all or most of the initiating.

I guess I have reached my limit on "Healing has to come from inside" or "BS has to heal the BS" mantra of SI. Whether it is my professional perspective or just being in a pissy mood today - CAN WE STOP SAYING THAT?

What alternative is on offer? What doc can remove infidelity from one's soul?

The very words of the rant prove that the BS has to heal himself.

The BS has to process his own pain. If therapy is on the table, the BS has to get himself into therapy. The BS has to face his own demons and make his own changes through/with/in therapy.

No one but the BS can do that work.

So how is it fitting to stop saying 'the BS heals the BS'?

ETA: The proposition 'BS heals BS' said to me that I could get myself out of the despair I felt in the early days with or without my W. My healing and my return to a life I wanted to live were within my own power, just as my decision to ask for help was mine and mine alone to make.

[This message edited by sisoon at 9:45 PM, March 17th (Sunday)]

Do you believe women cheat on men for better sex/bc they’re not sexually attracted to their man? (Not saying it’s never true fyi. Just asking.)

In my personal experiences, I've seen women cheat when they weren't feeling sexually fulfilled. Even though the guys they were with thought otherwise and had no clue.

At my work recently, I overheard two females talking about a breakup between two co workers bc he caught her cheating. They were saying that he should forgive her and take her back bc he should understand that she just wanted wild animal sex from the other, but she LOVED her bf.

I interjected and an hour and a half later, we were still debating.

At my work recently, I overheard two females talking about a breakup between two co workers bc he caught her cheating. They were saying that he should forgive her and take her back bc he should understand that she just wanted wild animal sex from the other, but she LOVED her bf.

The reality of infidelity is it takes support. (Usually a shitload of support.) It takes either a remorseful and empathetic wayward or excising the cheating wayward from your life. (If either of those were easy, we sure would not have so many members.) It often takes therapy, usually lots of therapy. THEN, the BS has a fighting chance to "heal themselves."

Just as I cannot cure cancer in any of my patients (they have to fight), the reality is they usually don't stand much of chance unless we can get it out of them first.

I agree with your rant. And while the saying of "you heal yourself" is true, it's also incredibly reductive and totally misses the point of what successful R looks like, IMHO. The analogy I use is my wife picked up a gun and shot me (the A). Thankfully, she's a trauma surgeon, so, now, as I lay bleeding, she and I both have a choice. This woman just shot me, should I call 911 and go to the emergency room (get a D)? But this woman is also an excellent trauma surgeon, should I trust her to try to fix the wound (try to R)? Yes, in the end, I have to make the decision and yes, in the end, I'm the one who's going to "heal myself". My wife, no matter how good a surgeon, can only do so much, I have to do the rest. But someone needs to get that bullet out, either her or someone else, I can't dig it out myself.

Rather, the relationship value is tied to sex. From my point of view I have several buddies that are better conversationalists than my wife, best friends that we do drop everything to be there for. Take most of the things that you mentioned women say they value from a relationship and I can get those anywhere.

Exactly, the "other things" that were lost during the A? I can get them anywhere; I need someone to tell me I'm awesome, I have 10 guys I can call right now and get that validation. Need someone to hear a sob story, got a rolex for that too. Or to confess something awful, or to have a shoulder to cry on.. Pretty much any need I have can be fulfilled outside the marriage with friends or money. Except sex. That's the one thing that's off limits, I can not get that anywhere else.

Which is why the physical component of the affair hurt so bad and the emotional one didn't. Course I'm speaking for myself here.

Nope, you're speaking for me too. Exactly how I feel.

And a little aside here, because I know some people are going to read this and think "you only want your W for sex", which is patently NOT true. It's the one thing that is UNIQUE to my wife, however, I get a lot of other things from her too. It's just that those other things are easily outsourced to others, I don't have a lot of need for emotional closeness, but, if I did, I have plenty of people I can lean on for that. Friendship, someone to do things with, all easily outsourced to others. But not sex.

I have friends and family with whom I can have great conversation, laugh with, look to for emotional support go out and do fun things with, etc. Romance and sex are the things that set intimate relationships and marriages apart from other kinds. If I'm in a committed relationship with a woman, I'm choosing to forego all other opportunities for sex. Why would I ever make that choice with a woman who isn't attracted to me and doesn't really care much for having sex (and lots of it) with me?

Quoting just because I think this poster might have said it better, but.. Exactly this.

I can't share my deepest, darkest innermost anythings with anyone.

The really deep/dark stuff, I can't share it with "anyone" either. That's what a psychologist is for! I don't share that stuff with my W either, shoot, you guys here know more of it than she does in a lot of "deep/dark" areas.

What alternative is on offer? What doc can remove infidelity from one's soul?

Nobody can remove an A, that's true. But that only alternatives aren't "your on your own, good luck" and "I can Vulcan mind meld it away". There's a middle ground, which is, in the context of this discussion, "I'm going to make you realize you were and always will be my number 1". And that can take a million different forms, most of which we all agree with; telling the truth, NC with the AP, a post nup, spending more time with your H/W, buying him/her things, doing more for him/her.. Speaking your BS's love language, in short, better than you used to. It's only sex where this goes off the rails and people disagree. I'm pretty sure if a poster came on here and said "My WH keeps talking to the AP" most of (perhaps all) wouldn't give the "you heal you" advice. We'd say "you need to take steps to D". And maybe that's the answer that none of us will say here. If your WS doesn't show you that your "Plan A", well.. You need to D. I think that may be the answer, as much as it pains me personally to admit, it seems like that's the only option.

They were saying that he should forgive her and take her back bc he should understand that she just wanted wild animal sex from the other, but she LOVED her bf.

There are literally 1000's of stories like this on anonymous sites out there. Some are fake. All are not, I'd bet my life.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 6:57 PM, March 17th (Sunday)]

I realized that I left something out of my last post. I was not initially attracted to my fCH. He is the total opposite of the kind of guys I was instantly hot for. I decided to give him a chance because he was so different. Those other guys were not working out for me. It was his personality that won me over.

For the most part, men become infinitely more attractive or unattractive based on their words and behavior. I've met some amazing looking men who opened their mouths and became the ugliest things I have ever seen. I've also met average looking men who were female magnets because of their behavior. My fCH becomes infinitely more attractive to me when he does house/repair work.

Making sex a priority is not an issue, imo. Most adult, intimate relationships include sex. It's part of what makes the relationship intimate. But, it's not the only thing that can make a relationship intimate. And, there are other reasons than sex to want to be married to someone.

I know that BHs really struggle with the A sex. But, none of that has to do with your worth. You didn't do anything wrong that caused your CW to have sex with OM. I'm trying to give the perspective of a woman so that maybe you can start to see that the sex probably wasn't that important to your CW. I'm thinking maybe I'm not helping.

So how is it fitting to stop saying 'the BS heals the BS'?

Divorced guy here. WW left me for another man. Needless to say I got zero healing from my WS.

In my case, I do have a lot of difficulties from an essentially no remorse situation. It's quite wrenching to not be able to communicate at all on that level with someone you once loved and seemingly shared experiences, feelings with.

I can't imagine doing R or staying in a marriage where the WS was doing nothing to heal the BS. I am not the only one who has gone through that. That's why people push back on that statement.

Exactly, the "other things" that were lost during the A? I can get them anywhere; I need someone to tell me I'm awesome, I have 10 guys I can call right now and get that validation. Need someone to hear a sob story, got a rolex for that too. Or to confess something awful, or to have a shoulder to cry on.. Pretty much any need I have can be fulfilled outside the marriage with friends or money. Except sex. That's the one thing that's off limits, I can not get that anywhere else.

You could get the sex elsewhere, too. You know that. You got it before your marriage. From what you have said, I'm not sure your WW was even the best you've ever had. You had it before M, I'm guessing you could get it even easier now provided you'd date "age appropriate."

But you're in R. I'm guessing it's because you either still love WW, or hate what D would do to you? Or something else?

My therapy? I kicked her out and said no the 6 or 7 times she begged and cried to come back.

RIO, maybe you should try being more open and emotionally honest with your CW about things other than sex. I think you are missing out on a huge amount of intimacy you could have with her.

Do you not believe in EAs? They happen and are just as devastating as PAs. My fCH had both. Both aspects destroyed me.

I said somewhere (can't keep track of threads) that it's absolutely ok for a BP to make any demands they want for R. However, they need to be ready to leave if those demands are not met

So, I disagree with your example of a BW saying her CH is still talking with the OW and a CW who won't do certain sex acts with BH that they did with OM.

If anal is one of your requirements for R because she did it with the OM and you've asked her for it in the past (and it's not for the purpose of degrading or humiliating her), then demand it. If she doesn't offer it, D.

I know that BHs really struggle with the A sex. But, none of that has to do with your worth. You didn't do anything wrong that caused your CW to have sex with OM. I'm trying to give the perspective of a woman so that maybe you can start to see that the sex probably wasn't that important to your CW. I'm thinking maybe I'm not helping.

The sex the WW had is important to the BH. Whether the sex was important to the WW is not all that relevant. Someone shoots me, I'm lying on the ground, fighting for life, not going to help me a lot if the perp was just cleaning their gun, taking target practice somewhere unsafe, mistook me for someone else, etc. Maybe it would make me feel worse. That someone is careless, doesn't care might be worse than someone who hates me. Hate I have a chance to fix. Carelessness, indifference, those may actually be more hurtful.

coco -

You're one of the very few BWs on here that think any form of sex as a demand for R isn't almost the same as rape.

IMHO the issue isn’t the quality of sex. I didn’t leave my fiancé because the OM was better endowed or that she seemed to enjoy it more than with me. (Since I walked in on them I have a pretty good idea on the answer on both issues…). Just like I wouldn’t have stayed with her if she had given me a 10 and the OM an 8.

The real issue is simply that she had sex with another man.

Way before she had some basis for comparison the REAL issue had taken place: HER DECISSION TO CHEAT.

In my case it was quite simple: Since we weren’t married yet and had relatively few combined assets I could technically easily walk. Had we been married, with kids… my decision might have been different.

But had I decided to try reconciliation I hope I would have done TRUE reconciliation.

Like the instance mentioned above with the vanilla sex? That’s not true reconciliation. Part of R is dealing with ALL the issues in a marriage, sex included. Reconciliation isn’t about recovering from the affair per se. It’s about trying to create the BEST marriage possible despite the affair. Of course, a large part of that work deals with the affair, but it goes so much further. I think this misunderstanding on what true R represents is so widespread that some posters have to go to other sites to vent about the wuzzes that think R is a possibility. Some of them maybe because of the misery of their unreconciled marriages…

It's a lot like someone dealing with alcoholism. Any alcoholic will tell you that getting sober is easy – it’s staying sober that’s hard. That’s why successful alcoholics do constant AA and 12-step work (or comparable) to REMAIN sober. The others are referred to as dry-drunks. They work on improvement – just like a reconciled marriage is constantly working at improvement. A marriage where dealing with infidelity simply ends with the affair and then trying to live with the big pink infidelity-elephant in the room will never be a good marriage.

Sex? Technically the best sex I have had was not with my wife. Emotionally nothing beats sex with my wife. Don’t even remember the name of the former but think constantly about the later.

So, if someone tells you that they love you and want to be with because of reasons other than sex, which most women focus on, you are not interested? Sex is really the only important thing to you in a M?

At 25 years married, sex though enjoyable, was not the most important thing to me. We had a family, great plans, enjoyed spending time with each other, and were planning a great future for my pending retirement.

I would be shocked that in any healthy long term marriage, where sex is still the most important thing. Important sure. Most important I don’t think so

Of course when one of the partners has an affair that all goes out the window. Number one, the marriage isn’t healthy anymore, and the safety of having a long term partner is shattered. At that point it did become the most important thing. It was no longer something that was pure and enjoyable. It was tainted by thoughts of what she did with him. No amount of her telling me how much better it was with me was going to hold water. What else was she going to say?

How many times were you ever told that sex with you sucked, or how many times did you tell someone else.

I recently broke up with an amazing woman. Age appropriate, financially secure so she wasn’t using me as an ATM, and drop dead gorgeous. But the sex with her sucked. Was I honest about why I was breaking up? NFW. Took the cowards way out and said I didn’t think I was in the right place for a serious relationship. But what are the choices? Just like a WS telling their spouse that their AP rocked their world. Not if you want to stay married.

I guess my point is in the beginning sex is critical, but in a deeper relationship other things become equally important.

RIO, maybe you should try being more open and emotionally honest with your CW about things other than sex. I think you are missing out on a huge amount of intimacy you could have with her.

I've thought about it. And I always share the things I think she'll like, I just hold back those that I know will hurt her or she won't like. I share them with other people (my friends) instead or just keep them to myself entirely.

Do you not believe in EAs? They happen and are just as devastating as PAs. My fCH had both. Both aspects destroyed me.

That's a funny question, and it's one of those "depends on what the definition of "is" is" answers. Do I think that EAs happen and are terribly destructive? Yes, I do. Do I think that EA's are a "thing" unto themselves? No, I do not. An EA is just a stop on the path to a PA, a stop that a lot of people would skip if it were socially acceptable to do so (and some people do it anyway, the "Emotionless infidelity" thread being a good example). So, putting it another way, I don't think EA's exist because they are very often make believe to get to the heart of the matter, the PA. I know men who've had A's, and I've seen the "EA component" of the A in plain sight before. The "I lovoovvee you" text messages, the endless calls, all of it. Except that none of it was real, it was all just "say whatever it takes" to get to what they were really after (the PA). So, yes, the "EA part" really happened for them, but it was all make believe, none of it was real. What to make of it? I really don't know. I know that "make believe" kills some people, and destroys marriages, so I see it's power. But, this is the one place where I with a BW could be a bird on my shoulder when talking with some of my cheating friends. I have a feeling you'd care a LOT less about the EA if you heard their "real feelings" towards the APs. Because they are not at all like the endless TXTs that many have the displeasure to find after d-day, not even close.

Maybe it would make me feel worse. That someone is careless, doesn't care might be worse than someone who hates me. Hate I have a chance to fix. Carelessness, indifference, those may actually be more hurtful.

I tend to agree with you. It would be far easier to understand it my W's reason for the A was "I just wanted to get f**ked". OK, I can work with this, because it makes sense. Now, I'm not saying that's a "good answer" but, it rings true. That's what you wanted, that's what you got, and that's what affairs are known to be "good at". Logically consistent, we just need to figure out why you thought that was OK and find out if there's a workable solution. But what I got instead was the person shooting into occupied houses to see what happens. I didn't want to kill anyone (have sex). Well, what did you expect was going to happen when you unloaded a magazine into a house?!? It's like I'm not sure if the first step here is mental health professionals because it feels like my W had a break from reality. Having an A for sex is reality, it's just not a upstanding/good thing to do. Like pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger, it's a bad idea, but, reality tells us what happens next. But if the person who was holding the gun then says "I didn't realize it would kill them" well.. Then what?? It was a 9mm and you shot them in the face, what did you think was going to happen? And then the analysis starts, is this person lying? Is he/she mentally deranged or slow? Was he/she drunk or under the influence? How could someone not realize what was going to happen when you took those actions? It's like cause/effect has left the building, and, honestly, I don't know how to operate with people like that.

Making sex a priority is not an issue, imo. Most adult, intimate relationships include sex. It's part of what makes the relationship intimate.

Most do, but things like frequency, enthusiasm, and adventurousness are a major part of whether or not the sex in the relationship is something that enhances intimacy or detracts from it. And attraction is essential to making sure those things are there.

But, it's not the only thing that can make a relationship intimate.

Sure, but that's akin to saying that sunlight isn't the only thing that makes a plant grow. It may be true, but it doesn't matter how much you water a plant or what kind of soil it's in if you keep it in a dark room. It's going to wither and die. Same goes for relationships. All the cuddles and gifts and sweet words and weekend getaways you could ever want can't replace sex.

And, there are other reasons than sex to want to be married to someone.

I don't think anyone has said or implied that sex is the only thing that matters. Many have said, however, that it's a very important part of the relationship. And as far as affairs are concerned, it's absolutely essential that any WW who wants to R brings her A+ game when it comes to sex and keep bringing that A+ game for the rest of her life, otherwise she's wasting her time. The trouble is, a WW who isn't all that attracted to her BH, or who isn't as attracted to him as she was to her AP, is going to struggle and probably fail at that task and hurt her BH even more than she did in the first place.

[This message edited by firenze at 7:47 PM, March 17th (Sunday)]

I guess my point is in the beginning sex is critical, but in a deeper relationship other things become equally important.

Let me change this a tiny bit, because I agree with most everything you said, but I think I can make this fit me better. Sex isn't the most important thing UNTIL you're not having it (or it sucks, or there's all kind of "no's", etc). Then it quickly elevates to the only thing that matters.

Let me tell you, I know a lot of married men. And there's really only 2 complaints about their wives that get thrown around. One is sex, the other is their weight. I know, that's not going to be at all popular, but it's true. It's never "man, I wish she'd get a better job" or "I wish she'd clean the house more" or even "I wish she'd spend more time with the kids". Nope, it's almost always "I wish she wanted to sleep with me" and very occasionally "I wish she lost the baby weight".

Is sex the only thing? Nope, not by a long shot. But when it's the missing thing, it becomes the only thing. I know a guy who's wife NEVER cooks. Ever. Eats out ever single meal and he hates wasting money and also hates eating out. You know what he complains about? Sex. Because who gives a crap about your food options when you're dying to be intimate with your wife? I know I don't.

I kind of see it like air. You breathe it in and never really think about it very much. But, if you take it away, let me tell you, you'll think about NOTHING else. All your other complaints in the world will go away, everything else you thought you really wanted, all of it fades away the moment you feel the need to breathe in and your underwater. If you have plenty of it, yes, there might be a great smell that you notice, but it's not the end all be all, it's not going to make you happy to wake up and think "Yeah! I can breathe.". But the moment it goes away, well, nothing even comes close to the level of importance and frankly, nothing else matters.

Rideitout, I am curious. You absolutely don't have to answer, but this point has always confused me. If sex is the number one most important indicator to you in how sincere a woman is about her attraction to a man, and you believe it's the only thing a man can't outsource to another person in his life besides his W, and it's so important to you that being turned down for it can ruin an otherwise perfect day... why did you choose to marry your W? If she was clear that there were things you really wanted that she was unwilling to give, why not keep shopping for someone who had the same sexual priorities, and rely on that outsourcing for the rest? You dismiss intangible emotions all the time here in favor of concrete actions, but in the most critical decision of your life, you went for the intangible. I get that you'd never do it again, but you say so often that feelings are just words, I'm stymied by why you ever agreed to do it in the first place.

If sex is the number one most important indicator to you in how sincere a woman is about her attraction to a man, and you believe it's the only thing a man can't outsource to another person in his life besides his W, and it's so important to you that being turned down for it can ruin an otherwise perfect day... why did you choose to marry your W?

Because I love her. It's really that simple, and I'll try to explain more below, but that's the answer to this question. I loved her IN SPITE of the sex, which is perhaps the strongest statement that you'll ever get from me.

You dismiss intangible emotions all the time here in favor of concrete actions, but in the most critical decision of your life, you went for the intangible.

I don't dismiss personal emotions, I dismiss emotions portrayed by other people. I didn't marry my W because she said she loved me, I married her because I loved her. She had no ability to "lie to me" because it was me who was building the story. The dismissal that I do of emotions is when they are used to spur another to action. "I love you" from the AP to get in the panties being my personal pet peeve. Because then you're taking action based on another persons emotions, which you can NEVER know for sure. But taking action based on your own emotions, yeah, I do that. But my W could have said "I love you" until she was blue in the face, if she'd said "but I don't want to sleep with you", I'd never believe it and therefore, never let myself love her back. Because I expect people to lie to me about their emotions because it's such a powerful way to get people to take actions counter to their best interests. My job tries to "build a spirit of teamwork" mostly because they want us to emotionally bond to one another so that we become more loyal. Makes sense, but it's also using emotions to work against someones personal best interest. And, frankly, that's almost always what emotions are used for. Try to get people emotionally vested in an outcome to get them to sign a huge deal. Get people emotional about a product to get them to buy more of it. Build an emotional story to make something more desirable. And of course, the typical A lie, "I love you" to get the panties off.

Let me tell you, without question, if I love you, you will never question it. I never need to say the words, you'll just know it because my actions will bear it out. Saying the words can help, but, most of the time, people saying things to you that are emotionally charged are trying to use that statement to elicit a reaction, not to tell you how they really feel or what they really think. And the more emotionally loaded the statement, the more likely it is to have less and less truth in it. The most emotionally loaded things my W ever said to me were all around d-day, and.. You guessed it, they were all lies. Sobbing her eyes out, "I love you so much, I'd never lie to you".. And, of course, this story doesn't need a conclusion because, well.. I think we've all been there.

Striver, I didn't mean to imply that the sex isn't important. I sorry if I minimized your feelings. The sex my fCH had with the OW was important to me, too. She performed a sex act on him that he had told her I didn't do. She obviously did that deliberately. When I thought it was only an EA, I told my therapist that it would have been easier if it had just been sex. Then, I found out they did have sex. It wasn't easier.

However, the feelings he expressed to the OW were just as important. He told her he loved and she had made him happy again. And, as I've said before, the roles were flipped in his A. He was looking for emotional validation. She was looking for sex. The time he spent texting her instead of me is just as important. The money he spent on her instead of his kids is just as important. He wrote her poems.

Do I think he was really in love with her? No. That doesn't lessen the pain of what he shared with her through his words that he did not share with me.

And, this is where I get confused by you, RIO. In one breath, you say your CW's A was only about sex and you are so hurt and angry that she had sex with an OM. Then, in the next breath, you say it would be easier for you if it really had been only about the sex. I assume that means she says it wasn't about the sex. You don't believe her? Have you tried looking at it from her POV instead of yours? I get the feeling that you may be projecting what it would mean to you onto her. I'm not suggesting you do that for her sake. I'm suggesting you do that for your sake because it seems that you are working yourself up into a frenzy being hyper focused on the sex when it may not mean what you think it means, just like I was initially hyper focused on my fCH being in love with someone else.

Golden, like I said, I think it depends on the purpose of the sexual demands. It's not ok to demand something degrading, demeaning, humiliating for that purpose, especially if the CW has never done it. If it's something you've wanted and were denied, but she did it with the AP, and all you want is to enjoy it with her, I think it's ok to say it has to be done. But, also like I said, you have to be prepared for refusal. You obviously should not force her to perform that sexual act with you.