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So for a long time I felt pretty indifferent towards AP, and I answered others when they asked about whether hating them or indifference was better. It made sense to me at the time that would be the best to have no feeling toward them.

Today, there was some rehashing and afterwards I realized that I don’t feel indifferent. I think he is a bad person, that he had a predatory nature. I wondered how stupid could someone be to have an affair with a serial cheater who just recycled bullshit over and over? I felt an instant dislike and disgust. I felt angry with myself. This type of thinking seems hypocritical to me as I was there making he decisions. I don’t blame him that I had the affair, I don’t think he convinced me or tricked me. But I was surprised I had lost my indifference towards him. Keep me in check - is this wayward thinking creeping back in - being a hypocrite - or is this a just a product of evolution of my vision of the affair?

I also realized the one thing I am totally sick of is that he stays in any picture of anything going on in my life. Most of our conversations and thoughts are more about me, my behavior, my husbands feelings, and our marriage. But as it gets rehashed different ways I sometimes wonder does the AP ever exit stage left? Is this normal? And is it a step backward or forward? He is for certain not a daily or even weekly focus but sometimes when the hard stuff comes up I am just so fucking sick of “him”.

I am not sure what to make of it. The talk with h ended well but I have all the residual ickiness left over from it that it makes me sad. I know it’s probably just a bad moment, but it’s looping in my head and I have to untangle it.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:57 PM, April 17th (Wednesday)]

Hi!

I only have a minute but I think it could be that you are more disgusted at yourself and it just comes out because he is why you disgust yourself? That’s how it is for me. I don’t care one way or the other about him but I certainly don’t think he is anything close to my BS and I hate myself - thinking of him makes that hate bubble up!,

Can explain more later if you wish!

My guess is that something triggered this thought pattern.

The fact that you chose to cheat can easily coexist with the fact that om was a predatory so-and-so. If you triggered on a mistake you made, it seems to me your mind might take you to other mistakes* you made - choosing to cheat, letting yourself be sucked in by this guy.

* IMO, if a WS calls her/his A a 'mistake', s/he's probably minimizing. I'm a BS, though, and I believe cheating is within the definition of 'mistake' - for example, 'an error in action ... or judgment caused by poor reasoning, carelessness...etc.'

I didn’t have a particular goal along those lines, but I reached indifference after several years—probably 6 or so. I do think that continuing to have negative feelings keeps the AP in the forefront.

Indifference is the goal - but it’s okay to be mad/disappointed/disgusted with the person you were during the affair. Actually, it’s probably healthy to think of that person you were in that way. Just don’t forget to appreciate the person you’ve become - get mad at yourself for who you were but then self-hug who you are now.

I had to forgive. Then I let go.

Then he was gone. It's not the same as indifference.

Edited: typo

[This message edited by Maia at 12:13 PM, April 18th (Thursday)]

So...

This topic thread and the line of thinking and the emotions you are experiencing and describing has me pondering a question; what if he wasn't a serial cheater that was expertly applying certain methods, techniques, and time and application tested rhetorical "The Player's Greatest Hits"?

Personally, I think it is okay to feel however you want to about your AP. As even you said, as long as you are clear and honest with yourself about your part in the affair (not blame shifting) then why should there be a requirement to feel indifferent about the AP?

Look, everything you said is true, that you were there too, making decisions, not being forced, doing bad things too. I get that. But personally, I've never understood the logic of, "You did (that wrong thing) too, so you have no room to talk". I disagree completely on that one. I think that being there and doing the wrong thing too gives you more credence to critisize someone else for the same thing.

A great example of this thinking is AA. How could a bunch of raging alcoholics get together and talk about alcohol, even sponser one another, and help others to quit drinking, when they themselves are alcoholics? On paper, it doesn't sound right. But in practice, only another alcoholic really understands what that other person is going through. And it makes it so much easier to relate to another alcoholic, knowing that they aren't "perfect" either.

My point being, the AP is a person, and seeing as how they had an affair with a married person, were also involved in all the lies, the betrayal, the gas-lighting and whatever else, I think it is perfectly fine to look back and say, "Hey, that person was a real asshole". Because they were. And likely still are.

The other PITA about AP's is that they become part of your life even when they are gone. The AP could drop dead tomorrow, and yet it wouldn't be as if the affair died with them. The AP's ghost remains in the marriage, sleeping between you and your spouse at night, popping up in arguments, haunting old memories forever. They may be gone, yet they never really "leave" altogether.

So yeah. The affair is your fault, but that doesn't leave the AP blameless.

All good thoughts. I think many of you were right - I was feeling disgusted with myself more than anything. The conversation h and I were having was about how I knew before the affair got off the ground that the AP was a womanizing person with a string of AP’s before me. He was questioning me surrounding that. There isn’t a sane answer. I mean I know the answer but it lacks any logic. So that’s probably why it was so specific.

Quietdan - I felt that your question was very insightful as well. It made me question myself as to why that would be what made me notice that I am not as indifferent as I thought I was. The reality is I don’t know the answer to your question but I suspect that I would still think he wasn’t a good person but maybe I would be listing other reasons for it. I do think sisson touched on it - it’s that I am angry at myself reflecting on a bad decision. But you are right quietdan it’s not because he was a serial cheater that made it a bad decision. Doing it at all made it a bad decision.

I think I just was also aggravated because sometimes I don’t have to really picture much about him any more (I think of him more in the abstract if that makes sense) and when I do I really really dislike it. It’s humiliating in so many ways I don’t even want to get into- but suffice it to say knowing the level to which I stooped with the type of person I chose to stoop to it with - who is far lesser of a man than the one I had at home - well I could really smack myself now. But I made the mess, so that is just a consequence.

I know in the end darkness falls is right - that Negative emotion or any emotion let’s him stay around. And that sassy is right, be mad but then come back. And Maia also may be right - I may need to forgive him- it speaks to the struggle of trying to forgive myself. Daddydom is also right - it’s okay to think those things because the AP was culpable too. I never really looked at it that way until lately and probably that was part of the delayed response.

It over all was a bad few hours, but the evening was better. It’s just confusing sometimes when you think you are in one place but realize your emotions are in another.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:46 PM, April 17th (Wednesday)]

I've been struggling with this, but from the other side. I am indifferent to the OM, but I've read many times on SI that I'm supposed to hate him, that anything less than unqualified loathing means I have no chance at R. The only acceptable script is that he was a player who targeted me as an easy mark to manipulate, and if I dispute that in any way, I'm still in the fog.

I think my issues with this tie in with the book "Not Just Friends." It's a great book and frequently recommended to newly arrived WS. If you listen to some of the comments here, though, you have to wonder if some of the posters who recommend the book have actually read it. The primary case study, the affair of Ralph and Lara, starts as an EA at work. Both parties are flawed people who manage to self-justify their betrayal of their spouses, but the whole premise of Glass's argument is that affairs happen all the time between people who did not set out to have them, and indeed believed they could never betray their marriage. Things warm up by slow degrees, each line made hazier by the one before it. The takeaway is that what looks like an innocent friendship can go south fast without proper boundaries. We have a thread going right now with someone who is on that trajectory.

I'm indifferent to OM. I certainly didn't start out that way. We started as friends; he lived across the hall from me in college, and I had lots of guy friends. I was in a LDR and had zero intention of cheating. I made sure to mention my BF frequently. But the fact is, I felt a spark for OM early on and had no idea how to handle that. I fought it, unsuccessfully. If I knew then what I know now, I'd have done everything in my power to avoid bumping into him in the hallway, would have quit the show we were both working on, would have ghosted him in every way possible. Instead, I convinced myself that I could keep a handle on it. I was so, so wrong. I eventually talked to my BF about dating OM "casually." I was the one who instigated the first kiss. Later in the A, OM was the one pushing the envelope, but to this day, I don't think he would have initiated any kind of dating relationship if I hadn't opened the door. That was me. If I blame him, I'm not owning my shit.

Was OM everything I believed he was? Hell, no. He was weak and conflict-avoidant and projected the qualities he wanted in a girlfriend on to me. I did the exact same thing to him. We were both pathetically using each other for self-validation. I can work up a fair amount of contempt for how blind and manipulative we were, and I hate where that led. But do I dream of him being cheated on or fired or beaten up in a back alley? No. He's off somewhere living his life, and I basically hope for his wife's sake that he grew up and found some authenticity before he married her. I kinda doubt it, but I hope he did. I think my BH might find any of the misfortunes I listed pretty satisfying if they happened to OM, and that's fine with me. He has every right to feel that way.

So anyway, I guess I'm wondering if there is any "right" answer to whether we're aiming for hatred or indifference. The important thing is to keep digging for why you're feeling it, and it sounds like you're doing that.

For a pretty long time my feelings swung around. At first I pined, then I shut it all down hard, then I took a definitive step to sever all emotional connection. I had idealized AP so much and the cognitive dissonance was so strong that it had to come off in layers. Things BS pointed out to me even before D-day I just minimized or wrote off. Things AP told me (like having been involved with a married woman before me) or drugs that he took that he didn't tell me about at the time it all just got put through the minimizer machine. Things I experienced directly myself seeing him be an asshole to someone else I convinced myself it was okay because I was the special one he wasn't an asshole to.

Over probably 3-4 years after D-day I reformulated my picture of AP. I think disgust is the main feeling that comes up when I think about him but, like you, I think that cringing has more to do with what I did. He was pretty comfortable with being gross, I deluded myself into believing I wasn't.

In my better moments when I think about him I just see him as a fucked up person, as fucked up as I was at least. I doubt he's done the work to change. He was single and was not dealing with a BS. In that respect I guess the most positive thing I could say about it is I hope he figures his shit out at some point so that he can stop hurting himself and other people, but that is not different than many other people I'm aware of.

In the "loving kindness meditation" practice the exercise is to wish for ourselves "to be free of suffering and the root of suffering" and then make progress in being able to extend that wish out to the people we care about, to the people we feel neutral about, to our enemies, and then to all sentient beings. I have not really been able to include AP in there (except in the 'all sentient beings' part I suppose) but to put him in a category by name I've never actually done it. I think I would put him in the "neutral" category except there is still that lingering stink of my involvement with him having heaped so much pain and damage onto BS. I don't know if that will ever go away.

Another excellent post. I've only skimmed through it so far, but I personally don't think I'm ready to hear my own wife say that she's indifferent to her APs as of yet.

That may be a goal in the very distant future, but not yet for us, at least.

You've given me some thoughts to ponder, as well. Does my wife's anger for her APs take the place of her anger for herself?

That's something I want to dig into.

Thanks hikingout!

[This message edited by Wool94 at 8:06 AM, April 18th (Thursday)]

Did your husband ask or did you just feel this way during a discussion of something else related. I hated my APs for a short time only because they wouldn't leave us alone. When they did, they became indifferent to me. They were women and they were predators. I just don't even see any difference in APs and waywards as predators or players. We both choose to do something wrong. It really doesn't matter if they are new, predator, or players. My job was to turn away period. That being said, I was always disgusted by women like that since God knows when. During that year, I stopped being disgusted and decided to just compartmentalize my disgust in order to get the attention. Since I worked for 10hr shifts with AP1 and she was good enough, I began to shift to seeing what I felt as usually disgusting as carefree making it easier to justify a relationship. I still get disgusted by women that have to throw themselves around. I think you can be indifferent to the AP themselves but be disgusted by that type of character in general. I don't think you are being a hypocrite. It is a moral or value system you judge people by in order to know safe or unsafe.

Bravesirrobin,

Contempt is a good word. I will say, I am not surprised you are indifferent - the AP in your situation has been out of the picture for so long now. I would not say I wish AP ill will, I don't have that kind of hatred towards anyone.

Evolving - I think you touched on a few things that hit home here.

I think I would put him in the "neutral" category except there is still that lingering stink of my involvement with him having heaped so much pain and damage onto BS. I don't know if that will ever go away.

I imagine this is a big thing that I am struggling with, the permanence of the stink.

I also think that the coming off in layers made a lot of sense. After the pining was over, I was so relieved to be free of that I just kind of put him in a box with no other processing. I didn't miss him any more, I realized I never knew him at all, and I realized that the draw was more about how the affair made me feel rather than anything really to do about him. My focus completely went on the other things, and I really haven't thought that much more about him as a person. But the "permanence of the stink" some of that is not just disgust with myself or with him, though I felt that yesterday in spades...it's the fact that through this act of adultery that I have permanently linked myself in some way with him.

(I know it's not really with "him")

Zug - you are on point. And, yes, H was asking specifically about that. It's hard for anyone to imagine throwing your marriage away because you are "in love" with someone who is so inappropriate. The AP was inappropriate in so many ways, but the fact I knew he was a serial cheater and knew details about that and completely disregarded it...that is one of the things H is processing now. It borders to him on sounding like I was temporarily insane or something. I understand it differently, and I have explained the way I see it, but it's going to take some processing for him. I don't think he will ever understand it, I wouldn't if I were him. I think I am indifferent in the ways it matters I supposed, but like ES said - I think it might just be part of the reprocessing of knowing someone for years and thinking of them one way, but then realizing that I saw behind the mask and it was something completely different in there.

Wool = I understand. I am glad it helped you in some way.

I would think that, after enough time, the AP will occupy space like any ex. I have some exes from prior to my current marriage about whom I harbor feelings like regret for having gotten involved with them. They were bad experiences. I'm no purely indifferent about all of my pre-marriage exes.

No stop sign. BS here and having a rough day of it.

Before subsequent DDay(s) I would have said that the goal is that the AP doesn't exist for my WH - not even a thought - but only after a period of loathing and hatred.

After subsequent DDays I'm kind of in a negative place where I want to stomp my feet and have a Men In Black flashy thing pointed at me set to 4.5 years.

I'd like to get back to the non-existence after a period of hatred and loathing goal. For both of us.

I would think that, after enough time, the AP will occupy space like any ex. I have some exes from prior to my current marriage about whom I harbor feelings like regret for having gotten involved with them. They were bad experiences. I'm no purely indifferent about all of my pre-marriage exes.

I tried to relate that in some way. I am truly indifferent about all of them. Honestly. Even my ex-husband, in fact, we are still friends on facebook and one of our kids was born like a day or two a part. No feelings come up for me there. I had one really nasty breakup in which I was lied to, treated poorly, gaslighted, and manipulated. It took me longer to get to indifference about it, but I forgave him a long time ago and if I ever think about that time it's more a focus on what I have learned.

Maybe this goes to that arena, and it's just not been enough time. But, it's different - it is something that caused my husband intense grief. It was a 2 month situation that has caused an extreme amount of pain now for 2 years. Relationships we have pre-marriage do not do that. I do think it will get better over time. Some of it is self-forgiveness (I don't know if it's possible. I am in acceptance, and I am responsible. I feel that I am not that person now...but forgiveness no.) It's far more complicated than that, but I too wanted to relate it to prior relationships...it's just not.

I'd like to get back to the non-existence after a period of hatred and loathing goal. For both of us.

Yes, I can understand it. And as much as I have complained about it, I know my husband feels this much more intensely than I do. He is married to the person who brought the "stinking" as ES put it.

I always had trouble with the thought of being indifferent. Initially, I wanted my wife to not be completely indifferent but to have some anger toward him. I wanted her to say if she saw him and he tried to talk to her she would curse him out and walk away before he could say anything. He did come to the house one day. I opened the door and there he was. My wife saw him, turned around, and went right upstairs leaving me with the POS. I simply closed the door. I was made at myself for not punching the POS in the face but it was for the best, I guess. Still wished I had done it. There seems to be no emotion if his name comes up, which is not too much. So she is at indifference. I dont think I will ever get there.

It's a contact thing. When the AP comes up it sets you back but only for a period of time. It will continue to dissipate but he will always remain to some extent permanently.

Like a scar.

Life goes on and you'll learn to live with it. The current negativity will turn to indifference over time.

my xOM was a predator. I didn't really understand that for a long time. I'm pretty sure he was also a SA. He was sick, possibly a sociopath and I do believe that. He was into rape porn etc. He was a serial cheater.

of course at the time I wasn't so great either.

anyhow. a music video someone posted not long after I first got here helped me to quit idolizing and start to see him for what he was. It's Henry Rollins Liar video and you can look it up on youtube.

actually this video helped me in many ways. it helped me understand thats how my BH saw me. It helped me put xOM in perspective. I had to see him as he was to forgive him and let go. I had to define what it was he did to hurt me, specifically.

lyrics:

you think you're gonna to live your life alone

in darkness

and seclusion

yeah I know

you've been out there

tried to mix with those animals

and it just left you full of humiliated confusion

so you stagger back home

and wait for nothing

but the solitary refinement of your room spits you back out onto the street

and now you're desperate

and in need of human contact

and then

you meet me

and you whole world changes

because everything I say is everything you've ever wanted to hear

so you drop all your defenses and you drop all your fears

and you trust me completely

I'm perfect

in every way

cause I make you feel so strong and so powerful inside

you feel so lucky

but your ego obscures reality

and you never bother to wonder why

things are going so well

you want to know why?

cause I'm a liar

yeah I'm a liar

I'll tear your mind out

I'll burn your soul

I'll turn you into me

I'll turn you into me

cause I'm a liar, a liar

a liar, a liar

I'll hide behind a smile

and understanding eyes

and I'll tell you things that you already know

so you can say

I really identify with you, so much

and all the time that you're needing me

is just the time that I'm bleeding you

don't you get it yet?

I'll come to you like an affliction

and I'll leave you like an addiction

you'll never forget me

you want to know why?

cause I'm a liar

yeah I'm a liar

I'll rip your mind out

I'll burn your soul

I'll turn you into me

I'll turn you into me

cause I'm a liar, a liar

liar, liar, liar, liar

I don't know why I feel the need to lie

and cause you so much pain

maybe it's something inside

maybe it's something I can't explain

cause all I do

is mess you up and lie to you

I'm a liar

oh, I am a liar

if you'll give me one more chance

I swear that I will never lie to you again

because now I see the destructive power of a lie

they're stronger than truth

I can't believe I ever hurt you

I swear

I will never to you lie again, please

just give me one more chance

I will never lie to you again

I swear

that I will never tell a lie

I will never tell a lie

no, no

ha ha ha ha ha hah haa haa haa haaa

sucker

sucker!

oh, sucker

I am a liar

yeah, I am a liar

yeah I like it

I feel good

ohh I am a liar

yeah

I lie

I lie

I lie

oh, I lie

oh I lie

I lie

yeah

ohhh I'm a liar

I lie

yeah

I like it

I feel good

I'll lie again

and again

I'll lie again and again

and I'll keep lying

I promise