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Huet, I never said that I dress to feel sexy. I certainly don't dress for other women. I dress for comfort. So, please, don't put words in my mouth.

And, no, I did not question what I was wearing after I was raped. I knew that wasn't a factor. I'm sorry you were raped, and i'm sorry you questioned yourself because of it. It had nothing to do with anything you were wearing or anything you said or did.

Zugzwang, I don't understand why you would have such strong emotions about what your niece wears as to be disgusted. However, if your family has an issue, why not talk to hwr about it without judgement? Ask her why she dresses that way. You don't know what her thinking is or what she may have experienced. Oh, btw, if her BF new what it meant to have his pants hanging down like that, he may just pull them up.

I didn't say anything about proper professional or job interview attire. That's not what we were talking about. I, personally, think one of the sexiest articles of clothing on a woman is a pair of nice, professional looking baggy pants that fit well. I had a pair of pants like that when I worked that I felt very sexy in. They were very loose. Didn't show anything. However, I didn't wear them to feel sexy. I wore them because they were appropriate for my job.

And, no, I did not question what I was wearing after I was raped. I knew that wasn't a factor. I'm sorry you were raped, and i'm sorry you questioned yourself because of it. It had nothing to do with anything you were wearing or anything you said or did.

Agreed, Hurt. That had absolutely nothing to do with someone hurting you. You hold zero blame for that. We all react differently to being raped and it sounds like you and I went in opposite directions. I cared less about whether or not I was attractive to any given man because I realized that my attire had nothing to do with whether or not someone would hurt me. You found a sense of protection in worrying about what you wore, it sounds like. Both reactions make complete sense.

Seriously though, none of that was on you.

I'm starting to think that the only way I wouldn't be "trying to get a guy" in your book would be if I actually went out of my way to try not to look decent when I left the house. Maybe scarred myself up, didn't bathe for a couple of weeks, stopped brushing my hair and ensured that I was covered from head to foot with burlap.

Minus the burlap (I prefer a bulky jacket), I've tried those other things, and they work, sort of. I still get harassed, but a lot less since getting all the scars - something about the crater in my forehead in particular makes me look like I'm always frowning. People do stare briefly, but there is absolutely no lust in their gaze. Or it could be the badass boots and the way I walk - I channel Severus Snape and think "Sectumsempra!" every so often to look especially menacing.

But, even that's not 100% foolproof. People notice each other. Just by virtue of being around, we'll get noticed. It's not right to blame our clothing choices for that, when it's so much more basic than that. By trying to make it about clothes, we ignore all the other folks (I'm guessing the majority) for whom clothes has no bearing on whether or not they're harassed. By making it about clothes, we make it a more readily accepted excuse for harassment. It's not right. And like most posters here have said - what they were wearing had nothing to do with it. That's the reality.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 7:25 PM, April 7th (Sunday)]

Dee

You are obviously in your free and available time of your life! Congrats.. your separated and D is on its way and you want to celebrate.

So in my early post I mentioned that something that was being discussed was how we carry ourselves. Positive and optimistic attitude is part of what makes you feel good and sexy.. so maybe your funky shoes is part of your “look”.

You exude “I’m open and available” which is fine and it’s palatable in your posts... I’m happy for you it’s a new time in your life that even the neighbor came over for a drink.

I’m not judging... kudos

But ultimately you dress because you will get attention even if it’s from your funky shoes.

So your a great example of dressing for the other sex.

What I said was that if you were raped you would think about what you wear!

Geez I didnt know that wearing jeans, t-shirt, sneakers and a jacket were provocative and going to land me a good raping.....FML.

I'm honestly shocked that anyone, especially someone who has been raped herself, would be so callus and hurtful to even suggest that a woman needs to watch what she wears to avoid attention so she doesn't get raped.

I don't see how I'm dressing for the other sex, though. I really don't. There's zero intent in me for that. I'm just being "me" and you're right, it's fantastic and I'm enjoying it immensely.

You know the scariest thing a man could say to me right now? "Hi Dee, you look great today. I really like you. Want to go out sometime?".

I'm way too damaged for that to be appealing right now. I'm genuinely positively not looking for a guy.

Yes, I did have that one hookup several months ago, but I'm not even open to that right now. And that was totally not due to me dressing for a guy. I was looking pretty rough, in my opinion.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 7:19 PM, April 7th (Sunday)]

Sorry for the t/j

Coco and Dee

Thanks for saying that what I wore had nothing to do with me being raped. I know it wasn’t my fault or how I dressed.

I was 13 ...I had a dress on since we came back from visiting family friends. ... nothing I wore contributed to that horrific moment.

But I realized that dresses were certainly something I would not wear or anything that could make me a sexual target.

I know other women that were raped that ended up dressing slutty.. somehow they associate sex with validation. I did not it made me feel dirty plus all the csa prior.

Ok, I’ve read through most but not all comments.

Of course assault/rape is wrong, and not the fault of the victim. But are you also saying that you don’t lock your car or house at night? Hold your purse tighter in a bad neighborhood? You do things because some people don’t do the right thing. If you want to go about with no locks on your doors because robbery is illegal and people shouldn’t take shit, you might be a little disappointed in life.

Also, I’ve learned you dress for the job you want. If you want to be a hooker, go ahead, dress like one. I see women every day dressing like a hooker. Fine, I really don’t care, but don’t bitch when you are passed over for a promotion or not given respect. And hookers dress the way they do to attract men. Not because it is comfortable.

Since when do people expect everyone to act correctly? Isn’t that why we are all here on this site? Some people are shitty.

And speaking for myself, when I dress up to go out at night, I do dress to be attractive to men. That is who I am trying to be attractive to. I sure as hell don’t wear heels walking my dogs before dawn. But, I don’t dress like a hooker, because I don’t want to be treated like one. I do wear skin tight pants when running, after 10 miles any loose pants rub my skin raw. Purely for function. Would not wear them to work or even out.

It is like freedom of speech, you have the right to say/wear anything but accept the response you may get.

[This message edited by million pieces at 8:10 PM, April 7th (Sunday)]

Amen Sister ^^^^^!!!

I must say that I feel very lucky. I wear some type of heel on my shoe or boot almost every single day--even weekends, and I've never been passed over for a promotion or raped. I am respected by both male and female colleagues and feel professional and my best self every day. I guess I've been living dangerously. Who knew?!

Lol, I dress to my tastes. Some days that’s yoga pants and a tank top. Some days it’s stilettos and a body con dress. Or sweats or jeans or short shorts. Whatever. I wear what I’m feeling and have never really given two craps whether some dude notices or not. I never noticed one way or the other.

That said, I used to once in awhile dress with the intention of turning my husbands head. Not anymore though. I could care less about him noticing either.

Ironically, my cheating ass husband notices men noticing me and I don’t. If I even put the slightest hint of makeup on these days, he notices, and it makes him nervous. 🤣

I'm an INTJ and I think that matters because I am very internally-driven and I have a hard time understanding that external validation means so much to most other people, though obviously I know that it does and there's nothing wrong with that.

When I was in my 20s and in great shape I loved dressing in clothes that showed off my healthy physique, but I am blessed to be very small-chested and I therefore have avoided a lot of unwanted sexual attention in my life. I have a fond memory of wearing a yellow bikini to a pool party attended by me, my husband, and a dozen gay men, and there was a chorus of gay men praising me for rocking my bikini. The affirming attention by people who weren't jealous of or attracted to my body was quite fun. Ah.

I don't wear make-up. I usually remember to brush my hair. I like expensive jewelry. I have more fun wearing a beautiful ring on my finger that probably only I notice than being done up in any other way.

My husband is interesting case study to me because he decidedly likes women who don't wear make-up or do themselves up (no coincidence there), but he likes to be carefully groomed and coiffed and dressed nicely himself. I think attraction is attraction, but he's more into external validation than I am, and has less natural self-esteem. (Hence the affair, cough cough.)

I haven't read all the replies so I'm sure someone has pointed this out already, but this question is very simplistic and derivative on its own. It ignores the spectrums of sexuality and gender identity. But we are mammals with a drive to reproduce so yes, we engage in mate-attracting behaviors from time to time. Do we do this when we are already in a monogamous relationship? Well, hopefully not. But many do, I'm sure.

As I told my husband the other night, if someone I had just met told me he was falling in love with me, I would just say, "Ew, but you don't know me, you moron." Honestly. I've only ever been interested in long-term monogamous relationships, so anyone propositioning me when that was obviously not feasible would be viewed as a nuisance. But he was like, "Ooooooh . . . validation! Oooooooooh . . . sex!" Validation and sex are fun but when they cost you the monogamous relationship you committed yourself to for mutual satisfaction and the rearing of children, then you've made a bad trade.

The more I listen here from the ladies that have said that they "dress for themselves" and the guys saying ,that that is sexy. You are BOTH right! Why? Because when the women on here "dress for themselves" they are in most cases dressing according to todays fashions. Todays fashions being designed with the premise of desiring male attention.

Actually I really don't think that you can make yourself undesirable if you tried. Like today's tattoo craze. I mean some absolutely beautiful women, think Venus Di Milo beautiful, are letting people put graffiti permanently on their body's. Still men are trying to match up and chasing them as hard as ever.

I'm sure you have seen the pictures of the women in Africa with the plates in their lips and the women with rings on their neck's. it was done so that the nearby tribesmen would not want their women and stop raiding and stealing hem. Even that didn't work.

Men are aggressive, some of us have learned to control it and sadly some haven't. All I can do is treat women like Ladies and use my aggression for their protection rather than to inflict pain in them.

JMO YMMV

"But we are mammals with a drive to reproduce so yes, we engage in mate-attracting behaviors from time to time. "

my intent is not to attract a mate and reproduce. That shop is closed anyway, because I'm married and through menopause. Comfort is a big goal though... hence, the yoga pants.

"All I can do is treat women like Ladies and use my aggression for their protection rather than to inflict pain in them."

Thank you, candyman

I don't purposely dress to today's fashion, either. I guess maybe I end up doing that some because i'm limited in what is available. But, I don't even know what the fashions are. Most of the time, when i'm shopping, I can't find anything I like.

The reproductive ship has sailed for me, too. And, I already have a mate. I do understand that young, single people dress to impress.

Hurt, it might be more helpful for everyone if you talked about yourself rather than telling others what they are thinking and why they are doing what they do.

We don't lock the doors to our house. We don't live in a quiet, small town where everyone knows everyone, either. We live in a metropolis. Maybe I've become to comfortable from living on military bases. We don't live on one now. Or, maybe it's because my pitbull makes me feel safe. They say dogs, even little ones, are the best protection.

I do lock my car. The neighborhood has asked that we do that to help cut down on crime. The car is much easier to break into, although there's nothing of value in it. That's more of a child safety issue to me. I don't want a young child climbing in my car and getting stuck and possibly dying.

[This message edited by cocoplus5nuts at 7:24 AM, April 8th (Monday)]

We don't lock the doors to our house.

And this is a good analogy because, in a lot of ways, unwanted sexual advances and theft are similar in that they are crimes of opportunity. There are lots of videos out there of idiots walking down a street and "trying" door after door and then going in and stealing from the first one that's unlocked. Yes, they were probably going to steal from someone that day, but it didn't have to be you. And that's how I feel about the clothes that some women wear, yes, maybe the deli guy was going to, no matter what, harass someone today, but, you can dress in a way that makes it very unlikely that it will be you, as can I.

You have to realize, most people, even men, didn't wake up today and think "I'm gonna harass me some women today". It's not like these are criminal masterminds planning a heist that requires a few Mini Coopers and a helicopter. They are just run of the mill house thieves, looking for an easy target where they might get 20 bucks for something they can pawn. If the target is "too hard", well, they will find another target or go back to playing video games and smoking pot.

Yes, there are some truly bad people out there. You can have locked doors, bulletproof glass and a safe in the basement filled with guns, there are some people who are still going to come after your stuff. But these people are dramatically rarer than the ones who will stroll in your unlocked door and pickup a laptop off the table and run. It's not about making yourself immune to theft, it's about making yourself a hard enough target that they pass you over for an easier score.

Yes, if you run into the "really bad people", it's still going to happen. And maybe a lot of men are really "bad people" and the deli counter will be an unsafe place no matter what you wear. If so, that's sad, and I'm sorry. I don't know men like this and that's certainly not me personally.

People get into this reductive thing, I call it the "nuclear option" at work, where they go round and round on something until the only answer is "I cannot fix it, therefore I will do nothing". No, you can't fix it, but there were 20 things we talked about before you threw your hands up that would HELP the situation. And yes, I realize I'm doing the same thing with men, "I cannot fix it, therefore accept it as a given", but, there's not 20 things I can do to help the situation either. In fact, the only thing I can reliably do is not be "that guy" myself, which I do try to do. But beyond that, there's not a lot of "fixing" that I can do.

If we want to close with the analogy of locking the doors, if my neighbor came over and said "RIO, kids keep coming into my house and stealing stuff while I'm at work", I'd sympathize with him. No, your stuff shouldn't get stolen. Can you get a better lock for your front door? Oh, you don't lock it? Well, let's start there, lock the front door and let's see if that helps. And I can offer to keep an eye out for him, but, we all know, he'll have dramatically more success putting in and using a deadbolt than hoping I happen to be looking at his house the moment someone tries the front door again. And that's what this conversation feels like to me, my neighbor getting pissed at me because someone keeps stealing from him. Well, I get it that your mad, but it's not my fault! And if you're not taking any measures at all to change the situation (by locking the door) well, it's not my responsibility to spend all day staring at your unlocked door waiting for something to happen. Sure, if I happen to see it, darn right I'm going to report it. No, I'm not going to stroll over there with a gun and confront them though, I'm just not going to do it, it's too risky, I don't have "basis" for using violence because it's not my house and frankly, you (neighbor) contributed to this situation by not taking any steps at all to protect your home and instead are depending on the kindness of your neighbor (me) to protect it for you. Well, I'm a nice guy, so I'm not going to help the guys next door clean you out by offering a wheelbarrel and hand cart to help them move your stuff, that's for sure. But I'm also not going to spend my days "on the alert" for something that was/is much easier for you to avoid/prevent than it is for me to head off once it's in progress. And the same applies to people dressed in a way that attracts a lot of attention, just with a lower threshold of what it would take to get me to jump in (because now if the crime is occurring, people are getting hurt and I'll act to protect them, whereas my neighbor, the crime itself isn't physically hurting anyone, so I'm less likely to jump in the fray than for someone who's actually getting their ass kicked by another person, man or woman.

Devastated Dee:You stated,

Lack of respect and empathy are the problem.

Wouldn't that go both ways? Isn't it lacking respect to wear clothes that are too tight that your private skin are showing at family functions? My husband is right, he isn't the only one that is disgusted by the way she dresses. Her grandmother has already asked her to stop dressing that way, and she ignored her. Just feeling a feeling by via of look = judging something. We judge a painting. We judge flowers. I do go beyond that and have understanding of her. Of which I will not post here. It doesn't change that fact that I don't want to see anyone's private skin that isn't wearing a bathing suit. If we are supposed to be so understanding that we aren't disgusted by the show of skin, why can't she be so understanding that some people don't want to see the skin? Why do we have to do what we clearly aren't comfortable with? It wouldn't kill her to cover up some more? I don't want to see it on her, my children, or my students. There is a dress code in schools for a reason, because it is inappropriate. If the dress codes are dropped, then there goes one more value out the door on the road to a social breakdown that is already a problem in schools.

OwningitNow: If some women aren't dressing to impress other men, why did you instantly jump to jealousy that Hurtbeyondtime was experiencing? Wouldn't jealousy mean that something must exist for her to be made jealous about.

Hurtbeyondtime, I don't think you feel jealous or threatened at all. I don't understand why she even got that out of your post unless she is instantly judging you as a BS. I understood the points you were making completely. I know that a survivor becomes hypervigilant to her dress and her body after being abused. I know for a long time I was aware of what made me a woman, made me feel scared when I began to develop. It reminded me of why my stepfather wanted me. I certainly didn't want to accentuate any of that. I takes a conscience effort and some IC to move past those feelings. I still dress in long skirts and I wear what I wear because I choose to be modest. I like the look and I am a teacher. My goal is to look professional, put together, and tasteful. I am offended by women that wear what my niece wears and that doesn't stem from abuse, or being jealous because my husband cheated. It is because that is simply my taste.

I don't think our opinions on what they are wearing is far off from a larger majority here. Many posters already stated they wouldn't want their daughters dressing like that and for a variety of reasons.

As a woman in her 40s, I don't dress to impress anyone, including myself. I just get dressed because, well, it's the convention. I just buy the same stuff over and over, and pretty much all black and dark colors so I don't have to think about it. I just don't have any free brain space to devote to wardrobe. It's taken up with a demanding full time job, a demanding 5 year old, a number of demanding relatives, taxes, trying to maintain some order in the house, making sure people are fed, etc etc etc

I do have a few shirts that might be cut lower than I like, and pants that are too form-fitting. But that's just what is sold these days, and I'm not going to go to a bunch of different stores to suit my personal modesty. I usually have 30 minutes to clothes shop... PER YEAR. I literally just go grab a bunch of crap off the racks and just choose what looks least terrible.

That said... when I was 17? Absolutely I dressed to attract attention.

So I suspect what is going on is that most men decide what women's motivations are when they are 17, and then they never update this decision as they get older.

Women over 30? No, they're not dressing for you. Younger women? Yeah they might be dressing for men, but in their same age group. So unless you are under 30, they're not dressing for you, either. I know it's tough to hear.