SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

@BFTG - Thanks for your commiseration and empathy. It's ironic that I find myself constantly yearning for what happened to you - I wish over and over my wife just broke up with me back then. I would trade a few messed up years in my early 20s for a more clear, less painful rest-of-my-life, which is what I feel stuck with now.

There is a difference, which is that my WXGF is not your WW. From what you describe about your WW and who she has become, I'm pretty sure my WXGF did not have the capacity to ever go there and become that good, loving partner. I played the "pick-me dance" big time when she first told me she was leaving me for another man. Begged her to stay. Begged her to come back, multiple times, in that first year, even after we separated.

In hindsight, had we stayed together, I'm certain her infidelity at that stage would have been just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the crap she would throw my way through the years. So, I have learned to be grateful for what she did, because I'm pretty sure my present-day reality would really suck had we stayed together.

Your fundamental conundrum is that your present-day reality, in terms of day-in, day-out interaction with your WW, is good. Possibly better than most married couples at your stage.

No need for you to feel humiliated for her broken behavior -- none of that reflects on who you are.

If only that came easier to me. I've always defined myself in large part as "us", we were together from such a young age it's a huge part of my identity, so it's hard/impossible for me to see her behavior as not reflecting on me in some way. Part of the issue is that I used her to pacify my own insecurities in a very superficial way - "I have a hot/cool/fun girlfriend, therefor I have value". Her behavior then makes me think the opposite, and confirms my insecurities - "You had a girlfriend that was too hot/cool/fun for you, you are not cool/hot/fun, so of course she did those things".

And for me, the determining factor is -- was that behavior truly out of character or a greater reveal about who you're with?

In that sense, if you're not sure, I can see why the anger is hanging on, because you don't feel 'good' about the future. But if she really is changing, really a better person now, then you do have a chance to build something better. Of course, you're under no obligation to offer this final chance.

It will come to whether or not you can see who she is now versus being haunted by who she was.

I struggle with this because on one hand I know she is not that person anymore and is genuinely disgusted by a lot of the ways she acted. On the other hand, as I have documented elsewhere, she continues to act in impulsive/reckless ways, just in a much more subdued way, but it still makes me nervous and mistrusting. I.e., sending a flirty text to our babysitter, going for a walk with her COW, etc. She now has the peace of mind to disclose these things and want to change them rather than hide them, but it scares me that she still does things like that. It makes me think it's a built-in feature of "who she is" that isn't going away, that it can only be managed, and often managed poorly.

@BFTG

In hindsight, had we stayed together, I'm certain her infidelity at that stage would have been just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the crap she would throw my way through the years. So, I have learned to be grateful for what she did, because I'm pretty sure my present-day reality would really suck had we stayed together.

If I had known what my WW did back then and left her, I would surely, 100%, without a doubt harbor the same thoughts about her as you do about your XWGF. If I had shown up here at 21 years old and my story was "my girlfriend had an affair," or even at 26 and the story was "my fiancee spent a day drinking and smoking with a random guy overseas", the advice would be unanimous - get out, leave, you're lucky she showed you who she is before you married her, etc.

It's a big part of the mindfuck for me - everything about her behavior back then screams "run, don't walk, away" and I feel certain that if I knew the whole truth, I would have. And if I did, then in the present I could make up whatever story about who she is that I want, and I could feel satisfied that no matter how my life turned it, it must have turned out better for her not being in it.

But that didn't happen, she hid it away and pretended to be someone she wasn't, faked it till she made it, and now I'm stuck reviewing my history and trying to make sense of it and trying to figure out what pieces of her I can trust, which parts of her are real, and who she is deep down and who I am to her deep down.

If only that came easier to me.

It wasn't easy!

It was extremely difficult to separate the facts of what happened from my emotions and my perceptions of what I thought my marriage was.

I think I reminded myself enough times, plus caught a 2X4 from a member or two here when I was trying to blame myself for any part of my wife's shitty choices.

My wife betrayed her own values and self interests -- and might have done that whether I ever met her or not.

I've always defined myself in large part as "us", we were together from such a young age it's a huge part of my identity, so it's hard/impossible for me to see her behavior as not reflecting on me in some way.

Early on, I may have written that exact paragraph.

We've been together since we were kids. It's that certainty -- that we both had that infidelity is something that happens to other people, not us -- that certainty was lost, and that alone, haunted me into depression.

But the fact is, she didn't do what she did because YOU were less, it was because she was missing something, and feeling less about herself.

On the other hand, as I have documented elsewhere, she continues to act in impulsive/reckless ways, just in a much more subdued way, but it still makes me nervous and mistrusting.

And this is why that anger is still at such a high level.

This is where her focus should be today, trying to understand why she seems to need validation from sources outside of your relationship and trying to hammer that shit down. If she can't, you'll continue to feel unsafe.

Based on the experience here at home, it is possible for my wife to be the happy, gregarious, outgoing co-worker without flirting and crossing boundaries. It takes work to course correct dangerous behavior, but it can be done.

I've always defined myself in large part as "us", we were together from such a young age it's a huge part of my identity, so it's hard/impossible for me to see her behavior as not reflecting on me in some way. Part of the issue is that I used her to pacify my own insecurities in a very superficial way - "I have a hot/cool/fun girlfriend, therefor I have value". Her behavior then makes me think the opposite, and confirms my insecurities - "You had a girlfriend that was too hot/cool/fun for you, you are not cool/hot/fun, so of course she did those things".

Everything you say resonates. You have my utmost sympathy.

However, if you flip the coin as it were, why did she stay with you? She was hot and confident in her own ability to attract other men. She must have stayed for a reason. Perhaps it was because you do have value.

Her behavior is about her, not you. She wanted to be with you. Yes she was a cake-eater throughout most of your relationship but that was again about her not you.

She wanted to still be with you when she was spreading her wild oats, when she was flirting before and after the marriage and now when she has realised what a shitty person she was. You are the one constant in her life because you have value.

You have every right to divorce her, no argument but I think you need to stop with the pity party for your own welfare. If pain shopping is a palliative, ok continue to do it but put it into context.

My feeling is that she would be more destroyed by you leaving than you would be by doing so. Does that not say something about your worth......

A bit of background here. My H had a typical mid life crisis Affair during our 25th wedding anniversary. Typical mid life crisis Affair.

Two weeks after the affair comes to light he wants a D. I lived with that threat hanging over my head for months.

At DDay2 I dropped the bombshell that I was Divorcing him! I had enough. I had nothing left to give to him or the marriage.

He begged me to reconsider and reconcile. I initially said yes to bide time but never thought it would work. I demanded a post nup which he willingly signed.

I held on to the anger for far too long. My H was doing everything possible to make amends. But I was just so angry he cheated it clouded my judgment. Away from him I was fine. But at times over the past 6 years I was vicious because I just had to accept he cheated and wanted to dump me.

However we just went through a very stressful situation and I saw how amazing my H was. His patience and kindness was obvious. It melted that residual anger because he has shown and proven he can be the guy I married. He can be trusted. He can be my rock.

It took six years for me to see that. Don’t get me wrong the last 6 years we have had fun and we enjoy being together. We have a good life. Lots of laughs. We love each other.

So your wife has lied - and cheated - and acted in ways that was wrong.

I made the mistake of letting the past (at times) cloud my vision. People can change if they want to. look at your wife now - if she’s not the same person she was - has she changed for the better? Is she building trust?

I was in your shoes for years. Maybe I need to D him b/c he cheated!! How dare he try to Divorce me!! I get it. We all do.

But address your anger and why it’s still there. Then if you really want a Divorce- then that is your decision. But you want to know in your heart you gave the marriage and reconciliation your 100% best effort but could not make it work. And you have no other options left.

I had to remind myself often - he’s not that guy that cheated in the past. He’s making amends. He has true remorse. It is hard at times. But my H deserved another chance. He has changed and I see it. I cannot live in the past.

That is my suggestion.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 4:46 AM, October 13th (Sunday)]

CBM,

Not sure if this was brought up in your first post but have you considered a polygraph? It might get you the answers to the questions you still ponder i.e. did she sleep with guy in London? You’ll never be able to have peace or full reconcile while these thoughts torture your mind. Good luck and hang in there.

CBM,

Not sure if this was brought up in your first post but have you considered a polygraph? It might get you the answers to the questions you still ponder i.e. did she sleep with guy in London? You’ll never be able to have peace or full reconcile while these thoughts torture your mind. Good luck and hang in there.

Your anger is palpable. It does not appear that it has diminished since her confession and that is understandable.

Do I understand that she confided her affair to others and they were at the wedding smirking at you? If so, to me this is a compounding betrayal that goes way beyond her day trip with the guy with the blunt.

I went through something similar at age 34 and can say that 33 years later in the rare moments when it comes up I still spit venom. Our M was never the same. Would it have been better to divorce? Who knows? Maybe I would've met someone who was perfect for me or maybe I would've met someone like your and my W who could look you in the eye and lie to get what she wanted.

One bit of advice I can give. I remember thinking at age 34 that my life was over, that everything had passed me by, that I had wasted 9 years I could never get back. It actually triggered depression and an early mid life crisis.

When this happens, everything is viewed through a negative lens. Given your first post, I fear you are in this stage. What I want to say is that given time it gets better. But it does take time. Do things for you. Take care of you. Don't rely on her to create your well being. It won't happen. Do what you need for you whether it's shooting skeet, building a car, raising ducks or playing in a rock band. Value yourself. Free your mind and your ass will follow.

A couple of things....

First, you're about a year from the real d-day. If your antiversary is still a day or 2 weeks in the future, this is likely to be a very difficult time fr you. Many - most? - of us are in pretty bad shape in the runup to an antiversary. And many of us find ourselves relieved on and after the antiv.

Second,

I've always defined myself in large part as "us"....

That's understandable but in an 'us,' it's awfully easy for one or both partners to get inauthentic.

That's especially true, I think, for people who get together young. Remember: our brains don't fully mature until our mid-20s. Fairy tales may hold too much power over our imaginations until we mature. I'm not saying they hold too much power over you, but they might.

Third, you're one year out. SI's rule of thumb is 2-5 years for recovery. You're undecided? Not surprising. You need more time. Maybe24 minutes. Maybe 24 weeks. Just know you're not lost.

Hey CBM, just want to let you know that I hear you and I sympathize. This shit is difficult and frustrating and agonizing, and moreso for you than for me because you're trying to make R work with a WW who very clearly wants to do right by you in the present, even if she still sucks at it a lot of the time. I had the luxury of a straightforward road out of infidelity, even if it was one paved with pain and bitterness. The ups and downs and uncertainty and cognitive dissonance and all the other shit you're having to deal with must be terrible.

It's been a long while since I last spoke to Flawed or saw any kind of update from her but I hope she's continuing to improve when it comes to empathizing with you and thinking about you before she makes decisions.

Be kind to yourself. Remember that this is a long process. Even though I hope you two make it, what ultimately matters most is what's best for you individually. If it really is a dealbreaker, that's okay.

[This message edited by firenze at 9:06 PM, October 13th (Sunday)]

without a doubt harbor the same thoughts about her as you do about your XWGF

I actually know quite a lot about who my XWGF became over the years because we had to remain in contact as we co-parented her son, whom I never formally adopted but who was essentially my step son. This is how I know she did not mature into a better, more responsible person. She went the other direction, devolving into increasingly reckless behavior. She had some serious inner demons to work out. Had we stayed together, that would have been my life.

Your DDay occurred in conjunction with your anniversary, so unfortunately, for the rest of your life, your anniversary and your "anti-versary" will be more or less the same day. There are two factors that make your thread quite unique compared to a lot of threads here on SI. First, she voluntarily confessed this to you. She could have taken it to the grave. You had gnawing doubt for years, but as time passed it was diminishing. She had nothing to gain by confessing. She knew it risked the marriage. The only logical explanation was that she had done enough self examination to get past the demons that had guided her younger years, she wanted to be the wife you deserved, and she wanted to give you the full, informed choice. She put her neck on the chopping block for you.

Second, there have been other "found out years later" threads here, but most have been where the BH finds out via happenstance, and in many of them the marriage has been "meh" or worse in the interim. In your case, in the period leading up to Dday, and following, your marriage has been good-getting-better.

As I've said, I feel as if I'm a lot like you in terms of temperament. I completely understand your rage. It fees like it would be better to have a simple choice, or to have choice thrust upon you. But you don't. In life, one must play the hand one is dealt. I think that, emotionally, you are about where most BH's are at year 1 anti-versary. My advice is to continue giving it time.

To answer a question, especially in lieu of the Neanderthal/LifeDestroyer drama right now: Yes, my wife did pass a polygraph. I trust that she has not had any further infidelities. It has helped, but obviously has not been any kind of a panacea.

When I wrote the original post, I was posting while very angry (as I tend to do here), and out situation is not so dire as I probably made it seem. Our ability to have "normal"-ish times together has gotten better in the past few months. We do date night at least once per month, sometimes more, and I genuinely enjoy it and enjoy her company. Clearly, I am not "healed", but I would say I am healing, slowly. Ask me again tomorrow and you'll get a different answer, hah.

@Oldwounds - thanks for all your words of wisdom, especially the last post. It's easy to forget that you too had your struggles and a lot of pain of your path to where you are now. It's helpful to remember that you went through that too, and feeling it doesn't mean R is failing.

@SorrowfulMoon

You have every right to divorce her, no argument but I think you need to stop with the pity party for your own welfare. If pain shopping is a palliative, ok continue to do it but put it into context.

My feeling is that she would be more destroyed by you leaving than you would be by doing so. Does that not say something about your worth......

Thank you.

@The1stWife - you really summed up a lot of the positive I try to focus on, and which I think I (unfairly) hide on this site. My wife has changed too. I do get stuck in the "How dare she!" mindset. Seriously though, how fucking dare she? Hah.

@longsadstory1952

When this happens, everything is viewed through a negative lens. Given your first post, I fear you are in this stage. What I want to say is that given time it gets better. But it does take time. Do things for you. Take care of you. Don't rely on her to create your well being. It won't happen. Do what you need for you whether it's shooting skeet, building a car, raising ducks or playing in a rock band. Value yourself. Free your mind and your ass will follow.

Thanks for the kick in the ass. I do get stuck feeling like "all the choices in my life are already made", but I know that's bullshit. It is hard not to wallow in self pity sometimes.

@firenze - Thanks for checking in. You were a huge help for my wife, and thus for me, in the early going. I'll always be grateful. She still reads SI daily (if not hourly), but posting isn't much her thing. I try to encourage her to do it more because I really like reading her posts, but then I also don't want her to just be doing it for me.

@BFTG - I owe you an apology, it seems. Sorry man - didn't know your XWGF stayed in the picture and was still such a loser. That must have sucked. I stand by the sentiment though - if we broke up at 22, she would be whoever I wanted her to be in my head, and I could be moved on and barely thinking about her by now. As much as I do love her and love what our life can be/has been, I resent her for stealing that version of my life away, the version where she's just a cautionary tale of young love gone wrong, and infidelity is a very minor part of who I am.

[This message edited by CantBeMe123 at 2:17 PM, October 16th (Wednesday)]

Didn't know your XWGF stayed in the picture and was still such a loser That must have sucked.

Actually it didnt. Notice my user name here? Knowing who she became over time made it easier for me to let go of the hurt and move on. I did feel bad for her son, though. I spent a lot of time with him to try to shield him from her train wreck of a life.

CBM,

Somehow the story about her smoking a joint with some anonymous guy is really revolting, the oral sharing part.

That part doesn't bother me so much as just buddying up with him and leading him on. It bothers me a lot less than some of the other "oral sharing" she did, I'll tell you that much.

Cantbeme,

I thought a lot about you and flawed since yesterday. I went ahead and looked this thread up that you mentioned over in the other forum to read through it and get more of a sense of all that's going on. I was happy to see your fellow BS folks were encouraging you to examine your anger. I felt guilty as a WS suggesting anything of the sort, but I do see how it is probably making things worse for you and for that my intentions in saying it were good. Thank you for taking me in even if I am on the other side of the fence. I also echo Sissoon, that you have to be patient with yourself, being around the year dday was a dark and hard time for H and I, and many here. So, have self compassion when you can't manage all that you would want to.

What I came back to comment on is mostly that Flawed has been conflict avoidant and a people pleaser. I identify a lot with her. As I reflected on our conversation, I wanted to point out a couple of possibilities for both of you to explore a bit together.

Putting myself in Flawed's position - someone elses anger can be intimidating to me. It can cause me to have a hard time formulating thoughts and I will say things out of that place of anxiety. When the anxiety has passed, I will think of all the things I should have said or could have said that would have been much better. But, then it creates more anxiety over the next emotionally charged session. My H's worst anger stage was at about 6 months out. I remember just not knowing how to react, and I have always had this part of me that when someone isn't happy or something isn't right I just want to fix it. The hard thing with infidelity is there is no quick fix to it.

The second aspect that I wanted to mention to you, in those moments when your anger flares up...likely it's just all the pent-upness that you talked about. It may seem like you are having a really adverse reaction to what it is she is doing in the moment, but I don't think that is what is actually happening. I think when it's happening there really isn't anything right she may be able to do but hang in there. Because your reaction comes from the well and not from the present moment. The reason that's an epiphany for me, and maybe isn't for you (not sure) is because it does seem like the things you are so angry about aren't proportional to the anger and multiple days of it after. You even pointed that out to me in your post. So, all things have a big reaction, but it's just trying to manage the feelings you have over the whole situation rather than the smaller thing that was off about the interaction. If you realize it, I am wondering if flawed understands that? I think that could be a helpful conversation to have, because being in flawed shoes I would continue to berate myself over that mistake of what I did or didn't do.

I don't know if any of that is helpful. And, I apologize for not understanding you weren't angry over what was happening in the moment as much as the well of extreme emotions bringing you these moments of flooding. It was sounding more like she was doing all the things that we say to do on this site, that many BS's really pray their WS would do and that you were picking it apart in a way I didn't understand. But, that was very shortsighted of me.

You have mentioned some of your moodiness/anger was also a pre-DDAY trait. This to me means that there is good work that you could do that helps you find where some of the root of that happens, and be able to manage it better. I hope you will do that, because I think it will tremendously improve your quality and enjoyment of life. Take care, I am really rooting for you guys to come through this and have peace be restored.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:58 AM, October 17th (Thursday)]

@Hiking - Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. They're always appreciated.

I think the abbreviated versions what I share make it hard to get a sense of everything that's going on between us, and probably amplified both my anger and her setbacks. Neither are prevalent as I probably make it seem.

Our dynamic in conflicts now are more like this - I bring a hurt, she marginally validates (i.e., I'm sorry you feel that way), I try to clarify to seek better validation, she either freezes, filibusters or defends, I then get angry and frustrated. One of my goals from starting MC has been to try to control my anger and frustration once it passes that final stage, and to give Flawed a chance to process without the anxiety that comes with my anger and frustration. What makes it hard is that I so badly need validation on the hurt that I bring to her, and she tends to instead focus on showing me that she didn't mean to hurt me and explain her intentions. It's a "stuck spot" that gets us time after time.

My moodiness pre-dates dday for some time, but the anger is more a new thing. I used to just brood and detach, now I get more angry because any conflict reminds me of all the other conflicts which eventually remind me of her A and her lies and how much I wish my life was different, etc. And I know I have work to do on that.

Thanks again for "stopping in", as it where. I am all over the place with my posts lately, I guess because I have been all over the place in life as well.

I think the abbreviated versions what I share make it hard to get a sense of everything that's going on between us, and probably amplified both my anger and her setbacks. Neither are prevalent as I probably make it seem.

Thank you for clarifying. I understand that sometimes in this forum we put certain things under the microscope and then it amplifies it. It IS very difficult sometimes to see the full picture of what a couple is dealing with. I am sorry for misunderstanding the situation. And, while I do think flawed is trying I can appreciate it does take some time for a wayward to develop an understanding of what is needed. I believe you are trying very hard as well. As I have said from the beginning I think it's obvious that you have always really deeply loved your wife, and that's what is making this hardest of all. I truly do wish you all the best even if some of my responses have been misguided.

What makes it hard is that I so badly need validation on the hurt that I bring to her, and she tends to instead focus on showing me that she didn't mean to hurt me and explain her intentions. It's a "stuck spot" that gets us time after time.

CBM, you are in a cycle that most BS's find themselves in. No matter how much your WW says she gets it, she's sorry, she knows you are hurt - none of this is from a place that you need her to be and she does not yet know how, or is yet willing to go there.

When you hear the often used do they "get it" concept, the "get it" means, have they come to the place where they feel your pain with you, not just observe the pain on and from you. Have they stopped responsing defensively. DO they listen to your anger and pain with compassion and remorse, vs guilt and shame. Very few BS's can move to that place we all want to move to, without real and deep empathy from the WS.

An empathic person relates to and feels the pain of the person they are with. A WS often is not able to get their because their own guilt or shame or defensiveness consumes them and to really feel the pain of the BS just makes them feel even more guilt or shame.

The stuck spot (cycle) is not of your making. You are saying and expressing what every BS expresses. There is really no other way to express those traumatic feelings. And the need for validation at a very deep level too is what every BS yearns for. In couples where the WS reaches deep, owns it all, turns the shame and guilt into empathy......those WS's are able to validate their BS's pain in a very real and meaningful way. You are not the reason or cause of the cycle. The cycle is because your WS does not yet "get it" no matter how much she may think she does. A sure sign of "not getting it" is a defensive response from a WS.

Unfortunately, it is still very, very early for you. She has some broken pieces that will likely need attending and fixing before the light goes on and she moves from thinking she gets it, to really getting it.

The worst former cheaters in R are those that have little natural inclination for empathy. Some people seem almost immune to the capacity for feeling others pain. In those cases, it makes for a very sad or angry BS and a troubling R.