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Cheating is simply a dealbreaker for many spouses. Sorry, but it might be better for him to get a divorce. Maybe you could follow Mrs Africa’s example

Since you've already had that talk then, it's time to follow through. It's not easy. Us BS's say you have to leave your M to save it, but your H seems like he won't change. I wouldn't be very hopeful.

Wishing you the best. Your situation sounds aweful, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Be proud though, knowing you put in the work and gave it everything you've got!

And not for nothing, but he never would have had to even think to go to IC, read books about his unfaithful spouse, podcasts, etc if you did not cheat. So that may be his line of thinking on not wanting to do that work.

And I totally see this and understand it, that is why I don't push ANYTHING. My marriage was in shambles pre-affair. I had asked for a divorce several times and we/he could have benefited from counseling in general. The drinking has been an issue from day. I have had 100 heart to hearts and we don't get anywhere.

I take full responsibility for my affair and I am committed to working on US. I don't want to be in a marriage like roomates and two ships passing in the night. That is how it was PRIOR to my affair and I was hopeful we could turn things around now. That just hasn't happened.

I am guessing a lot of ours were in not so great shape. My WH & I were not connected & needed counseling pre A as well (I did not ever feel it was in shambles) & my WH never mentioned divorce etc to me. It sounds like you own your choices & want to work through them. If his drinking has been a part of your M for so long, I am guessing that was some of the reason your M was in shambles..His drinking is likely exacerbated by your A, but it was not the cause. He is going to want to need to get help for that. And it doesnt sound like he wants to. The A (again never should have happened) could have been a wake up call for him, but it was not. The A was certainly a wake up call for me. I will never own a second of my WH choices to cheat, but I know our M needed help. I have owned my part in that & he is recognizing he had a good part in that as well! Our marriage has been better than ever before (minus the really awful A related parts) but we are intentional, we both care, we have both made changes. I love where were are now in our M. I know you were hoping for that too, but it sounds like he needs to want to work through his drinking & he is just unwilling.

[This message edited by tikismom at 11:40 AM, November 1st (Friday)]

I tried to PM you, but received a message that I am over my limit?

I agree with tikismom.

Your husband is an alcoholic.

He doesn’t have the tools to work on his end if he’s drunk.

Can you have him placed into an inpatient alcohol rehabilitation program?

It’s a start

Thanks everyone- I don't want to focus on the drinking. Its an issue, but he is not falling down drunk every day. He drinks to excess several times a week. To me 1 bottle of wine a night is excess. Sometimes its 2. He does not think there is a problem.

I guess we are just stuck, if he won't change, I can't help. But how can I expect someone to change for someone that hurt them so badly. See the cycle?

Hiking-I think we had a huge blow out and then things improved. But they never stay improved. We are still on the roller coaster. And I told myself 3-5 years of healing. Closing in on year 3 with no progress is disheartning.

This is what I imagined the answer would be, but I didn't want to answer you based on my assumption. Unfortunately, I think your husband needs his own help. He is stuck, and has a pattern that he is comfortable with in his life. I think that there is a difference between a BS who is hurting and one who is holding on to things to use as a way of controlling his environment to stay in place so he can pursue his alcoholism or keep an upper hand for other reasons. I also think Al-anon might be beneficial for you because it may help clarify what part of this is about being a WS and what part is just enabling him. I don't profess to know where that line is, but I think that it might be crossed to a certain degree.

I get that the healing cycle is 3-5 years, but there should be some incremental improvement seen by both parties. Meaning the WS should be striving, but the BS has their own things to strive for - and not really even for us, but for themselves and their own mental health. Without that, I don't know how you could really be expected to withstand it.

I guess we are just stuck, if he won't change, I can't help. But how can I expect someone to change for someone that hurt them so badly. See the cycle?

That's because it's not for you - it's for him. You can want better for him. You can want him to feel better for himself. And as I said, there is a point where you will be or are (?) enabling him to stay where he is.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:47 AM, November 1st (Friday)]

I guess we are just stuck, if he won't change, I can't help. But how can I expect someone to change for someone that hurt them so badly. See the cycle

Your infidelity is irrelevant to his excessive drinking since the latter predates the former. He needs to want to change for himself. This problem has nothing to do with you. No outside stimulus can MAKE a person do anything.

Dday was 3 years ago, but you have only been NC for 2.5 years. So did the affair go underground after dday?

No HellFire- DDay was March 13, 2017. I went full No Contact April 18, 2017 (it trickled for 5 weeks after dday).

I said "Closing in on 3 years."

[This message edited by pinkpggy at 11:57 AM, November 1st (Friday)]

No stop sign. BS here.

Piggy, you deserve to be happy. You've worked really hard to become a better person and you deserve a partner who will actually be a partner in life.

It's time to leave. At this point, if your BS isn't willing to better himself for you, the kids and your family, then he doesn't deserve them. B

((Pink))

The title of your thread is "Need help." My sincere question is what kind of help you need. If it was independent observers to tell you whether you were within your rights to leave, you have that now. A group of people who are less likely to cut you slack than any other cohort in society is saying, "Yes, you've taken this as far as you can, and now you deserve some relief and happiness." Your friends and family are on board. Even your kids are in favor of ending it.

And yet, here you are, after asking for divorce and/or sobriety many times already. So I'm asking with warmth and support-- why? Is it hopium that he'll suddenly wake up at year 4 or 5? Is it financial, doubt about being able to support your own household? Is it fear of the unfamiliar? Guilt about "quitting"? Concern at what happens to him or your kids if you remove yourself from the equation as a perennial punching bag?

I think we need to explore why you think you don't deserve better. It's not because of the A. That didn't help, for sure, and I'd argue that the immediate post-A period actually was a time you owed him some slack for this behavior. But this disrespect predates your bad choices, and you do not owe him two more years of servitude like it's a magic formula or a prison sentence. I think you know that intellectually, but haven't absorbed it emotionally. So Pink: what are you doing to address that, and how can we help?

Thanks everyone- I don't want to focus on the drinking. Its an issue, but he is not falling down drunk every day. He drinks to excess several times a week. To me 1 bottle of wine a night is excess. Sometimes its 2. He does not think there is a problem.

I guess we are just stuck, if he won't change, I can't help. But how can I expect someone to change for someone that hurt them so badly. See the cycle?

I differ from a lot of people on SI. I think that the WS does have a responsibility to help heal the BS. And I think it is a higher level that others believe.

However, at some point the BS has to say, I cannot do this. I want a divorce and cannot move forward with you.

And the WS, even so, has to look at reality and sometimes make that call for themselves that it will not work.

HE IS and alcoholic. You may not see it. You may not want to believe it but it is true.

So, one thing to know about drug addicts and alcoholics is that, their emotional development does not advance from the time that the started using.

Example, if they started drinking at say 25 YO, the in almost every case that person has the emotional development of a 25 YO. Maybe a little older after a lot of years, but they are stunted.

So, in your case, your H may not have the level of emotional development to deal with this issue.

On thing is certain, he has to quit drinking.

There is no way for you guys to move forward, at all.

I am not excusing your affair, but this is not working on many levels.

If he does not make changes or clean up, I really don't see a lot of hope...

I have lived this, so I have some experience...

[This message edited by BluesPower at 1:42 PM, November 1st (Friday)]

I guess my question of help-

What more can I do to help him?

Am I not doing enough?

Am I crazy for thinking at this point we should have more progress.

Are my expectations unrealistic?

Is there really any way forward?

I have a good job, good health benefits, and I would be fine on my own. I have the support of family and friends. I basically have been emotionally, mentally and phsically supporting myself for years, and since DDay it has been 100%. So I know I am capable.

Its just a matter of am I giving up? And when is it ok or enough to say, I tried?

I have never been in your shoes but I do agree with others.... you should probably separate and move toward divorce.

Your kids see it. People here see it. And you see it, don't you?

Separate and then, if he doesn't start to act on his healing for real, divorce. He needs a shock to get him acting. Maybe the divorce will be it. If he heals and wants you back you could always reunite later. If he heals and doesn't want you, well, you both will still be better off and so will your kids.

I don't want to focus on the drinking. Its an issue, but he is not falling down drunk every day. He drinks to excess several times a week. To me 1 bottle of wine a night is excess. Sometimes its 2. He does not think there is a problem.

As an alcoholic I couldn't agree more. You shouldn't focus on HIS addiction, because you can't help him. Every alcholic has to find there own personal rock bottom, before they can work to correct it. He shouldn't become sober for you. He has to want to do it for himself, or maybe his kids.

My guess is you worry about how bad he will get if you divorce. He may get much worse, but it might be what he needs to get his head out of his ass and stop drinking.

I'm going to say this with kindness. Please stop enabling him. Doing everything so he has minimal responsibility, minimizing his drinking problem, taking his abuse, those are examples of enabling his behavior.

I was a functional drunk. I never missed work, never went to jail, or beat my wife. But I am still an alcoholic. It took almost a year of waking up every morning and saying I wont drink today, before I finally quit. I was absolutely terrible to my wife during those years. It's a burden I will always carry.

My wake up call was I was becoming a parent. I needed to get better. Your husband may need a different wake up call. Possibly divorce, or whatever rock bottom he finds after divorce.

This has nothing to do with infidelity. Other than the guilt it has over you to stay with him. Help him by letting him fall.

If we seperate it will be permanently. I have no desire to wait and go backwards. I'm 41. I want to be happy and lead a full life. Not continue in limbo waiting for a miracle.

You are asking the unanswerable I'm afraid.

What more can I do to help him?

You can be open, honest and transparent. Unwavering. Consistent.

But if he is stuck waiting for a time machine, that's on him to work through.

Am I not doing enough?

Only you can answer that. But again, if he is waiting for a time machine or to wake up from a bad dream, that's still on him.

Am I crazy for thinking at this point we should have more progress.

That depends on how you define progress. You may wish that to be a re-connection/re-commitment. To him, the fact that he is still there may be seen as progress. What would he have to say about what progress has been made, or would he see any having been made?

Are my expectations unrealistic?

From who's perspective? What are his expectations vs yours? Therein lies the answer.

Is there really any way forward?

You both have to get through first. You may be working through but he may be stuck. You may be on the other side of through but he's barely dipped his toe in - because it hurts. Are you willing to wait for him to make that painful journey?

Its just a matter of am I giving up?

Only you can answer that. Easier said than done.

And when is it ok or enough to say, I tried?

That is a personal question. To me, it means when you can look at yourself in the mirror and honestly say "I did everything I could to prevent this [D in this case] from happening, yet here we are. And be at peace with that.

Pink - I'm not trying to be difficult. But you two are on different places of the healing journey. You may be doing your work. But he, I'm afraid, is stuck in the early stages of his grief processing. He hasn't accepted this really happened to him or begun to process it. He blames you for that hurt. And while he is right, he is handling it all wrong. Is he trying to self destruct and hoping you will save him? Is he still bargaining with God and the Devil in the bottle to make this not have happened? Is he afraid of what life will look like on the other side of this? Is he afraid that no matter what this will happen again? Is he afraid to admit that this was just a deal breaker for him?

Those are things he has to answer in his own time. You now have to face the reality that he may choose not to deal with them at all. And then figure out if that is the case, what you will do and where you will go from there.

I guess my question of help-

What more can I do to help him?

It's hard for us to know, but honestly as a WS reassuring them, showing love, showing remorse...these are all things we do to create an environment of healing. We can't do the healing for them. So, if your assessment is you are doing these things (and it has sounded pretty consistent since I got here), then I think you are probably doing all you can. The only thing I haven't heard you say is whether you have tried having this conversation with him? I know it just makes him mad - but he needs to know if this is causing you to question moving forward that the situation is that severe?

Am I not doing enough?

Again, you can create the environment, but he has to want to heal. Unfortunately, sometimes we can become misguided with perceived rewards. He is getting some sort of perceived reward from his behavior. It keeps him stuck. My top three personal theories is a) he likes the shifted power dynamic b)it gives him a license to have gone back to abusing alcohol or c) he's just so stuck that without professional help he doesn't have the skills or knowledge to move forward.

Am I crazy for thinking at this point we should have more progress.

No, not from my viewpoint. I would say that it wouldn't be abnormal that he is not healed, or that the relationship is not healed. What seems abnormal is that there has been no movement forward. And, again, I think he has to want that, he has to figure out why he doesn't.

Are my expectations unrealistic?

I am not sure that you have stated what your expectations are. If it's that things are better, what percentage or what way? It sounds like to me that you are still in the same loop as year 1? Is that accurate?

Is there really any way forward?

You both have to want that. You can only be in control of yourself.

Its just a matter of am I giving up? And when is it ok or enough to say, I tried?

I think it's okay or enough to say I tried whenever you have reached that threshold within yourself. I think this is a hard question for anyone to answer for you.

I lead a little towards what TRRD said. I think your husband is not going to find reasons within himself to change. He may really just need to be faced with the reality that this is not working for you or your kids. It's hard to have that clarity as to when enough is enough, but I believe you asking it is a clue here. Could you possibly return to IC to help cope with and sort out the situation?

I am with BSR, I have wondered for a long time what is keeping you there at this point?

I have no desire to wait and go backwards. I'm 41. I want to be happy and lead a full life. Not continue in limbo waiting for a miracle.

Did you maybe just answer your own question here? I would say if I wanted the marriage, I would want to give it the chance through separation. I am not saying you haven't wanted the marriage, but to me this is a statement of "I am done". And, honestly you are the one who has to give yourself permission to be done if that's what you want. I will just reiterate if you are taking that route, he really needs to hear that you are at this point. It sounds like the way it is now you just keep your head down and keep moving, but communication is needed. I know he puts obstacles in the path of that, but you are responsible to deliver him the message.

I would consider what we tell BS to do, set your boundaries, your requirements for R. 1)no drinking 2)he gets professional help. He lays off either of these things and you are gone. No nicing his way back in temporarily, actions that show he is going to do his part in moving forward. I know that's extreme and goes against what people normally tell WS, but honestly I think he is getting ready to lose his wife anyway, at least he would be given an opportunity to stop that process.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:25 PM, November 1st (Friday)]

BS here -

At some point it isn't really about the infidelity anymore. The infidelity becomes an excuse to stay stuck. This dynamic is hurting your kids, its hurting you and it isn't helping him.

Divorce him.

[This message edited by Babette2008 at 3:26 PM, November 1st (Friday)]