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>>>> #Nocountryforoldmen <<<<

Great movie. Most appropriate.

El Paso Sheriff: "If you'da told me twenty years ago I'd see children walking the streets of our Texas towns with green hair, bones in their noses, I'da just flat out wouldn't have believed you."

Ed Tom Bell: "Signs and wonders. But I think once you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am" the rest is soon to foller."

El Paso Sheriff (wagging his finger at Ed Tom Bell): "It's the tide. It's the dismal tide. It's not the one thing."

Ed Tom Bell (shaking his head): "Not the one thing."

Anyway, I don’t for one second believe narcissism is on the rise. C’est juste le mot du jour. It’s really easy to label anyone who was wronged you as a ‘narc’. Ironically, doing so sounds very narcissistic? Regardless, it’s all very counter healing and sounds very “blame-shifty”.

Psychology Today:

Over the years, these questionnaires have been administered to many samples of college students, and analyses that bring all of the data together reveal that the average narcissism score has been steadily increasing and the average empathy score has been steadily decreasing ever since the questionnaires were developed [3.] The changes are highly significant statistically and sufficiently large that approximately 70 percent of students today score higher on narcissism and lower on empathy than did the average student thirty years ago.

You might not see it, but it's happening. And (this part IMHO) it's a big part of the reason you're seeing the world and interactions between people change.

Anyway, I don’t for one second believe narcissism is on the rise. C’est juste le mot du jour. It’s really easy to label anyone who was wronged you as a ‘narc’. Ironically, doing so sounds very narcissistic? Regardless, it’s all very counter healing and sounds very “blame-shifty”.

Blame shifty? Wow. What an insult to those of us who have been on the receiving end of a narcissists abuse, no matter what the level.

Please understand that to those of us who have or are living it, narcissism is not the flavor of the month. It is very real. Very painful. I don't label everyone who has wronged me as narcissistic. Some of them were just pure assholes.

I suppose you have not experienced the phases of a relationship with a narc. Nor have you experienced gaslighting. Devaluing. Discarding. You haven't felt used as a prop in someone's life to make them look better. As if they are a great parent, spouse, friend etc.

I would suggest before you accuse any BS of a narcissist as being blame shifty, that you do some reading and research. Your comment is pretty disrespectful to be honest because blame shifting is a tactic of a WS which I am not.

There is no mistaking the difference between an asshole and a narcissist.

You mean a psychology magazine released an article (note: article, not study) on a hot button topic? Geez, I don’t think that would have anything to do with selling a copy or two?

RIO, you are certainly entitled to believe narcissism is on the rise. However that does not mean it’s happening, or that I should be seeing it the way you do. Now, of course, my evidence is only anecdotal, but it suits my perceptions well.

Yeah, MBB, my ex was a saint! I wouldn’t have a clue as to what I’m talking about. She actually made infidelity and divorce such a breeze that hopefully my next wife will be just as kind!

Instead of accusing me of not knowing anything or reading anything and being just generally clueless, understand (cause y’all are so empathetic) that I’m allowed my opinion and it could be different than yours.

All assholes have more narcissistic traits than non-assholes. All cheaters have more narcissistic traits than non-cheaters. How many of those traits before you are labeled a narc, a sociopath, or a psychopath? Even the professional community wouldn't agree on that answer. There are many narcissistic people running around nurturing fake selves and wearing masks. The level of their dysfunction is not something that anyone needs to worry about unless you live with, work with, marry, and are related to them. And then the only thing you need to concern yourself with is how to survive and thrive . . . and ignore other people's opinions on your situation. (Take what you need and leave what you completely dismiss as inaccurate. I do it daily.)

As a website that houses many codependent types high in empathy and understanding, we are a natural honey for those high in narcissism all the way to the sociopaths and everything in between. For that reason, raising awareness here so that we know who and what to beware of is the critical work of a BS. These toxic narcissistic types have an M.O., and we need to understand what that is to avoid them wherever we meet them.

No matter the percentages, there are millions of cluster b disordered types. They are not unicorns. They are real and they are toxic and the true narcs, sociopaths, and psychopaths almost always cheat at some point. Or a lot of points. Their egos demand it

I have spent years and years on and off in IC, and we have discussed the narcs in my life thoroughly and completely. It has been so helpful in learning how to understand and cope with the behaviors that always follow--rages, gaslighting, love bombing, controlling, projecting, manipulating, and the outright lying!!! We all need help to counter this very real personality type who lives and works among us. These people are human bulldozers, so damaging.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 5:23 PM, June 24th (Monday)]

Yeah, MBB, my ex was a saint! I wouldn’t have a clue as to what I’m talking about. She actually made infidelity and divorce such a breeze that hopefully my next wife will be just as kind!

I never said she was, nor did I say you haven't experienced pain. You wouldn't be here if you hadn't. That said, not everyone is married to a narcissist. I have had boyfriends in the past who were absolute jerks but I wouldn't consider all narcissists. My WH is unlike any of them. For years I have been trying to understand what was wrong with me. It threw me into depression and anxiety because he was increasingly checked out of the marriage. After DDay and learning about narcissism I am understanding more and more. Each memory I look back on I can now see the meanings. The patterns. The phases.

Maybe your wife is a narc. I don't know. I know what I am living and have experienced. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion as am I and I base them on my personal experience. But I'll tell you the one thing that's different between us. You mention a possible future wife which means you would be willing to give marriage another chance. I wish I felt the same but if I wind up apart from my WH I have no intention of ever marrying again. The damage is done.

And actually I am very empathetic which is part of the push pull with my WH who lacks any true sign of it. Part of the narcissist and codependent dance.

our sons friends would get into trouble and their parents would do whatever they needed to get them out instead of having their kids face the consequences of their actions. I have friends and family in the education system and it is rampant.

This has been going on forever. All 3 of my parents were teachers for years starting in the 70s. They all experienced this throughout their careers.

Young people are treated like crap. God forbid they finally start to demand to be treated with common decency. Respect is earned. A person does not deserve respect simply because of their age. You earn respect through your behavior. If, as an older person, you disrespect a younger person, don't be surprised when they disrespect you back.

ETA: "I am your elder. You MUST respect me." Entitled much?

[This message edited by cocoplus5nuts at 7:45 AM, June 25th (Tuesday)]

Medical students suffer from "medical student syndrome" (="medical students disease") in which the student experiences the symptoms of the disease they are studying. The diseases are frightening. It's a form of hypochondriasis.

Psychology undergrads are not immune to hypochondriasis. They suffer from "psychology students disease". When they take their first abnormal psychology class, they develop symptoms of the disease of the week. Week 1? Schizophrenia. Week 2? Bipolar disorder. Week 3? Dementia.

Psychology undergrads also begin to suspect their family members, friends, and acquaintences have mental illnesses. Uncle Bob? Avoidant Personality Disorder. Downstairs neighbor? Borderline. Mom? OCD. Aunt Shirley? Histrionic.

When you first learned terms like "masochistic", "passive-aggressive", or "codependent" didn't you apply the terms a little too eagerly?

It's part of the reason that terms like "sociopath" or "narcissist" or "codependent" can suddenly seem to explain everything.

Why did my wife have an affair? Could it be because she had reached a stage in her life when she felt unfulfilled and some opportunist came along and told her she was pretty and fascinating? How pedestrian. Nope. She had an affair because she has a "Cluster B personality disorder". Yeah. That's the ticket.

Coco- who said anything about the kids being disrespected. We raise our kids and we need the education system to assist in that raising. Are you saying kids don’t need discipline? You can discipline without disrespecting. Kids that are raised with no discipline are not given a good upbringing. We teach kids what is right and wrong so they can become responsible adults.

Should kids be permitted to do whatever they want, whenever they want? You completely misunderstood my point which is fine. While I agree that there are bad teachers out there, not all are. Kids need to be raised and shown respect and learn respect, IMHO

Also we teach our kids when to respect others as much as they learn that themselves. No one said you have respect elders just because they are elders.

It is also not my experience that young people are treated like crap. At least not anything I’ve seen or experienced.

[This message edited by deephurt at 9:31 AM, June 25th (Tuesday)]

Heph-I have never heard that about students. Where did you learn that from?

Psychology undergrads also begin to suspect their family members, friends, and acquaintences have mental illnesses. Uncle Bob? Avoidant Personality Disorder. Downstairs neighbor? Borderline. Mom? OCD. Aunt Shirley? Histrionic.

Yep, I did this after taking a psychology class. My fch tried to diagnose me after reading a few books. He continued to believe I was bipolar even though I had been diagnosed by several different doctors with major depressive disorder and anxiety. According to a battery of tests, I am clearly not bipolar.

deephurt, there has always been a respect your elders rule. Children and teens are treated badly all the time. There's actually a word for it, childism. I see it a lot. I saw it at the dentist the other day when a father was oh so pleasant and charming to all the adults but downright mean and nasty to his young son who wasn't doing anything. My 15 year old son has been verbally assaulted by adults for doing his job twice since he started working on Memorial Day weekend, so maybe a month now.

Adults think children need to be trained, molded, punished, controlled. Discipline means to teach. The best way to teach is by example. If you want someone to treat you with respect, regardless of age, you need to treat them with respect first. Most conventional parenting methods and school policies are disrespectful of children and teens.

I really don't want to get into a debate over this. It would entail me detailing specific padult behaviors, which is not what this forum is for. I only answered because your post comes across to me as angry and defensive. It's ok for us to disagree. It is a fact, however, that each adult generation means and groans about the younger generation. You can see it today in the war between baby boomers and millennials. It's quote sad. The world we be a much nicer place if older people could appreciate younger people rather than complaining about them. Ok, off my soap box.

It is a fact, however, that each adult generation means and groans about the younger generation.

Yeah, we disrespectful, whiny, spoiled Gen X losers are now bitching about the disrespectful, whiny, spoiled milennial losers. The milennials will have a field day with whatever their kids' generation is called.

4th Century BCE: “[Young people] are high-minded because they have not yet been humbled by life, nor have they experienced the force of circumstances."

1624: "… I find by sad Experience how the Towns and Streets are filled with lewd wicked Children, and many Children as they have played about the Streets have been heard to curse and swear and call one another Nick-names, and it would grieve ones Heart to hear what bawdy and filthy Communications proceeds from the Mouths of such…”

1790: "“The free access which many young people have to romances, novels, and plays has poisoned the mind and corrupted the morals of many a promising youth…”

1904: "“Never has youth been exposed to such dangers of both perversion and arrest as in our own land and day. Increasing urban life with its temptations, prematurities, sedentary occupations, and passive stimuli just when an active life is most needed, early emancipation and a lessening sense for both duty and discipline…”

and so it goes....

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 3:17 PM, June 25th (Tuesday)]

Coco. Not annoyed or defensive at all. We just disagree. We are also from different countries so maybe the area we are from

Differ greatly. No idea. I was just putting forth an opinion that I’ve heard from the amount of people I’ve heard this topic from including loads from the education system. The education system here would be different from yours.

Respect is earned. A person does not deserve respect simply because of their age. You earn respect through your behavior. If, as an older person, you disrespect a younger person, don't be surprised when they disrespect you back.

Respect is earned. But treating people respectfully should be an expectation in a civilized society.

I hate this idea of “if you disrespect me Ima disrespect you” it’s an immature argument. I treat people respectfully because of what it says about me as a person not because of what it says about them. Sure, there are lots of people for whom I have zero respect, and they deserve that opinion. But I treat all people in a respectful manner because that is the person I am. . If I don’t respect someone I don’t get to decide that that gives me a pass on being an asshole towards them. I just treat them politely and try my best to avoid dealing with them whenever possible.

Or at least that’s what I strive to do. I am not always 100% successful. But I think we would all do well to have that as our baseline goal at least.

HT

>>>>Heph-I have never heard that about students. Where did you learn that from?<<<<<

Can't remember. JUst one of those things you absorb along the wayl, I suppose. Was it a standard joke on campus when I was an undergrad? When social science majors were taking "An Introduction to Abnormal Psychology"?

Wikipedia has an entry on "medical student syndrome".

I hate this idea of “if you disrespect me Ima disrespect you” it’s an immature argument.

Well, we are talking about immature people. I not talking about just being rude. I'm talking about when an older person gets into a younger person's face and starts yelling at them and telling them everything that is wrong with the younger generation, then gets indignant when the younger person argues back and eventually tells them to fuck off. That confrontation wouldn't have happened if the older person hadn't lost his shit.

Also, it's not so much a revenge thing. It's more that they learn to treat others by how they are treated. So, if you treat a child disrespectfully, the child will learn that is the acceptable way to treat others. Like how children who are bullies are bullied at home by their parents a lot of the time.

deephurt, being in a different country/culture can definitely make a difference.

DD, exactly. We've been going to hell in a hand basket since the garden of eden.