SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It’s like the other poster said, there was no big picture plan. It’s always surviving the step she is on.

I also believe there is something she hasn’t told you and therefore the avoidance mixed with hope.

Remorse is a product of sitting down and understanding all the cuts and marks you have left on someone. She has kept herself locked into her fears with her dishonesty. She has not wanted to face herself or you due to shame, regret, guilt. She has just been trying to survive and get the outcome she wants which is to stay married to you. That isn’t ill intentioned necessarily. The methods just are not working. But she really has boxed herself into a corner here. Coming clean in whatever it is likely means divorce. Not coming clean likely means divorce. Her fear has kept her paralyzed.

You have gotten somewhat better, I can see that and I don’t know you. Another dday due to trickle truth truly might be insurmountable to you in moving forward. Her fears are not unjustified. My personal opinion is that there was sex twice, and it’s on the night that has been denied for all this time. I am not sure how to get her out of that corner she has placed herself in, if that is possible. Do you see a path? Could she come clean to you and you still consider moving forward? I ask that sincerely with no judgment. If I am her and divorce is inevitable looking from both paths, I would try to make a third path. Rug sweeping would be the most likely one.

HikingOut you write very well and it is abundantly clear you have take the time get it and do the work. You’ve been digging deep. You post all the time here at SI. Your words are insightful and gentle. They help me tremendously.

Unfortunately I think I may have made the mistake of taking your words and the words of other self aware WW’s and projecting them onto my wife — when In fact she hasn’t done the work and she doesn’t really get it l.

That is hopium in a nutshell

I’m understanding that now more. I really appreciate your insight.

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:24 AM, July 31st (Friday)]

If for some reason she reads your comments/advice on other threads, she'll be even more worried/fearful than she is just reading this thread.

HO, what you said echoes my thoughts, though I suspect there was more sex than just the two instances -- if you count groping, frottage, possibly some furtive moments of oral as "sex". What led me to that was the statement by Thumos, fairly recently, that his WW's playing house with the AP in the presence of his children, while he was gone, was so overt that even his older daughter presumed something was going on. That's a deep level of messed up to carry on with another man in front of your daughter to the degree that the daughter presumes things.

What kind of lesson does she think she taught her daughter about things like commitment and morality? Never mind simply picking men. "He made me feel like no man has ever made me feel." Even if her retroactive limiter on that ("I meant emotionally") was true, that's even worse in terms of example for the daughter. The man is objectively a loser. Lives off his dad's largesse while coasting through an unexamined life (though Thumos has never said this, he sounds like the type born on third base but spends his life congratulating himself for hitting a triple). Had an affair with a married woman and broke up their marriage. Then, after marrying her, insinuates himself into the marriage of some new "friends" for the express intent of having sex with that wife. Complete human scum, and in a way that was objectively visible particularly to your WW who owned the panties he was trying to get in. Yet, while you were out of town, she played house and carried on with him, temping him with the chance to get into those very panties, in the presence of your and her children. What parent does that? Even divorced people, if they are mindful of their role as parents, keep their kids separate from their paramours unless and until they are 100% certain of the integrity (which would never occur here because the AP fundamentally lacks integrity).

Hopefully the daughter is mature enough to view it as an example of failing as a mother, a pattern to avoid when she herself is a mother. "My mother taught me how not to be a mother."

That same messed up character would be the type who would paint herself into a corner as you describe.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 8:36 AM, August 3rd (Monday)]

If for some reason she reads your comments/advice on other threads, she'll be even more worried/fearful than she is just reading this thread.

She knows I have strong opinions about adultery now and what should be done. I've talked to her about advice I've given other betrayed spouses.

In any case, I don't feel I should have to censor myself.

EDIT: In fact on some occasions I've told her about this or that particularly painful situation in JFO that I hope is resolved so the betrayed can R or just move on.

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:33 AM, July 31st (Friday)]

Do you see a path? Could she come clean to you and you still consider moving forward?

I would never say never. I've stopped trying to make predictions about what I'll do. Ive made a number of predictions that simply haven't borne out.

I do feel very resolved that with the current situation and given the facts in front of me along with the long trajectory of words and deeds, it is difficult to see a way forward without divorce for my own peace of mind and for my health.

This is quite simply killing me slowly, or not so slowly. My physical health is paramount so that I can be a good father for my children. My mental health is alongside that. I have to live every single day in the home where this happened. I have to see the POSOM around town all the time (it just happened again yesterday and yes I triggered). And I'm living with the source of my pain and she can't bring herself to do the very real things that are necessary to help me heal.

The first thing I want out of life RIGHT NOW is to get out of the limbo of an infidelity situation. I know I will at least enjoy life somewhat more If I can get that single weight off my shoulders. I've done a tremendous amount of self-examination and thought and writing to get to this point.

One also hears all the time about couples torn asunder by infidelity that divorce and later remarried after the WS had truly done the work to root out what caused this and made themselves a safe life partner. Of course by then, the BH may have simply moved on with life.

But it would be great for her in any case if she could really figure out her whys, be fully transparent, stop trying to control the situation and look within herself to become a better person. That would be good for any human being, including me.

If she wants to tell me the truth, I say go for it. She's got nothing to lose. Just from a logical standpoint it's like Pascal's wager. Telling the truth is always the better option.

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:57 AM, July 31st (Friday)]

Really, what's different now? Has she spent time in therapy figuring out her issues? Has she done some serious soul searching introspection into her "why"? Has she given you the truth to what went down so you can make an informed decision based upon facts as to whether you want to attempt R or not? And I mean the unvarnished truth, the truth that makes her look like a complete piece of shit. The truth that's devoid of any blameshifting or victim-hood. Has she shored up her boundaries? Has she developed empathy and demonstrated sincere remorse at the pain she's caused in everyone's lives?

Sorry if I missed it, but did you address this?

I'm always very interested in this because I know what can happen if the above isn't occuring, or even if a small part is missing.

HardKnocks, I did:

In fact she hasn’t done the work and she doesn’t really get it l.

A more detailed version of that statement runs through this entire thread.

That said, here's a litle more detail:

1. She has spent time in therapy, both MC and IC. MC I felt was helpful on some fronts, hurtful on other fronts. IC was helpful, but I still don't feel she really dug deep.

2. The "whys" -- she says she is trying to do this. But I've kind of come around to a certain lady's viewpoint on this who for some odd reason we're not supposed to identify by name. She talks a lot of about stopping yourself from trying to "untangle the skein of their f*ckedupedness." Because ultimately, "the why" is that they did because they wanted to, an opportunity presented itself, and they decided to do it, it felt good to them when they did it, and they didn't think about you much when they did it, or if they did think about you it was only with some passing version of guilt and a helping of resentment. And it seems especially with women, for some reason they transfer their loyalty over to the AP during the affair. It's both complicated and not complicated, and I've reached the exhaustion point in thinking about it.

If she has some penetrating insights beyond that for me, I'll certainly listen. But I really think most of the time we need to stop probing for some secret enigma wrapped in a puzzle shrouded in a mystery.

3. She has given me a written timeline (well she read me a written timeline over the course of two hours last year) and she failed a polygraph. Getting her to actually write down the timelines and take the polygraph took a mountain of effort on my part, took a real psychic and physical toll on me and literally almost killed me -- or we should say it definitely was a catalyst in precipitating a health crisis that was scary as shit. I do not believe she has given a full accounting of the affair. Which is why I have arrived at the point where I think it best to look at a separation and work towards a mediated divorce.

4. Boundaries? I believe so, yes. Others may be skeptical. Only she knows for sure. I don't think she's whiteknuckling it. I think she's horrified and ashamed about what she did, and I very much doubt she would repeat it.

5. She has stopped with the blameshifting, but there are still flashes of DARVO and certainly minimization and justification. For example, back in December when I had finally had enough of the foot dragging on the polygraph, she blew up at me and said "you're going to blow up our family over this?!" My answer of course was that she had already done that and I was just trying to see if there was anything to salvage. The problem, I think you can see, is that this kind of thinking is very recent history -- not something that can be laid at the feet of "the fog" (which I don't believe is real in any case). She also did everything possible to try to sabotage the legitimacy of the polygraph.

6. Has she demonstrated remorse? I think there are flashes of remorse mixed with regret. She has talked to our oldest about the impact this has on me and what she feels she is trying to do to be a better wife. In truth, she has done quite a bit to show what kind of wife she will be going forward -- many of the commenters on this thread can attest to tangible things she has done and some have pointed out it's more than many BH's get (frankly that observation scared me a little on behalf of other BH's, since I've felt so often that I was settling -- and I wondered why they would possibly settle for less than I was getting).

7. She has had conversations with her mother and sister about it. As far as my family, they don't know. That was my choice. Our couples friends don't know. There were at least one or two of her friends that she tried to recruit into a narrative that I was being a paranoid, jealous husband back when the affair was going on. Those friends don't know either.

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:29 AM, July 31st (Friday)]

Thanks for the detailed response, Thumos.

Because ultimately, "the why" is that they did because they wanted to, an opportunity presented itself, and they decided to do it, it felt good to them when they did it, and they didn't think about you much when they did it, or if they did think about you it was only with some passing version of guilt and a helping of resentment.

.

Ultimately yes, but individual motivators are different. And I think every BS needs to know them, to see if they believe the WS can resolve them, or whether they are, in fact, dealbreakers. In any case the "how" ("OK; so that was the motivator but *how* did you let yourself do that?") is even more important. And I don't believe any former cheater is safe until they figure this out and take active steps to resolve and protect against that mental state. YMMV.

Sounds like your wife *has* made progress, which is good. But it can also make things harder, because at times it seems like enough. And then other times....

I hope you get whatever you need from her, but you've been waiting such a long time that it might also be that what you need comes from yourself. I'm wishing you peace, either way.

In any case, I don't feel I should have to censor myself.

Agreed. Please don't feel I was implying you should.

they did because they wanted to, an opportunity presented itself, and they decided to do it, it felt good to them when they did it,

I don't often come to Reconciliation thread, Thumos unless something catches my eye on the thread selection page. I thought I wanted to try to R if my expectation were met or exceeded. They weren't but I spent many months trying to show WW, give her instructions and lists of what I needed to attempt R. Wasted months.

I've come to the same conclusion you did in the above quote and I've presented it in posts on other threads. My XWW's adultery was with a COW. Perhaps it's more fitting there. I don't know. It boils down to opportunity knocked, it seemed exciting, she wanted to, she thought she would never get caught (maybe didn't think it would be an LTA) so she did it.

When I finally got the truth she replied to my accusation with "yeah, I did it". Cool as a cucumber. Maybe she thought enough time had past after the end of the PA. Maybe she thought I would be very angry for a while but she could ride it (high probability, IMO).

I hope you can come to terms with the decision you need to make regarding R or D. You know you can only successfully R with someone totally committed to do so and is fully open, transparent and fully remorseful. I don't think I should say anything more since this is in the Reconciliation forum.

A reformed WS is one that goes deep into their "why's" and goes beyond being opportunistic. One has to dig into why they dispensed with their integrity, purposely inflicted harm on those they purport to love and chose to lie and gaslight them. It typically boils down to a fundamental issue - inability to find value intrinsically and therefore get their value through the high of a false relationship that sees them as special and appealing.

I don't think a WS is safe in any relationship until such time that they dig deep and develop coping mechanisms to drive their behavior to a different trajectory.

Thumos - this:

but there are still flashes of DARVO and certainly minimization and justification.

This means she understands that she did something wrong and is sorry but not fully remorseful because she isn't being totally honest with herself. More IC for her until she gets there.

It is hard to balance the difference between having patience and compassion for someone we know is trying to repair damage and protecting ourselves. All of this happens while we work to repair our own trauma from these actions. You don't have to do anything you don't want to do and you may have to accept that this is iterative and a very long road while at the same time knowing the relationship you had together is gone.

Do you want to be with her? Do you want to work through this knowing it is a very long haul? Are you prepared to put different boundaries in place to make the change you need? And what is that change that you seek? Are you able to specifically articulate it?

The first thing I want out of life RIGHT NOW is to get out of the limbo of an infidelity situation.

That really confuses me. All you have to do is file and walk. You come down hard on other BSes for not acting quickly, but you seem to give yourself a pass for acting very slowly. I don't get that. What allows you to hold this double standard?

You've written about 3 problems. The first 2 are: 1) taking action vis a vis your M, 2) your immense pain.

These are separate problems. Solving one won't solve the other, though solving one will make it easier to solve the other.

IOW, if you end your self-imposed limbo, you'll still have the pain. Some of your statements say you expect your W to heal you. She can't. The pain is in you, and yours are the only actions that will give you relief. Holding on to your pain to give your W a chance to show remorse is not in your interests.

You can resolve your pain. I think you need help from a good therapist, but you can do it.

I suspect that the obstacle to your healing has to do with keeping control. If you really want what you say you want, then, I think you'll have to give up your fantasy that you can control the outcome of this mess. I also think you'll have to give up your fantasy that you can control your W. I could be wrong here, but those are my thoughts.

The 3rd problem you've written about is your physical health. I can't help thinking that making progress in solving the first 2 problems will help you there.

I'm very sorry you're in this fix so long after d-day. You're the only one who can get you out of it, though. I urge you to do it.

Ordinarily, I'd recommend choosing D or R. In light of the poly results, and since you believe your W is still lying, though, I recommend splitting - one simply can't R with a WS who continues to lie, IMO.

I agree with sisoon.

I think the problem you have is that there are things you want to do (stay married to your W, raise your children in a traditional two-parent family) and there are qualities you want to embody (integrity, moral consistency, alpha strength), and these two fundamental needs are at war within you, because you can't have both as long as your WW keeps lying to you. One of them has to bend to the power of the other. So far, your need to stay is stronger than your will to cut the cord, so you give uncompromising advice to other BHes that you do not follow yourself. Somewhere in there, you know this, and it's tearing you apart.

I'm going to put this as gently as possible: I recognize this conundrum because it is the way that waywards rationalize having an affair. I don't AT ALL mean that I think you would have one, because that requires moral turpitude that isn't in you. But the attempt to reconcile inconsistent thought patterns is familiar to me. WS often have a view of ourselves as loyal, faithful, and trustworthy, but we want to be involved with someone in a way that violates our fundamental moral code. Instead of admitting that our behavior is incompatible with our values, we make excuses and rewrite our lives so that what we're doing is consistent with who we believe we are. The pretzel logic -- like the deeply religious WW who told her BH that God wanted her and AP to be together -- is cognitive dissonance at its finest. When you say that you don't want to leave because of the kids... well, the overwhelming majority of BS here have kids. That doesn't stop you from telling other men to walk if they are treated the way you're being treated. I think you're in physical pain, trying to keep rationalizing ways to stay, embarrassed that you haven't already left.

I wish your WW would start posting here, Thumos. I truly don't think that acceptance and mercy are at odds with your moral code if she can stop lying to you. I was really glad to see you say, for the first time, that she should take a shot at the truth because you haven't ruled out forgiving her for things she hasn't yet admitted. I hope she takes you up on it. There are plenty of alpha types, men of integrity, here on SI who have chosen to forgive a truly remorseful WW. You love her, and there's no shame in that. But I have never seen anyone successfully reconcile with an unreformed liar. You will never get out of limbo if you don't get her to pass a polygraph, or finally file for divorce.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 12:57 AM, August 3rd (Monday)]

I read your stuff. It is good, insightful, mirrors my own feelings and experience with this shit to a large extent.

Sorry, I have not read this entire thread. But, I read enough to know that what you went through and continue to go through is the result of being married to a person who, fundamentally, is just not a decent human being. Pretty simplistic, eh?

Think about it( I am sure you have). Your wife did things and acted in ways that you or I cannot even conceive a good person doing.

Off the top of my head, she gaslit the hell out of you; was willing to watch you struggle with self doubt re your grasp on reality; was willing to have you medicated; resents your seeking help on forums; denigrated you to the OM; exposed your kids to the guy; and is invested in minimizing her affair as compared to others in an effort to both make herself feelmbetter and to make you feel like you are abnormally sensitive and an overreaction. I am sure I missed some stuff.

I know the kids are a consideration, of course. But you are, IMO, perfectly justified in getting yourself away from her. Nice that she put you in this position. I am sure she and her supporters will put the blame for this continuing to affect you this much on your limitations and deficiencies.

Thing is, like many of us, you cannot just will yourself into some lobotomized state where this does not eat at you

I would imagine that , unlike your wife, having sex with someone does hold a lot of significance to you. People are on a continuum as regards sex, with some feeling it is sacred and others viewing it as a mere pleasurable bodily experience, like taking a good dump or eating a good meal And, everything in between.

Your wife has shown you a basic incompatibility between you two in this area. As well, she has, not so subtly, attacked your capabilities in this area with her immaturity remark and her apparent contempt for what she perceives to be limited experience. A lot of people would value your avoidance of promiscuity. Not her, apparently.

Your wife has shown such contempt for you, such lack of respect that the mental gymnastics required to feel half way decent about staying seem monumental to me.

You are bright, in shape, successful, and were faithful. She places no value on these attributes.

Tonight — about four hours ago — I told my wife definitively that I want a divorce.

I came to this conclusion about a week ago

This weekend I had several dreams about divorce — not one of them bad and several good.

I felt good about telling her tonight and not sad. Not great, not joyous, but not sad and lighter than I have in a long time

the precipitating event tonight was my son had a zoom call with his friend the OM’s son. He came to tell me and said it was fun talking to him. I reacted as I usually do by saying that was great and glad they had a chance to talk.

And then he started asking for the thousandth time why his friend can never come over - and he said “I really want to know“

I was completely unprepared and said that his mom and I would both talk to him about it. I have a great relationship with my son.

I went back in our bedroom and told my wife in a polite and gentle tone that I no longer want to be placed in this position, it is completely confusing to him and now he’s at an age where we can’t paper over it.

And then without even thinking about it it just came out “and I want a divorce.”

What was her reaction and/or response?

That's a huge moment, and one I've never been through myself, so I won't pretend that I know what it feels like. However, based on reading your posts over the last year, I believe you've made the only healthy call you could for yourself under the existing circumstances.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 9:05 AM, August 4th (Tuesday)]

Thumos, you should be proud of yourself for this big step forward. I hope that your talk with your DS goes well and that hopefully he is able to keep some semblance of that friendship outside of your issues with your STBX. OM is a POS but that's not the kid's fault.

Bit of an update:

My posting is going to be limited this week. I have several projects coming to bear all at once.

I slept very soundly last night. I feel firm and good about my decision. Not overjoyed, because who would celebrate this? I don't. But I feel good. Not bad.

I believe some people may have misinterpreted both my tendency to have diarrhea of the keyboard and my delay as being indecisive. What you've really been reading is a mind at work processing and considering and weighing. The thing is, I tend to process and think through writing. I always have. I can write and write and write. And I do. I used to do it for a living. And I write for myself all the time.

I came here a year ago in desperate pain, posting and trying to figure out what do with what is without question the most momentous decision of my life, one that affects other people aside from myself in profound ways.

Maybe people sometimes mistake thoughtfulness and a careful precise process of reasoning for dithering. It's not. As far as the delay, I did keep outlining for folks my careful reasoning on this, and it hasn't changed. I think people for some reason mistook my delay during the heart scare and the pandemic lockdowns as excuses. All I can say is I wasn't about to add stress to my heart by initiating a divorce proceeding. And I'd have to be some real kind of shit bird to divorce someone (including a wayward spouse) with kids involved in the middle of a global pandemic that crashed the US economy.

Those were the facts on the ground this spring.

And I'm not getting divorced tomorrow. It takes awhile. I haven't even been to see an attorney yet, and I'm sure -- no, I KNOW -- the whole process is a big fat expensive headache that gives the Shakespearean line "first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" a new and poignant resonance. I do know that divorce is a goldmine for attorneys in America, and the billable hours are a thing of beauty for them. The more the process can be extended, the better for them.

I've never been divorced and I never gave it ANY thought at all before my WW's affair. It's a bit of a black box to me, but I'm about to become an expert in it, just like I've become an expert in what it's like to be a betrayed husband.

All that said, I feel very strongly this is the right thing to do. I am firm and resolved for the path forward and I feel good about it.

So here's an interesting detail: Had a busy and very enjoyable family weekend. Lots of fun activities with my extended family and my nuclear family. And at the same time, I also knew that I was going to tell her I wanted a divorce. I didn't know when until last night.

This weekend, I also had a number of dreams -- all of them about divorce. Not a single one of these was a bad dream. Not a single one. They were all neutral to positive. They were never "fantasy dreams" about how great it was going to be. Just a running theme that was resolved that it was the right thing to do. And that my burdens were easing dramatically. In one dream, I took a new job and my boss was an older woman, wise about the world. She learned of my situation and took me aside in the dream and firmly said, "I know you've been struggling. I need you to be effective. This is the right thing to do for your health and sanity. You know what to do."

I woke up feeling rested and refreshed after that dream.

I suppose the precipitating event last night was my youngest had a zoom call with his friend the OM’s child. I was working and my youngest came to tell me and said it was fun talking to said friend. And I said great and I was glad he got to do that. I can assume everyone here can think about what this is like, how triggering it is and how I only want the best for my son in spite of my own feelings.

And then he started asking for the thousandth time why his friend can never come over -- and he said “I really want to know." It was a very adult moment for him and right then and there I wanted to tell him exactly why, to level with him, to treat him with respect. I was completely unprepared and said that his mom and I would both talk to him about it. He said “so ____ can never come over?” And tears started welling up in his eyes. I said gently “no he can’t” and then he said “you’re being selfish.”

Dagger to the heart.

I have a great relationship with my son. He was upset and rightfully so in the moment, trying to process something that makes no sense with only the grid of a 10 year old to rely on. Spoiler alert: Later he and I sat on the couch together and watched a Marvel movie and he laid there with his head in my lap. He's a boy on the verge of becoming a man, trying to figure out the world.

When he said that me, in that moment right then I realized how my WW had just put me In this awful, untenable position -- no matter what regret she feels now. And that she simply hadn't done the work to address this and many other things we've discussed ad nauseam on this thread.

So a few moments later, I took my WW back in our bedroom and told her I no longer want to be placed in this position, it is completely confusing to our son, totally unfair to me, and now he’s at an age where we can’t paper over it.

And then without even thinking about it it just came out “and I want a divorce.” I didn't know I was going to say it until I said it.

As far as my WW's reaction to this, she was sad, resigned, cried. But there were no hysterics. No begging. We talked about the situation for awhile. She said it wasn't what she wanted, but she understood.

As I said, I slept like a baby last night. She didn't. I hope that doesn't make me sound cold. I'm not reveling in this. I just feel sure of what I'm doing.

This morning, she wanted to pray with me (if I can ask commenters here to refrain from speculating on the genuineness of this, I'd appreciate it). I do believe her renewed faith over the past year has been genuine, and I'm glad for her on this front.

Now, she also said some things this morning that only strengthened my resolve. It was nothing profound, just little niggling details that reveal she is still stuck in that "regret vs remorse" limbo that I no longer want to be a part of.

I know that many many people have been burned in the divorce process by a wayward spouse who already betrayed them. I'm not naive. I also know that there's a tendency to read things into a situation based on what an anonymous poster like myself has provided that just aren't accurate. I am watching and waiting to see how my WW reacts, what she does.

I am going to be cautiously optimistic that we can work it out without animosity and be good co-parents. I know it's not how everyone would do it, but I'm going to arrange for a family lawyer consult and ask her to go along with me. I want to be above board and amicable. It's the only way I know how to be. If it burns me, or if she turns hostile, so be it. I'll deal with it as it comes.

I'm resolved. I'm moving forward.

That's all for now. I'll be back later for sure.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:45 AM, August 4th (Tuesday)]