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As to Thumosand the first and only piece, he was not his WWs first and only when they married. He knew this and it was not an issue for him, but that was premised on her being a faithful wife. I do perceive this is an issue now in his bundle of issues.

Correct - what can I say I’m an old fashioned guy. Probably not too many of me left around. A cave man you might even say. I obviously pair bond on hard mode.

[This message edited by Thumos at 7:07 PM, December 16th (Monday)]

His WW was in the upside down for a few months, but she came back and Thumos is okay with just forgetting about it. That is the deal she has on the table for him.

A stranger things reference is perfect. I’ve had a tiny bit of bourbon this evening. No I’m not okay with her being in the upside down and just pretending it didn’t happen. That’s a perfect way of redefining it

One last thing - I don’t disagree with the rugsweeping assertion but I still think that there has been effort on her part. I think thumos has thought that too. I have a hard time thinking I would be refusing a poly knowing that my h has made it clear that is an absolutely non negotiable. I feel my lack of resistance to that is because my h knows everything. So I hope you are right about her holding back. I think because she arranged the separate Christmas parties that year and a few other things that he mentioned would make it hard to believe her. In that instance you usually see the ws desperate to clear the air.

There has perhaps been effort on her part to "do things." But it's been a constant power struggle for her to actually admit wrongdoing. To recreate a genuine relationship. To do that she needs to yield the floor, throw herself on his mercy. Grace is not possible when the recipient is unwilling to accept it.

In that regard Thumos' WW has wasted three years of their lives.

In that regard Thumos' WW has wasted three years of their lives.

Agreed. Unbelievably she’s trying to cuddle up to to me tonight after telling me this afternoon she’d take my request for a poly under advisement.

I don’t think she realizes how far gone I am. It’s fucking tragic. I’m looking up divorce attorneys on my phone as I type this and will be getting in to see one as soon as I possibly can. Hopefully no later than Wednesday.

Striver- I don’t disagree at all. I only stated what I did in response to bftg saying there was no effort. I think there has been some effort albeit not enough or even the right kind.

However, personally, my gut is that shes not actually hiding any big reveal.

Sadly, BFTG and I have disagreed on this all along.

Striver- I don’t disagree at all. I only stated what I did in response to bftg saying there was no effort. I think there has been some effort albeit not enough or even the right kind.

I agree there has been effort, a lot actually. What it boils down to though is protecting the affair and her own self image at all costs. I don’t understand it. We had another long talk. I gave an A/B ultimatum. Do the polygraph or we divorce. She’s seems to be choosing divorce. It doesn’t make a lot of sense but that’s where she is so I’ll be seeing a divorce attorney this week.

This is my line in the sand. I’m not budging. It’s really not even the polygraph per se although it is important because it is the pressure point for real, authentic truthfulness. Or to be more accurate the polygraph is a pinnacle of many layers beneath. The polygraph and her refusal to do it are monumentally symbolic of so much else. And her refusal to do it tells me everything I need to know.

I will also take my own routine JFO advice and protect myself with a VAR on my person from this point forward.

It’s weird I’ve arrived at this juncture but I don’t feel as awful as I’d feared. I didn’t expect this. I admit I harbored this fantasy going into Christmas that we were going to be clear of this. I fully expected we would do the polygraph and I believed there was a good chance she might pass — and I actually was very confused about what I would do at that point. I had those stirrings and flutterings of hope that we were going to beat this thing together.

In some ways she’s giving me an easier path forward. We don’t have to twist ourselves in knots anymore, she doesn’t have to do a restitution letter or talk about the affair anymore. I’m sure it’s a relief for her in some ways.

I am “disappointed” that she’s turning out at the end of the day to be like so many other wayward spouses, I had hoped secretly that she was “unique” somehow and she was going to come through and be one of these remarkable people I read about here on SI. I guess she just doesn’t have it in her.

It’s sad but not as tragically sad as I thought I would feel. Strange. Maybe it hasn’t caught up with me yet, or maybe I’m way out in front of it and she just really sunk that final nail in the coffin.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:51 PM, December 16th (Monday)]

In that regard Thumos' WW has wasted three years of their lives.

She certainly wasted her own time but I don’t feel I wasted mine. Far from it. I mean damn I feel proud of what I’ve done and how hard I fought. I’m a traditionalist and I gave this everything in the face of a pretty horrific shitshow. Not the worst I’ve read on SI but pretty damn bad. I also got my daughter through high school with good ACT’s and good college prospects. I gave my son a lot of stability and his loving father as a constant presence in his life. By the age of 10 our essential personality has been formed, so I at least got him that far. Now I have to make sure he doesn’t drift academically or go the wrong way with a group of kids. I think and hope I can manage that. I’m apprehensive about the financial hit but fear is the mind killer and I’m surrounded by plastic crap and man toys I don’t need. I can make it just fine.

I don't think she believes you'll actually pull the trigger on D. When you do, don't be surprised to see her backtracking and caving to the poly. Also don't be surprised to get a pre-poly confession.

I don't think she believes you'll actually pull the trigger on D.

I agree. She bullied you into rug-sweeping and then shutting up about the A for 2+ years. As Thumos notes, at all times her paramount goal has been to avoid disclosing anything about the A to Thumos, saving face.

BSR, as to whether there is more to this iceberg than we see above the surface, perhaps you are right. The November weekend where she went out of her way to send a gratuitous group photo of the "girls night", that could easily have been a diversionary tactic. We do know -- because she has said as much to Thumos -- is that she strongly wishes she had never confessed even the one instance of sex to him. In other words, her fervent wish is that she had lied to Thumos more than she otherwise did.

I think many BSes will never grasp how far some WS are willing to go, not only to avoid admitting the truth to our BS, but to avoid facing it ourselves. We know we're ticking time bombs that can blow up and destroy our lives. We live in fear of discovery from outside forces, but we're also aware that our own guilt could make us, in a moment of "weakness," voluntarily trigger the explosion.

I got to a place (and it was not at all conscious, btw) where I saw myself as my own worst potential liability. There was no evidence for the things my BH wanted to know -- intimate details of the sex and my state of mind. No letters, no texts, no bills, nothing (unless BH wanted to call to ask OM directly, and by some miracle he was willing to discuss it). I held the keys, but I did not want them. I wanted safety. Rugsweeping is kinda safe, but you know what's really safe? Cutting off my own ability to spill the beans by forcing the memories right out of my own head. That throws the keys into the ocean so I can't ever be convinced to hand them over.

Your wife is trying to control this narrative with everything she's got. It looks like three years of successful avoidance made her believe she could ultimately skirt the polygraph. Honestly, Thumos, taking four more months to arrange it reinforced that belief. Yes, you have a tough work travel schedule, but if there had been a more conventional emergency like a cancer diagnosis, you wouldn't have said, "Okay, I'll take my kid for that MRI a few months from now when I can fit it in." You'd have been on the phone screaming that waiting two weeks was unacceptable. Waiting sends a message that the poly isn't a real priority, and that on some level, you aren't ready to face the truth either.

At one point, you said that you would be more likely to reconcile if she failed (because there would be a tiny seed of doubt about the process) than if she admitted she had lied for the last three years. That's why I asked if she reads here. I thought she might take you at your word, and go in and fail and blame it on faulty testing and hope that doubt would carry her through. Her ongoing resistance in the face of D says to me that she either still believes she can call your bluff and R without taking it, or she is more afraid of facing herself in the cold light of day than she is of you divorcing her.

I do mean this gently, but I think that you and she have something in common. Deep down, you both know there's a lot more "there" there. Deep down, you're both hoping that the other person will fold before you have to lay your cards on the table. Because facing each other is bad enough, but facing whether you really know yourself -- your own boundaries, values and limits to what you'll do or accept -- is the scariest work of all, IMO.

I can only speak to the concept of R as an observer. In my case, R was never attempted at all. However, it has been my observation that R works best if the BH and the WW create a forum in which they can freely, openly, and honestly discuss the A, mostly with the BH asking questions and the WW answering them. Countless examples here on SI underscore that the BH tends to ask the same questions over and over and over. A WW who wants to maximize the chance of succeeding in R has to be patient to answer those questions over and over and over. The point is that it takes a long time for the BH to be comfortable that he is getting the truth and the whole truth, but, even more, that his soul has fully grasped the magnitude of the betrayal itself and has reached a place of comfort that the couple's love can overcome the trauma.

Honestly, Thumos, taking four more months to arrange it reinforced that belief. Yes, you have a tough work travel schedule, but if there had been a more conventional emergency like a cancer diagnosis, you wouldn't have said, "Okay, I'll take my kid for that MRI a few months from now when I can fit it in." You'd have been on the phone screaming that waiting two weeks was unacceptable. Waiting sends a message that the poly isn't a real priority, and that on some level, you aren't ready to face the truth either.

This is absolutely true and I cop to it completely. Like I’ve said I got way too comfortable in a boiling point of limbo (not as tasty as gumbo).

The rest of your post is insightful as well.

But now I’m no longer willing to do this status quo thing where we dance around it. I want the truth.

In fairness BraveSirRobin a big chunk of this delay was caused by the shift over to agreeing to the timeline being provided to me in a formal disclosure session and then agreeing to wait for a polygraph until after that. I was being “reasonable” and that was my continuing mistake.

So we had to work with the calendars of four people and I was hip deep in travel season (and believe me the road schedule was hectic this fall). So it’s not as quite as simple as you lay out but your point is well taken. I do believe she thought she could skirt the poly - she’s admitted as much.

BFTG - I agree, the openness is very important. If I hadn't been here there would have been a lot I would have missed in regards to what I needed to do. That's why in some ways I can identify with WS who want to rugsweep.

But by coming here, I learned that I needed to keep bringing up the A in order for my H not to have to carry that burden. I needed to answer his questions as lovingly and as patiently as I could on the 100th time as I did on the first or second time. Without this site I would have had no road map, so I can understand how easy it is to be uninformed. To just try and step up your wife game and hope that you can create a happy life in which it overcomes the infidelity.

And I think it speaks of not realizing how infidelity is trauma, and how different it actually is instead of how it's portrayed. Not just in movies, but even when you know someone who is going through it but you aren't close enough to see the damage. On the outside, it looks like they just moved on. I am guessing Thumos tried to subscribe to that to a certain degree, but kept hitting a brick wall. It seems to me as he was angry and hitting the brick wall, his wife didn't understand that at all. She likely just kept stepping up her game to try and compensate, to try and get them on a good path again. She likely did so while still sensing his anger, which is why on that part I will give her *some* credit - it's a lot harder than it looks. I know from our earlier days that I always sensed his energy, and putting myself out there day after day was an act of vulnerability I was not well practiced at.

But, in essence, she can't understand that by not giving him the whole truth he can't heal. It has to be lanced and cleaned and treated. She doesn't see the way not knowing drives a wedge that she can never make up for by just trying to be a better wife. Her narrative of this is not hard to see - but if she had gone a route of being curious rather than feeling like she had it handled, she may have learned the steps that she really needed to take. Instead, it's been about protecting her image of herself, and trying to protect her image with him. And, it's maddening really, how so many WS do this. I know I was strongly tempted to do this. You think that there is going to be that one straw, so you want to just tell them the basics and keep as many straws away. It's distorted thinking. I was utterly convinced by all the stories of what not to do, and seeing so many BS say that the A was just part of it, but what happened after was the most damaging of all.

I can't help but to know and realize if I hadn't read here, I would have been conducting myself not all that differently than Thumos's wife. I think it's our inclination to want to control narratives and outcomes. I am completely stunned she has chosen divorce, but that only reinforces my belief that she's come to the end of the road of confessing anything further, and there was more to tell. Nothing else makes sense to me. If H had said even a year out "I want a poly" sure I would feel anxious - I could understand that aspect of it - but I certainly would do it. To outright refuse, is a bold move but I agree with the others she is banking on him not following through with it. She is under the illusion she is still holding the cards.

To outright refuse, is a bold move but I agree with the others she is banking on him not following through with it. She is under the illusion she is still holding the cards.

As Hikingout just stated, she does not believe you will pull the plug yet.

There is absolutely no justifiable reason for her not to take this polygraph other than she has not disclosed the truth.

she is banking on him not following through with it. She is under the illusion she is still holding the cards.

Well let’s be honest: I’ve certainly given her every inclination for her to believe she could string this along — with my own complicity in rugsweeping and in never forcing the issue of the poly for so long.

[This message edited by Thumos at 8:57 AM, December 17th (Tuesday)]

I am sure that's true as well Thumos, but again, I think that it goes along with noone really knows how to do this after it happens. I agree with you that not all the time was wasted in regards to keeping your family together. I personally think that you trying to hang in there and do what you have done deserves a hell of a lot of credit. You can't fault yourself for trying to be a stand up guy. You all were ill advised, and I am sure that you were doing the best you could with what you knew to do.

I am still hopeful I am wrong by the way. I wanted to see a happy ending here, I always want that. But, sometimes happy endings look differently than we think we will at first.

Proverbs 25:24

"It is better to dwell on the corner of a roof than to dwell with a contentious woman in a house of divisions."

(((thumos)))

I'm so sorry bud. I know how much you did not want D to be the outcome.

That being said - I am glad you aren't in as bad a place as you feared you would be. I think the R/D seesaw just hits a tipping point when fear of the unknown just isn't enough to keep you stuck anymore. You can rest easy knowing you tried everything that was in your power to save your M. Unfortunately, saving it takes two and your ww really never tried with you. And that is 100% on her.

Fingers crossed that your meeting with the lawyer goes well and that you are headed for peaceful calm waters.