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Becoming increasingly apparent that this is a dealbreaker.

If there’s a greater pain in knowing that it’s knowing that’s only crystallizing now after a year of her working so hard for everyone besides herself.

IC points out watching my father helpless and struggling combined with BW helpless and struggling is a double whammy.

Trying hard to let her hear that I’m still working and waiting. Antiversary means she continues to feel this pain and needs to do it herself. I don’t want her to feel pressure but also hoping that hearing she’s worth any wait might help it sink in.

I know I have a lot of defeated sounding exclamations lately but there’s another one here.

[This message edited by JBWD at 7:52 PM, October 17th (Thursday)]

Hi there JBWD,

Just wanted you to know I hear you and I'm sorry for the painful times you're going through right now.

You've done a lot of good work on getting the tools together you need to figure your shit out and seem to have made some good progress toward personal healing and that is something that will serve you and future you no matter the outcome of your relationship with your BS.

That said, I know it must be excruciating to have to sit with the uncertainty and groundlessness that comes with letting go of outcome of the marriage. As difficult as it is, it can also be very fertile ground for our personal and spiritual development. It's okay to feel sad and regretful, just let those feelings come and be felt and then dissipate as they will without trying to shut them down or cling to them and keep them going.

Feelings come and they go. Thoughts come and they go. Work on learning to see them with clarity and being okay with things as they are each moment. It won't always feel great, won't always feel terrible, but whatever it is it'll be authentic.

Peace and healing to you from a fellow EvolvingSoul.

I'm sorry, JBWD. There are relatively few authentic, helpful voices in Wayward, and yours is one of them. It's hard to accept that genuine remorse, and the work that accompanies it, may not be enough to accomplish R. At least the work helps in understanding why it's a dealbreaker, and accepting our responsibility for it.

I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for you, hoping that you and your BW can enter a new stage. But if that isn't to be, I'm glad SI is here as a community to help you find a healthy direction in which to rebuild.

Even though that’s a hard reality to face, remember that the work you are doing isn’t for nothing. I try to remember that even if we weren’t trying to R, my thinking was flawed. My actions were flawed. There is something within me that needs to be fixed. Even if it’s only for myself. The old way of thinking will destroy me.

Keep working. Keep changing. I hope for the best for you.

Thanks all-

BSR to your point, we’re entering a new stage regardless. I hope it can evolve and more importantly hope my BW can heal- First things first, right? Her statements sound like they did 3 months, 6 months ago. The time is still running and I’m comfortable to wait.

All I have is patience, feeling ok today.

The most important thing to hear right now is that I’m helpful- I definitely don’t want to take from this community without giving back, and I’m grateful to know that maybe I can help someone else here.

I know it must be excruciating to have to sit with the uncertainty and groundlessness that comes with letting go of outcome of the marriage.

BS here. Let me give you some hope.

She isn't gone yet. If she wanted to be gone, she would be gone. You know you deserve that bullet and she keeps standing in front of the gun. You keep wondering if she will step out of the way.

Why pay attention to whether she will step away and instead see she stepped in front of it to begin with?

What more do "YOU" expect? (That letting go of the outcomes we talk about.)

She is in pain and she is staying around the thing that hurt her. If that doesn't show you she wants you, what sign are you waiting for?

So she won't 100% forgive or trust again. You 0% loved her during your affair and she can muster enough love and trust to try this long. Do your work and hold out for her. She has hope, why can't that be enough?

I always find it interesting that the WS sees the pain, but they don't see the love in staying. Logic and emotions scream at the BS to leave. Leaving would be safer. Leaving would be justice. Leaving would be showing strength. Yet the BS throws that to the wind and jumps after the WS out of a plane with 1 parachute.

Don't be the WS who expects the BS to give them their parachute. Put it onto her and hold on while hoping when it opens she can save you both. Maybe even accept the impact is going to hurt, maybe even kill you, but this last time together was better than falling alone.

Enjoy these last moments or make them the start of your new moments. But if someone is dying you stay to the last breath holding out. Don't give up until it is over.

[This message edited by DoinBettr at 3:28 PM, October 18th (Friday)]

I have gotten to know your situation a little bit more closely over the last couple of weeks, I missed some of your story when you first came here.

Some exploration...

I have someone in my family who in recent years came out of the closet as a homosexual (I know that's not you, bear with me). He had been married for 15 years, had a couple of kids. They actually tried staying married for a couple of years to see if there was a way they could make things work (I don't know what the options on the table were). But, one of the things his wife said to me at the time was "I can do a lot of things, but I can't be a male". And it was a heartbreaking situation because I believe they truly loved each other and really wanted to find some sort of way they could keep their family together. It really took them two full years to finally separate.

So, with that lens of their situation, I know you had a counselor who basically through their notes made some of your wife's worst fears come to life. That you were deeply in love with the AP, a transgender woman, and that it was selfish of her to come in the middle. You took some time to get out of the fog and that added hesitation was just too much for your wife to bear.

I don't know anything about your AP, but any transgender women that I have ever come across has more make up skills, more focus on their appearance than other women I have known. I know that's stereotypical to say, but I have not seen any contradiction of that stereotype, maybe I am sheltered. So, when I think of your situation I imagine your wife sees you with someone who is kind of the epitome of how I might think a man would want his ultimate woman to look? Like porno queen sex on heels.

That's kind of intimidating if that's true, right? It becomes an impossible job for you to reassure her that she is attractive to you because of how opposite the AP was. I actually have seen similar things on the BS board when the AP was a different ethnicity and that is the ethnicity their spouse has a preference for. I imagine those people thinking, well I can be a lo of things for you but I can't be Asian.

What I am building up to, is how do you undo that? And then to have your counselor make notes affirming of her of her worst fears. Now, understand I feel all of us WS have something steep that we have to find a way to bridge, so in that way you are not different. But, do you feel this is ultimately what has put this as a deal breaker, or something else? I also think because it could be considered somewhat "deviant" by some people for you to have a relationship like that, even in the fact you were still paying for sexual sessions but believed you were in love.

I don't think what you did is worse than what I did, so I don't want it to come across this way, but there are many things that can impede a BS from choosing R. Sometimes it's an unremorseful spouse, and maybe you did take too long to get there for her and that was the straw that broke it, but you are certainly there now. Sometimes it's just the idea that you cheated. Sometimes the BS has video or other evidence that they really can't see the WS without being creeped out.

You just have some very specific things here that I have not really heard how you go about addressing that with the BS. I think it's because you were separated (or close) by the time you got here so your posts of course are focused more on concentrating on being there for her without being pushy, your work, managing yourself on your own. Those would of course be things that are front of mind. But, I want to know if you think this is unsurmountable and if so why. Is it aspects of the affair itself or is it how you conducted yourself after or a combination of both? I know it wasn't long ago it seemed like maybe you had too much hope to get back together to have it crushing back down with she gave you an inch and you could see a mile in it.

I guess what I am also getting at is - I think it's commendable that you continue to work on yourself and have a true focus of being unfailingly loyal and keeping hope that you keep going and she will see it. But, in another way, I sometimes wonder if you have an accurate understanding of whether this is a deal breaker and if it is prolonging it to a certain point could actually just be more detrimental to both of you. I can't really tell, so this is not an assessment, this whole post is a lot more of a question.

JWBD, I'm sorry you're struggling. I know it's poor comfort but you can still be a good dad to your kids and a good co-parent with your BS, whatever she decides she wants that to look like. I admire your continued focus on healing in the face of a steady erosion of hope, and with loneliness. Do you have friends and family to cope with loneliness? I think that is at the root of many problems.

If it is a dealbreaker, let her go with kindness. She didn't want this to happen either. This isn't her fault and if she cannot continue with you, it isn't because she didn't want to.

I sometimes wonder if you have an accurate understanding of whether this is a deal breaker and if it is prolonging it to a certain point could actually just be more detrimental to both of you.

I think hikingout has a point. If I remember right you separated like 6 months ago and posted about getting divorced in like April or so. Yet you’re now saying this.

Becoming increasingly apparent that this is a dealbreaker.

It sounds like you thought this was just a phase she was going through and she’d snap out of it if you just gave her space or worked on yourself. I totally get holding out hope but are you expecting things from her? Do you feel like she “owes” you for your work on yourself by not getting divorced? I’m only asking because it’s a tendency that’s totally normal but is also very transparent to a BS. My BH would evaluate my behavior on whether I was trying to control his decision to D or not and whether what I was doing was authentic. Because if I had a motive to avoid D then I wasn’t being authentic and my work and changes were really superficial. Does that apply to you?

[This message edited by MrsWalloped at 2:44 PM, October 18th (Friday)]

BW, no stop sign.

I can't imagine what your BW felt when she read your IC's notes, what she's probably still feeling. The thing is those notes those notes didn't come from nowhere, the IC got their thoughts from their discussions with you.

I don't know if these notes were from earlier in your sessions with your IC or was this your IC's final recommendation. Was the final thing your BW read that she should step out of your life? If you've gone further and you truly want to reconcile and you feel there a chance your BW is not truly gone perhaps you could speak to your IC and see about the possibility of your BW attending an appointment with you.

Hi JBWB

As a wayward who has also made my spouse wait for me to get my shit together I feel I have something to contribute to this post...

I made my spouse wait 20 years and in all actuality, he is still not healed so that countdown to death is still rolling. In the past, the only times I actually applied myself and dug deep were when he had enough and was ready to walk. I guess what I'm trying to say is as long as she is eating her cake she has no incentive to get to work.

I am sorry you are in this situation. I know it must feel like torture.

A lot to parse and discuss-

HikingOut, to your final question about if this is just prolonging the pain, that’s my biggest fear. I worry that my presence will never stop being a source of trauma and a constant reminder of the pain that I brought to my wife. To that end, and to answer DD and MrsWalloped to some degree- Since the decision to divorce and mediate (mid-May,) BW has been fairly “stuck.” She has been eager to assert her independence but it has proven difficult for her. Early on she was doing ok, and I supported as best I could but she was eager to preserve barriers and as such I couldn’t particularly ask questions about just run of the mill daily stuff. That individual progress appears to have tapered off as we approach DDay on Sunday and things became more difficult for her. We had been doing Friday night family dinner and Sunday morning diner as a family. She had started giving me the option to opt out recently but what I stated was that I preferred time with the family. Live discussion about feelings was off the table, but roughly once a week there would be times where she would flood and discuss a bit by text.

This has suspended as of this week, along with a renewed push for mediation, which I am continuing to pursue with her. Her talking points as of now continue to be that she will never get better and that she at least needs me to move on and be ok, and to find someone else. It all sounds very defensive and fatalistic, though I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think this will never get better. This thread came about after the renewed push for attorney visits.

Do I believe that this was a phase? Not in as much as I still hear the walls being built. And I believe those walls will come down. And if and when they do I hope to have proven some semblance of the change I feel. I know I can’t make her feel any different but she acknowledges that we were and are a great team, and as such I’m working hard to support any way I can. But I can’t listen to her tell me to leave her in pain, because I know that’s not what I want to do. I think she wants to reinforce the easy answer that this was me killing us and be done but that isn’t the nature of this.

——————————————————————

Regarding the counseling- To elaborate, the notes were an exercise that our MC had me compile in getting to the questions about if what I needed to be fulfilled was a transgendered partner. This was about 2.5 months post DDay and MC had agreed (with BW’s concurrence) to be interim IC while my insurance caught up with finding me an IC. The exercise was to dissect the arousal I felt and see if we could ascertain differences and see just how “integral” this facet of my sexuality was- As such it was fairly explicit. MC and I absolutely agreed that if BW wanted/needed to read it she had access to it. She refused at the time. But what MC and I determined from the exercise and from assessment of it was that it was absolutely something I found erotic, but not a “must have.” The charge was “Now that we know this is something that draws you, can you be fulfilled without it?” And the answer was yes. I believe, though didn’t verify, that MC could sense the absence of connection in this narrative, because that was part of my realization in it.

Subsequently this was shared with both ICs in order to make available in case it was desired to revisit. Weeks after my subsequent TT detailed post separation, BW and her IC read this document and drew the exact opposite conclusion that, yes I DID in fact love AP. I don’t think anyone ever advocated for AP and I reuniting or pursuing a relationship, but I don’t really have a lot of insight into her IC. I have offered to go to IC with her (she knows us fairly well as she treated BW long before the A) but have been declined.

——————————————————-

Lots to it, I know, thanks for bearing with me. I don’t want anyone to think I was giving up because I absolutely agree with DoinBetter’s assessment on when to quit. I feel BW is looking for confirmation of the little worth she feels right now, I want her to hear/know what she’s worth- That can’t come from me now but I don’t know what a year or 2 looks like, save for the fact that I’m going to be near enough to be the father I want to be for my children. I know the day may come where I am tired of waiting for her and move on, but I don’t feel that way now. I continue to keep my distance but offer help where and when I can, but I know this is worth waiting.

[This message edited by JBWD at 11:43 PM, October 18th (Friday)]

. I don’t think anyone ever advocated for AP and I reuniting or pursuing a relationship, but I don’t really have a lot of insight into her IC. I have offered to go to IC with her (she knows us fairly well as she treated BW long before the A) but have been declined.

Is your wife's IC trained and experienced with your particular situation? A long history/relationship doesn't mean the therapist is a good fit for your current situation.

I've found personally that regular, generic therapists don't understand how to deal with more specialized situations. Regular therapists have given me poor advice/suggestions when it comes to addiction and cluster B personality issues.

I feel BW is looking for confirmation of the little worth she feels right now, I want her to hear/know what she’s worth- That can’t come from me now

Your wife should doing her work so that knows her worth regardless of who is or isn't telling her.

Of course, that has it's own risks. The fact that my husband entered into marriage with me without being able to see my worth until he's destroyed the marriage and did "the hard work"...well...I find that's hard to heal from.

My husband and I are pretty darn good at the day-to-day tactical running of the family. Sure, we're friends. Yes, he's there for me. That doesn't negate that fact that the one person in this world that was supposed to see the value/worth that I know I have didn't. He chose to behave in a way that demonstrated he thinks I have no value or worth.

And ultimately, my knowing my worth and my WS not seeing it is likely going to be a dealbreaker.

[This message edited by secondtime at 1:24 AM, October 19th (Saturday)]

JBWD, I apologise my response was written on the premise the IC notes were from your IC. I had no idea they were from a 3rd party who compiled them from looking at another IC's notes.

To be honest (and this is just my opinion) it almost sounds like your wife's IC had their own agenda. Like they had decided the best way forward for her was to end the marriage and they were trying to facilitate that.

No stop sign so.. perhaps a ray of hope?

It’s very much a dealbreaker for me.... in the moments that it is. I have moments where my mind absolutely reveals against staying with a man capable of such deep betrayal and deception. First, I was just waiting until I finished my degree. Then it was until I passed licensure. Then it was just until I found a job. Then it was just until the kids’ birthdays passed. Now it’s just until I finish this degree...

It’s the patience, absolute lack of defensiveness, and his eagerness to serve my needs, whatever they may be. If I want space, I get it. If I need an argument to vent the anger, I get it (arguments can be constructive and productive), if I need apologies, reassurance, or hugs, I get them. We’re almost three years out from Dday and it’s still a deal breaker, but we’re also somehow getting better. Just VERY, VERY slowly. I don’t really trust him at all. I can’t really be intimate or vulnerable with him. Still have mind movies and often get very grossed out thinking about the kind of man he was. But, I am starting to use the past tense with that. Am just starting to feel like he could be a friend again, etc. personally, I think patience is key. Do you have the stamina to serve her instead of yourself, for however long it takes?

It’s not over til it’s over. It may be one day, but until that day comes... there is hope.

If it is a dealbreaker, let her go with kindness. She didn't want this to happen either. This isn't her fault and if she cannot continue with you, it isn't because she didn't want to.

Just a question about "healing". Does she state she is in pain and can't get over it? Does she keep finding out new stuff? Is it the pain she can't get over? Is it maybe the actions and choices you made? We might assume that the BS is pain and pain being the reason why it is a deal breaker. I don't think that is true. I think many that leave have healed and their level of moral, ethical, and self respect values are different and the deal breaker isn't based on pain. It is based on you took them them for granted and advantage of them and you didn't protect them,so they move on. I am sure there are plenty of BS that aren't healed and are working on R or stayed in the marriage. So, leaving doesn't mean she isn't healing. Being a deal breaker doesn't necessarily mean she didn't heal. It just means that is the consequence of you choosing to cheat.

You still have a lot to gain. Don't get defeated by what you lose. Keep working on yourself.

Thanks for answering. I felt like I was asking some hard things but I needed you to elaborate to understand the situation better. One other question- you didn’t say if you feel there is an element here like I mentioned where she feels she can be a lot of things but she can’t be a transgender woman? As I have said I see BS saying I can’t be black, Asian, male, etc. as a iwoman I would be doubly intimidated by her experience as an escort who was good enough at what she does to make my husband fall in love with her (I get you really weren’t -but trying to see her view), and if she was very stereotypical appearance where she was basically always looked to the nines and like sex in heels. I just think there are things that can be so different from ourselves that there is then this bigger feeling of “If that’s what he wants I will never be that”. I don’t know if I am barking up the wrong tree but I certainly see this as a high possibility in this sort of situation.

JBWD:

BS here.

I will be honest in what I hear from you. I hear pride in your voice.

Your BW feels like shit. Your continued presence is not helping this.

This is not something that can be cured with knowing the whys or intellectualizing. Those are based on pride. If they are based on pride, they will not help your BW heal.

Frankly, I think you need to feel shame at your actions, to be laid low. To know that all of your actions in this life are worthless because you are about to lose BW. That she is the valuable one and you are not.

Once the shame experience is felt, then perhaps a new you, new relationship can be built. Rebuilding yourself without losing your pride is just making your BW feel worse.

This is your board, your post, and I do mean to help you with what I am saying.

HikingOut- Your follow on question about trying to “stack up” to AP? I’m sure that’s part of it, but the exercise I described was to answer the question of if that was a necessary component of what I needed for a partner: So MC and I set out to answer, and I articulated that answer to BW. I know that’s not going to magically settle that train of thought, but I think MC would have been up front if he thought we hadn’t reached a valid conclusion. I’m sure shaking that sensation is easier said than done, but there was clinical resolution specifically for that.

Zugzwang- There isn’t really clarification on what “it” is, as communication is fairly limited. It manifests as pain is what I can tell you. The loss of trust and communication, the one-sidedness of my A, all are the biggest contributors in what we have discussed.

Striver- Your comments are intriguing. What in here sounds like pride? I’d like to understand what you’re hearing more specifically.

I know that answers don’t work but am at a standstill because there is no way to support where we currently sit. I keep on my heels as much as I can but when the flooding texts begin I don’t want to ignore- I offer as little as possible but acknowledge I hear her. She wants the team to remain, and I want that as a potential foundation or endstate. But supporting that return (and her desire to fast-track it) is a delicate balance that I often worry I’m failing at.