SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I also echo that I don’t believe you are trying to be seen any certain way. I have had people direct posts towards me like that in the past, and I am always like “are you kidding me?” Because it’s hard for either the person writing that to me to see all the self loathing I went through and how I now view myself in having had an affair. They see the remorse or any movement forward as something to hold up as either fake, with lack of remorse or whatever. I have learned a lot of times that is a projection thing from their own situation.

It’s interesting I stopped saying “my ap” kind of because so many bs’s seemed triggered about in on this site but h and I have diffferent ways if referring to him. I think it can be disassociation, but I do feel disassociated from the ap. When I talk about him I don’t picture him, I know what happened but I don’t often go to a place where Inreally drudge him up any more unless h is asking something he hasn’t asked in a long time or asking me to describe something that I have to think about more deeply. That isn’t all that often. I don’t know if that is healthy or not but it goes along with feeling indifferent towards him. I guess I am just asking is this similar to how you are about the ap? You seem to be more aware about the looking at something academically and it’s effects. I have not considered it much.

I'm getting very close to four years out. Here's the key for me.

There came a point in my therapy where I had to face me and peel all of those protective layers off and show myself to me and then to him.

The thing is, we already see you, the WS. I'd say for many BS's after year 1 comes a hard dose of reality and thus the walls, anger, rage and such. What bothered me for so long was the self-denial and all the while expecting me to "give in" and do better with my healing. That is gut wrenching.

All I ever wanted was for my WS to admit who he is since I already knew. Until that time, I was in grave danger and vulnerability not possible. I'd say that you can expect Mr. Walloped to behave somewhat similarly. While we all have needs, we cannot build true intimacy without complete honesty. And our bullsh*t meter is always running albeit changing from affair related behavior to vulnerability behavior. We detach, build walls, harbor anger all to save ourselves from getting hurt again.

If you can keep up with the honesty for yourself and translate that to honesty about yourself with him, a positive outcome may be in the cards. But I found that rushing it or thinking that it will happen at some particular gate is not a realistic goal. Constant work and effort to show change, real change, will work over time.

You two are building something new. Holding onto what you had IMHO is also not realistic. We all want it - the old passion and feelings and closeness we thought we had prior to infidelity. That is gone. What do each of you want now?

As is often the case, ISSF has some good insight, IMHO:

What bothered me for so long was the self-denial and all the while expecting me to "give in" and do better with my healing. That is gut wrenching....All I ever wanted was for my WS to admit who he is since I already knew. Until that time, I was in grave danger...

This is soooooo true. My sense of reading Mrs.W's posts is that she understands this and has worked at this well. I'm not her BH, but that's how it appears from my reading.

We detach, build walls, harbor anger all to save ourselves from getting hurt again.

yes. We can use all kinds of analogies, but to me it's the same. Our lizard brain warning of danger (whether it's a "trigger" or the anger or whatever), and that happens as a protective measure. And as I said in (I think) my 1st post on this thread, I wonder if the BS' protective walls ever come down completely (whether R or D)

Holding onto what you had IMHO is also not realistic. We all want it - the old passion and feelings and closeness we thought we had prior to infidelity. That is gone. What do each of you want now?

For me, and it may sound odd to others, this is the very kind of thing that brings the lizard brain out. IOW, when things start to feel like "what you had", lizard brain comes out and reminds me how that completely fucked me up. When I think about ISSF and DD and the walloped's being this far out, it causes me to wonder if it really does ever go away completely or if it's a matter of processing the completely new relationship & reality? Just some observations. This thread has been really thought provoking for me, so thanks.

Here are my thoughts on this.

When I think about ISSF and DD and the walloped's being this far out, it causes me to wonder if it really does ever go away completely or if it's a matter of processing the completely new relationship & reality?

I think it can once it is replaced with the new. What I am finding this far out is the iterative process for BS and WS alike. We go back to what we had because it is what we know. The best analogy I can give is the bomb going off destroying our home. If we find a picture partially intact, even if it wasn't our favorite, we will take it and bring it with us because it represents the house we had before the destruction. In the same way we go back to the relationship we had, the passion we had but that came with the illusion we were under at that time. Without the masks of the past we can no longer be there IMHO.

But we can build something new provided each party does the work and then we come together differently, the way we need to now. I think that's what Mr. Walloped is likely working through and as you say GMC, Mrs. Walloped is being real about herself and that is good.

For me, the sense of being real about himself has allowed me to stop the hypervigilance. It hasn't stopped the boundaries I need to be in a relationship with him. So that means I'm not yet at the point where I'm trusting this new version of him. And bringing this around to this post, I don't know where Mr. Walloped is right now. It could be the same for him.

I guess I am just asking is this similar to how you are about the ap?

I feel meh about him. It’s been that way for a while. I don’t think about him unless someone brings him up here on SI or if it’s a conversation with my husband. I don’t hate him, but I think he’s a horrible person with low morals and I feel icky having been with him. I lost any positive feelings for him pretty early after DDay. Maybe it’s because I found out he was really married even though he told me he was divorced. Maybe because I found out I was just another feather in his cap. I guess I just don’t care about him or what happens in his life one way or the other. He has nothing to do with me and has no place in my life, my head, and certainly not my heart.

You two are building something new. Holding onto what you had IMHO is also not realistic. We all want it - the old passion and feelings and closeness we thought we had prior to infidelity. That is gone. What do each of you want now?

We understand this, but since we’ve been together for so long, it’s hard not to think of our relationship for so many years as something to try to get back to. In MC our therapist called it anchoring and that our frame of reference for our new M was our old M and how that was a mistake because for my part I wasn’t an authentic person. I was a people pleaser and had very low self esteem which I didn’t communicate. In our new M, we want to be honest and open with each other, an M built on love and respect with constant communication. We want to be true to ourselves and each other. It’s much easier to say than it is to do, especially with my A causing so much distrust and pain.

So that means I'm not yet at the point where I'm trusting this new version of him. And bringing this around to this post, I don't know where Mr. Walloped is right now. It could be the same for him.

I don’t want to speak for him really, but there are different levels of trust. Does he trust that I won’t betray him again? I can definitely say that he does. Does he trust me enough to be totally vulnerable with me and share all his thoughts and fears and hurt? No. If he did, I wouldn’t have posted this thread to begin with.

Does he trust me enough to be totally vulnerable with me and share all his thoughts and fears and hurt?

As a BS, this is the biggest blocker and one that I wonder if some of us can ever get past. You and Walloped are similar to me and my WH in that your history is long. My WH and I have friends that we share going back to elementary school, and have known each other since high school. I was, until the affair, the only person he had ever been intimate with - beyond second base really. If I recall correctly, you and Walloped were each other's only until the affair.

This loss of "special" has been my biggest blocker. I loved telling our story, I loved that our sex life was special and that there was things about him that only I knew. After the A, I felt like our history was erased, and that everything I held dear, everything that felt special? Meant nothing to him. And if I'm honest, it didn't. I'm having to admit to myself, and he to himself, that he never loved me the way I thought he had. He never loved himself. He never showed me who he truly was, only what he thought I wanted to see. It's been incredibly hard to see the while there was many good times, and we have beautiful children, our marriage pre-A was built on lies. All of it.

Now, he is trying to do the work. We are only 5 months past DDay2 (I learned of the A 2.5 years ago but he just confessed sex 5 months ago). Today, he is a man that if I met, I would love to hold his hand, want to get to know, and want to be close to. But this NEW man in my house is also the same man who betrayed me and although I want more than anything to build something new, my brain knows that the old man exists under there somewhere. And tells me that I'm an idiot to forget that. I'd imagine Walloped is the same. I'd guess he doesn't like those thoughts and feelings either and has them so often that it's almost annoying to say them out loud, because he doesn't know how to change them so why dwell on that? I wish with my whole heart that I could just let those walls come down and be present in the moment. Because I think I miss out on a lot of great moments due to fear.

I think MC will be great for y'all to start again. I think if you continue to ask him to talk and get him to share, that will be good too. And I hope that time will help you both heal too. I know we think 4 years is long enough, but I have a feeling that this whole recovery, restoration and reconciliation stuff will be something we work on for the rest of our lives. And I think that there's a lot of hope for the two of you since you both want the same outcome.

I lost any positive feelings for him pretty early after DDay. Maybe it’s because I found out he was really married even though he told me he was divorced. Maybe because I found out I was just another feather in his cap

Would this not be better?

I lost any positive feelings for him pretty early after DDay. Maybe it’s because I found out he was really married even though he told me he was divorced. Maybe because I found out I was just another feather in his cap.

But of course I now realise that even then my thinking was still wayward and that any positive feelings I had towards the OM should have ended immediately on DDay when I saw the impact of my affair on my husband but sadly that is rarely the case in an affair.

Mrs Walloped

I lost any positive feelings for him pretty early after DDay. Maybe it’s because I found out he was really married even though he told me he was divorced. Maybe because I found out I was just another feather in his cap.

Obviously, only Mr Walloped knows for sure, but I think there is a possibility that your actions RIGHT after D Day and until you found out about the truth about OM is what he might be having such a hard time getting rid of. He might still be troubled by the what would have happened if what Om told you was true and he was totally available.

You obviously did not have this distaste for OM then. I wonder if Mr. Walloped thinks it all would have played out the same???

Only he can answer that.

I asked if we could sit down and talk (and I told him that Unhinged said he should shut up and listen).

You know... I'm truly curious to know how that went over? (Even if you only paraphrased rather than quoted me verbatim ).

I'm sure that conversation was difficult for both of you. I'm sure future conversations like that one will also be difficult. Hopefully, the more often these conversations happen the easier they will become, for both of you. I know that for my wife and I, understanding one another is far, far better than living with false or inaccurate assumptions (especially ones based upon anger or fear).

Intimacy isn't just about being close, sharing thoughts and feelings, and being all lovey-dovey. It's also about understanding and observing one another. You know, it's about paying attention (an act of love in and of itself).

As for your H's healing... as much as I'd love to comment on that, I think I'll leaving it up to him if wants to chat about it on SI.

Keep on trying to rebuild that intimacy, MrsWalloped. One baby-step at a time, if necessary.

He might still be troubled by the what would have happened if what Om told you was true and he was totally available.

You obviously did not have this distaste for OM then. I wonder if Mr. Walloped thinks it all would have played out the same???

Only he can answer that.

No, I can answer that too. I had no intention of leaving my husband during my A and took a polygraph to affirm that.

You know... I'm truly curious to know how that went over? (Even if you only paraphrased rather than quoted me verbatim ).

Unhinged - I actually said those words. I told him you said he had to sit down, shut up and listen. To be honest, he bristled at first, and then sighed and mumbled something, and then he did! I was surprised. I don’t know why. Wait.

Okay, just asked. He said at first he was slightly annoyed at the butting in and that’s what he mumbled about but he realized that I had the right to ask for advice too and that if you said he should then he probably was doing the wrong thing and it needed to be said.

It's also about understanding and observing one another. You know, it's about paying attention (an act of love in and of itself).

Yes. Absolutely.

Okay, sometimes one can be too subtle, so the point of my last post was probably missed entirely. Sorry.

What I was trying to say is that if I were your BS I would be unhappy if the only reason you lost your positive feelings toward the OM was because you found out that he was a POS liar and that you were just another notch on his bedpost as it were. I am not saying that was wrong at the time as it was a natural reaction to the events that unfolded.

All I am suggesting is that the way you put it now seems to indicate that that was indeed the only reason, even in hindsight. Would it not have been better to then add that even if he had not played you and lied to you, the fact that he was prepared to enter into a relationship with a married woman made him a POS by definition and that this is the main criteria in not having any positive feelings for him now.

Sorry if I seem pedantic but your failure to cover this is somewhat worrying to me. It sort of implies that if he had been a single man and was not a player with other women then you would still have positive feelings for him. Methinks that is not what you meant at all. Well I hope not…

This is basically is a mirror image of what his wife said to you over the phone. He may not have been married but you were. I had hoped that’s why you were so upset that day and not because you just found out who he really was.

In terms of leaving your husband, I think no one would argue that you had any intention of doing so at the time. The worry I would have as a BS would be that the incremental progression of the affair may have led to that eventuality.

He went from him being a charity colleague, to a regular acquaintance, to a platonic friend, to a very close friend, to an emotional companion, to a physical partner, to a regular lover.

Each incremental step led to the next in the hierarchy of this ongoing relationship. Why would it not go further as your ties to each other deepened? Your break-up was not voluntary; it was forced on you and it seemed, that at the time, the loss of the OM and the subsequent discovery of who he really was, was more traumatic to you than the impact on your husband.

You admitted to Walloped that you would have allowed him in the marital home if he had asked. That would have been a huge step in the progression of your affair and may well have been a deal-breaker for your husband. So why would he believe another few steps were not possible?

I’m not trying to have a dig or to hurt you but to make you aware of the machinations of the male psyche. So I am just saying that your husband may well have those very same thoughts and that it would be worth exploring these with him as part of your current process of exploring and strengthening your relationship and hopefully reconciliation. No stone unturned dot dot dot

What I was trying to say is that if I were your BS I would be unhappy if the only reason you lost your positive feelings toward the OM was because you found out that he was a POS liar and that you were just another notch on his bedpost as it were.

I don’t think I ever said that this was the only reason. It would be strange if I did because it wasn’t.

All I am suggesting is that the way you put it now seems to indicate that that was indeed the only reason, even in hindsight.

Why? Because I write quickly and don’t give an entire train of thought and history when I write something? I totally understand the idea of looking through what a WS writes as a way to see if there’s Wayward behavior and stuff and I am open to that but sometimes context and history matter.

Would it not have been better to then add that even if he had not played you and lied to you, the fact that he was prepared to enter into a relationship with a married woman made him a POS by definition and that this is the main criteria in not having any positive feelings for him now.

I wasn’t listing criteria. I simply said how I felt and then was musing about different factors without listing all of the factors.

Sorry if I seem pedantic but your failure to cover this is somewhat worrying to me.

I appreciate that. It’s very kind of you to worry about me.

It sort of implies that if he had been a single man and was not a player with other women then you would still have positive feelings for him.

I understand why you would think that but no.

This is basically is a mirror image of what his wife said to you over the phone. He may not have been married but you were. I had hoped that’s why you were so upset that day and not because you just found out who he really was.

Neither actually. My main thought was selfish. I really only considered me and my life and what was going to happen to me. I didn’t think about my husband or what I did to him at all.

Okay, I don’t know how this is going to sound but you’re referencing a specific conversation like you’re reading up from notes. For me it’s a memory of a traumatic experience. I’m not whining about it at all and of course I caused it but it doesn’t lessen the shock and hysterics I was in during those days. It’s not like my memory says on Tuesday this is what I thought and these are the conversations I had and when I said this I felt that but on Wednesday I said this other thing and did that thing. It’s one big mush.

Anyway going back to my feelings. I really only cared about me and the destruction of my life. I didn’t care about why’s or the AP or my husband. Finding out he was married was just another shock on top of the shock I was already going through and just added to my worry about me and knowing I was going to lose my husband and my family.

In terms of leaving your husband, I think no one would argue that you had any intention of doing so at the time. The worry I would have as a BS would be that the incremental progression of the affair may have led to that eventuality.

I understand that. Thankfully my husband doesn’t share that concern.

Each incremental step led to the next in the hierarchy of this ongoing relationship. Why would it not go further as your ties to each other deepened?

Because I was not looking to leave my husband or family. It wasn’t that type of A and it wasn’t the type of relationship you are suggesting. I was not looking for a replacement husband and I wasn’t interested in a new commitment. It was a fantasy land A and leaving my family to start a new life with the AP would have an brought the real world into my fantasy.

Your break-up was not voluntary; it was forced on you and it seemed, that at the time, the loss of the OM and the subsequent discovery of who he really was, was more traumatic to you than the impact on your husband.

Almost everything was more traumatic to me than the impact on my husband at that time. I’m not sure how to say it any clearer. I was a colossal selfish bitch. I don’t know why you think it would be normal for me after being confronted by my husband and basically seeing my life crash around me and really still in the A at that point that I would all of a sudden be primarily concerned about my husband and not about me and my life? It sounds noble and wonderful but it’s totally unrealistic.

You admitted to Walloped that you would have allowed him in the marital home if he had asked. That would have been a huge step in the progression of your affair and may well have been a deal-breaker for your husband. So why would he believe another few steps were not possible?

See what I mean about reading from notes? How do you even know that??? I don’t recall saying I would have. I remember my husband asked me about that topic and I gave an answer that made me look less monster-ish which wasn’t honest and then I told him that I really don’t know what I would have done and that I might have said no but truthfully I might have said yes but he thankfully never ask me.

I’m not trying to have a dig or to hurt you

I didn’t get that impression.

but to make you aware of the machinations of the male psyche.

To be totally honest I don’t care about the male psyche. I only care about my husband’s. Thanks.

He went from him being a charity colleague, to a regular acquaintance, to a platonic friend, to a very close friend, to an emotional companion, to a physical partner, to a regular lover. Each incremental step led to the next in the hierarchy of this ongoing relationship. Why would it not go further as your ties to each other deepened?

This was/is a fear of my BH, for sure, even though I voluntarily ended my A. I cut it off when I did for practical reasons, as the OM was moving away. One of the ways I justified the A to myself in the first place was that I knew that his departure would make it self-limiting. I was never looking for an exit affair.

BH believes me that I never contemplated leaving him, that I was a typical cake eater. What he doesn't know, will never know, and has to come to terms with, is the uncertainty of what one more month would have meant. As SorrowfulMoon described, each stage of my A led from the prior stage. I would bend a new boundary, retreat a little, and then accept the broken boundary as the new status quo. It was always easier to let something happen again than it was to cross that boundary the first time. So although I deliberately consented to one night of sex close to the end of the A, isn't it reasonable to assume that I would have done it again if the OM had had enough time to work on it? Or even, eventually, have given into his subtle but ongoing campaign to make me choose him instead?

My BH was traumatized by my refusal to go NC after the A. The way I saw it, the A was over -- a line in the sand, then vs. now, and so he and I could safely be friends. I did not intend to cheat again, and I stuck to that. But how was BH supposed to believe me? What rational person would? OM wanted things to resume, and many, many times before, what OM wanted trumped what I had said I would never do, what I believed I would never do. And so BH is left permanently with that ache: if there had been more time, what else would I have done? Especially since I TTd him, and he didn't even know the half of my transgressions, both emotionally and physically, until much later.

None of this is to say that SM is right and you are wrong, Mrs. W. You know your own marriage. I'm just chiming in to relate that what SM wrote was dead on in my case. It's "for the record" that a BH can indeed react this way. I know you aren't really interested in what other BHs think, but there are other readers on the thread, so I hope it's ok to post it. It's not meant as a challenge to you.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 10:17 AM, October 16th (Wednesday)]

It's "for the record" that a BH can indeed react this way. I know you aren't really interested in what other BHs think, but there are other readers on the thread, so I hope it's ok to post it. It's not meant as a challenge to you.

BraveSirRobin - It totally makes sense to think that way and I understand why. I didn’t look at your post as a challenge at all. I just meant that it wasn’t my thought process during my A, after it, and not just that but the thought of leaving my husband and family for the AP would have totally ruined the fantasy of my A. My A was all about two little neat boxes. The A here and my real life there. So it just didn’t apply to my situation and my husband believes me on that and I took a polygraph about it too.

I also realize that my last statement to SorrowfulMoon came across as harsh. I didn’t mean it to. It’s not that I don’t care what other BH’s think. It’s that if another BH thinks and feels about something I did or said that’s different then what my BH thinks and feels then only my BH’s feelings and thoughts matter to me about that topic and about how I would do something about it. I wouldn’t change how I’d say something or what I’d do because another BH might feel a certain way about it if my BH felt the opposite. My main focus is is my BH. SorrowfulMoon was mentioning something that really wasn’t applicable to me or to my BH because that’s what other BH’s think or it’s the male psyche. But my BH doesn’t think that way so it’s nice to know I guess, but it didn’t apply to me. I was just short in how I said it and I could have been nicer in how I said it.

I also realize that my last statement to SorrowfulMoon came across as harsh. I didn’t mean it to. It’s not that I don’t care what other BH’s think. It’s that if another BH thinks and feels about something I did or said that’s different then what my BH thinks and feels then only my BH’s feelings and thoughts matter to me about that topic and about how I would do something about it. I wouldn’t change how I’d say something or what I’d do because another BH might feel a certain way about it if my BH felt the opposite. My main focus is is my BH. SorrowfulMoon was mentioning something that really wasn’t applicable to me or to my BH because that’s what other BH’s think or it’s the male psyche. But my BH doesn’t think that way so it’s nice to know I guess, but it didn’t apply to me. I was just short in how I said it and I could have been nicer in how I said it

I could identify a lot with the post you gave back to sorrowful mate.

I identify a lot also with what you said here. My H really sounds like many of the BW's on this site moreso than the BH's. Not that he is feminine, in fact there is nothing feminine about him in all reality, but his issues and the way he analyzes it sound more like that then the men on this site talking about "male psyche".

It's impossible for us to restate every single thing in every post. And, there are people who are new to this site all the time (not that Sorrowful Mate is new).

I am glad you clarified though, I raised a bit of an eyebrow myself by the last line that it came out sounding defensive. But, in another way, I knew where it was coming from as well.

I'm glad I wasn't threadjacking. And like you, I really, truly never wanted to leave my BH. I know that assertion gets under the skin of most BS, because obviously, I was doing things that I knew were putting my relationship at risk. That's why I lied and hid them. But I still believe you on that point, right down to my bones, because that was me, too, stubbornly refusing to see what was right in front of me, because to do so would mean my whole world would crash. I'd have to give up the rush, the validation, the view of myself as young and sexy and desirable, and exchange it for devastation, self-loathing and the destruction of my future. That's why it's so rare on here for a WS to come clean of their own accord. BS ask all the time, "How could you lie like that?" Once the deed is done, most WS ask themselves, "How could I tell the truth?"

I am the unusual WS who did end the A, come out of the fog enough to see that I had to confess, did so (minimized), and stayed faithful despite ongoing overtures from the OM. And yet, that doesn't fix the fear of "what might have been" for my BH. He can believe I mean what I say about never wanting a future with OM and still be afraid that my intentions could have been ultimately meaningless. That was the trigger he lived with for months after the A ended -- "What if, once again, she goes against everything she believes?" Seeing me confront my whys helps with that now, but it doesn't erase the scars.

At 30 years out, I think my BH feels reasonably safe that I'm not going to walk into the OM's web again, but my ability to "think wayward" still leaves a lot of insecurities. There's point 1 -- can he believe what I told him? But equally, perhaps even more disturbingly, there's point 2 -- can he believe what I'm telling myself? Because that's a question that affects both his past and his future, and he can't rely on me to answer it. My capacity for self-deception makes me totally useless in that struggle, and that's a permanently frightening quality in a life partner.

I am glad you clarified though, I raised a bit of an eyebrow myself by the last line that it came out sounding defensive. But, in another way, I knew where it was coming from as well.

I know it did. I was just impatient I guess and really didn’t mean to sound defensive or snippy.

On SI I’m late to my husband’s party. I understand that and accept it. But sometimes I get challenged on something that my husband said I did or said and it’s as if the way he said it is Gospel and people treat it like a legal document and use that to question something I say. I’ve always said that I don’t mind answering anyone’s questions about our story and that’s true. I don’t mind and if someone finds it helpful in their healing our understanding then I’m grateful to have the chance to help. But it’s different when someone uses that as a way to challenge me on something I said about a totally different topic. I read my husbands threads but I don’t have them committed to memory and it’s my life through my perspective and his threads are his life through his perspective. I don’t know if I’m explaining it well.

Anyway, I need to do a better job at having more patience when I post.

Yes you're explaining it well.

It does get annoying when some treat this as an interrogation on CSI.

(By the way learn the Tango).

I haven't read all the posts on this thread, but as a betrayed spouse myself, I know that my own sense of emotional intimacy with my fWW is directly proportional to her empathy and how much she is in synch with me emotinally whenever I want or need her to be (which is REALLY OFTEN, I might add).

Part of the problem that we have run into is that most or all WS's appear (to me at least) to have a remarkable deficit in the empathy and compassion and emotional-compassion synch departments in the first damn place where their spouses are concerned during the time of an adulterous betrayal, at least.

Part of earning the "f" in the acronym fWW from my own standpoint with my own fWW has to do with her actually growing the hell up beyond embracing that empathy-handicapped disability parking and blindness of hers & her FOO... into actually having a REAL connection with me that I don't have to do the 3 R's (readin, ritin, and rithmetic) of kindergarten and grade school just to remind her how to spell "cat" and do the ABC's and 123's all the time to make sure that she still is worthy of her grade school "diploma" in empathy and common sense that I very mistakenly thought she had mastered long before we both said vows together before God and man.

For me, it's kinda dangerous to be emotionally vulnerable with a woman who has had all the the emotional maturity of a demanding or entitled 5 year old or "tween" aged pampered and spoiled rotten brat for several decades running.

The Scriptures say that it's not wise to give honor to a fool and frankly that's about how I have felt many times when I've opened up very honestly and been vulnerable to my WW only to find that she just threw all of those precious gems down on the floor to play marbles with or to turn up her self appointed armchair appraiser nose at in disdain or dismissal as unworthy of her serious respect or consideration.

When she has humbled herself in her own proud, selfish heart enough to actually CONNECT with mine without me having to show her all of my cards...when she can actually read the hand of cards that I am holding just by looking across the table and really knowing me and my countenance and my wiring enough without me actually having to outright lay all of them out and down on the table...and when she can still respect me and my feelings and the miserable hand of cards that I happen to have the misfortune of having to deal & reckon with...

Then THAT'S when real intimacy happens and grows between us.

And that's when I feel relatively safe having her right close beside me at the poker table looking at what cards I am keeping close to my breast. Because I know she respects me and the costs and risks involved with enough gravity and selflessness to represent my interests in the game and gamble with the same sense of "fears and awes" and sharing in the potential losses and gains of fortune as though it's her own feelings and emotions and investment and risks that are being taken and not just those of some poor schmuck she has to go home with.

That was after all the kind of "oneness" and "for richer or poorer" and soulmate deal I was signing up for in the FIRST place when we said our vows together, really...

[This message edited by Cephastion at 1:18 PM, October 16th (Wednesday)]

Mrs. Walloped,

I respectfully think you should read SorrowfulMoon’s post again with an open mind. I have followed your story and that of your husband’s from the beginning. My thoughts on your opinion of the AP after discovery are very similar to SorrowfulMoon’s. As a man, I don’t think I could recover if my wife thought as you did about her AP.