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Here is my other take on it. It is the equivalent of the KISA for guys. Women want to find/change the bad guy into a good guy. Then they have the secret good guy they always wanted and feel special because a man changed for them. It is the KISA for ladies I think. It is like the guys who try to get the local prostitute or stripper to marry them and become a good woman.

Oh goodness yes. That's such a trope in novels and movies that it's ridiculous.

Here is my other take on it. It is the equivalent of the KISA for guys. Women want to find/change the bad guy into a good guy. Then they have the secret good guy they always wanted and feel special because a man changed for them. It is the KISA for ladies I think. It is like the guys who try to get the local prostitute or stripper to marry them and become a good woman.

Oh goodness yes. That's such a trope in novels and movies that it's ridiculous.

It really is. Take Kylo Ren and Rey - one movie he's murdering his dad and others, torturing people, saying "you know I can just take whatever I want"... And the next movie, the connection between him and Rey is romanticized?! I mean, WTAF?!! Even the director was getting all swoon-y over it, apparently.

Apparently Hans is coming back in Frozen II. There was an interview with his voice actor some time ago, where he expressed a wish for his character to find redemption. Y'know, after trying to murder both the Queen and the princess of Arendelle. If this trope winds up showing up in this movie and a girl is charged with changing Hans "for the better" instead of Hans taking his own goddamn initiative (if that even happens), I may puke.

Too many other examples to name, but the point is this: society's media does much too good a job of romanticizing situations that either already are or could very well wind up being abusive.

Plus, women are stereotyped as being the ones who have greater "emotional intelligence" and "natural caretaking skills", so it's practically a requirement that we give an asshole infinite chances, patience, support, and love to help them change their assholish ways. This is the same society that tries to have lighter sentences on rapists because the courts "don't want to ruin his life." Society fails to give assholes appropriate consequences for their actions, and until that changes, we'll be continuing to sow dysfunction for generations to come.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 10:26 AM, November 15th (Friday)]

Here is my other take on it. It is the equivalent of the KISA for guys. Women want to find/change the bad guy into a good guy. Then they have the secret good guy they always wanted and feel special because a man changed for them. It is the KISA for ladies I think. It is like the guys who try to get the local prostitute or stripper to marry them and become a good woman.

There was KISA from my end in my affair, but not quite the way you are describing. The proposition was stated to me as "he was physically incompatible with his wife", and dead bedroom, wife "good girl" (likely his own whore/Madonna complex)

So for me, I saw an easy way to compete. It's reprehensible, I know that, but if I am honest there was an element of "I can rock this mans world, he won't know if he's coming or going". Total ego, it spoke a lot to how I was always looking for opportunities to prove myself worthy. Now I see it as pathetic, sad, and also hostile and cruel towards his wife, who I never met. So, here I was to "save the day". Yeah, right, but it lent itself to the whole feeling of how "awesome" I was. Yeah, real awesome alright. I don't like this is how I was, but I don't think I am unique from a WS standpoint.

So for me, I saw an easy way to compete. It's reprehensible, I know that, but if I am honest there was an element of "I can rock this mans world, he won't know if he's coming or going". Total ego, it spoke a lot to how I was always looking for opportunities to prove myself worthy. Now I see it as pathetic, sad, and also hostile and cruel towards his wife, who I never met.

That was me, too, minus the OBS. The girl in that role wasn't betrayed by the A; she was someone OM was pining for who had rejected him and chosen his best friend. My attraction to him was a mix of misplaced KISA and proving myself in a situation I saw as "low risk" because both he and I were in love with other people. It was pathetic, sad, and cruel to my long term BF.

But, what you are talking about comes across as purposefully holding back in order to see a specific result. That sounds manipulative rather than operating from a place of authenticity. I am not sure that would really be the case, so that's a question rather than an accusation.

I guess it depends on how you define manipulate:

:to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage

I would not consider my motivation to not make myself overly available as artful, unfair, or insidious. I would consider it my personal boundary. If you consider enforcing boundaries as a way to control influence a situation to your own benefit, then yes, it is manipulative.

I give my time to people, and if they reciprocate, I will gladly invest more in them. But I am not going to invest in someone who has poor credit even if I like the person otherwise. It's what I would consider to it to be a middle ground between being an "asshole" and "nice guy." What a guidance counselor would label in elementary school "assertive."

No. In fact, right now, I’d kill for safe, honest, kind. I maybe thought it was a thing in my teens but I learned that I didn’t want fake or Bullcrap. I wanted a home, and a family...kids. I clearly made a poor choice. I see all kinds of red flags now.

What makes me so sad is how much I wish I’d married one of you...you have the respect, trustworthiness and kindness I will likely never have now. I often ponder why those of us who want a truthful marriage don’t end up together. I guess hearing the BH’s stories here gives me hope. In the end, though, this experience has changed me in ways I’m not sure any man would be patient enough to wait out.

So no. There’s no way I’m interested in an asshole. I’m to the point where I want to use a pre-dating questionnaire 🤣

kingrat - That makes sense. Especially framed you put effort into people who put effort into you. Thank you for the clarification. It only stood out to me because I am in a mode of learning those assertive boundaries. (It's weird, I am assertive at work, personal life not so much). It also stood out to me as I continue to question my motives for just about everything. I am constantly saying "Okay is that authentic, is that true, etc". It's starting to come naturally, but something I am very cognizant and aware of.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:00 AM, November 15th (Friday)]

I like sushi, though it's probably not good for me. However, I always look forward to eating it.

I think women being attracted to assholes might be close to the same thing.

The hot bad guys get them all: the good, the bad, the ugly, the best looking.

There is some kind of allure with the brazen bad guys. It's animal kingdom stuff. It's kinda like the master walrus getting all the females. Women are drawn to these men who exude the feelings of power.

The good guys, not so much, left behind after they've done everything for the scummy hot bad guy. I've lived it.

[This message edited by rugswept at 3:57 PM, November 15th (Friday)]

One of them is very much an empath personality, and she finds someone that exploits that every single time.

Exactly! I didn't seek assholes I felt like they saw I was someone nice, willing to do nice things for them, lot's of empathy for their struggles, giving total blinding trust, and let myself become totally vulnerable.

The hot bad guys get them all: the good, the bad, the ugly, the best looking.

There is some kind of allure with the brazen bad guys. It's animal kingdom stuff. It's kinda like the master walrus getting all the females. Women are drawn to these men who exude the feelings of power.

The good guys, not so much, left behind after they've done everything for the scummy hot bad guy. I've lived it.

This right here is something I worry about giving a good chunk of my 20s to a cheater. I'm wary of any woman who says they're ready to settle down when they hit their thirties. Sure people can change and grow, but I was mature and responsible in my twenties and I didn't go through women like a box of chocolates. If I wasn't the type of man you'd go for in your twenties, I don't want you now. After all I went through with my exWW, hearing that from a potential date would make me think I'm being settled for and it would turn me off in a heartbeat.

What makes me so sad is how much I wish I’d married one of you...you have the respect, trustworthiness and kindness I will likely never have now. I often ponder why those of us who want a truthful marriage don’t end up together. I guess hearing the BH’s stories here gives me hope. 

DemolishedInside, I feel the same, from the other side.

Sakura, that’s why we find hope, you know? Look at this thread. So many of us.

I think like everything else, it depends on the woman and her circumstance and physical health.

Take my wife her brokenness drew her to bad boys.

Her first HS boyfriend, raped, degraded her and she stayed because she didn’t want a reputation. He got her pregnant and left her high and dry.

The boys/men after him, she allowed them to use her as a booth call.

First husband? Degraded her and verbally and physically abused her.

I came along and had the bad boy rep, but she hooked me and I reverted to my true nature, good guy. Treated her with kindness, respect, love and gave her the world.

First things said post affair? We were stale, your vanilla.

Droopy dog the AP? Verbally abused her, degraded her...he was a combo of first boyfriend and husband.

I didn’t stand a chance!

All the evidence is anecdotal. But it doesn't sem that way when it happens to you.

despite all the political correctness in gender relations, women do not like or take for granted beta males. since marriage is a contract (unlike parent child relation) one need an element of uncertainty/unease to keep everything in order.

Also the cheat need to know the BS still care want her/him to enjoy the cheating. That is why it says to act like ending it to save it

[This message edited by goalong at 9:05 PM, November 16th (Saturday)]

Just because your wife is stupid and broken doesn't mean the rest of us are. Don't pin her shit choices on all women. It's a blanket statement and it's insulting. It would be just as ridiculous if I were to say all men prefer ugly, stupid women with no moral compass because one dumbass ex of mine did. If you believe the statistics that more men than women cheat, then that must mean in your reasoning that there are more men that prefer asswhole whores to good women. D9 you prefer asswhole women or a good woman?

Just because your wife is stupid and broken doesn't mean the rest of us are. Don't pin her shit choices on all women. It's a blanket statement and it's insulting

Seriously! This is exactly why stereotyping and generalizing are so inflammatory. Guess what? You married an asshole. Does that mean you prefer assholes? Do all men prefer asshole, cheating, lying women? You know the woman who plays the damsel in distress for the KISA guy? She's an asshole.

I dated my share of assholes when I was young. And, that's it. I was young and inexperienced and was looking for fun. I got an ego boost when the hottest guy in the room was attracted to me. I didn't think about the fact that he was an asshole. I didn't know any better.

After I matured a little more and became more experienced, I wasn't interested in that kind of guy anymore. Enter my fch. He was the polar opposite of all those bad boys. He was reliable and caring and kind and gentle and thoughtful and responsible. I thought he was honest and trustworthy. I was wrong about that.

So, no, not all women want bad boys. Those of us who are mentally and emotionally healthy do not. There's something wrong with your asshole CW if she chooses a bad boy over a kind, decent man.

[This message edited by cocoplus5nuts at 6:52 AM, November 17th (Sunday)]

I think some men are. Some men don't mind being used and abused.

Notice how you switched things here. All women, but only some men.

What I know is that my WW's AP had cheated on his BW and WW knew it. They started cheating before his BW had moved out. Her moving out emptied his house so it was very convenient. He cheated therefore he was attractive, just like her father.

I don't think all women are attracted to the bad boys. In my longer life I've known a few players, though. They seem nice but they are simply searching for a woman who would take off their panties for them. They seemed to strike out a lot but were successful enough to keep at it. It also seemed to me they targeted married women who were less likely to make a scene.

I consider them assholes. Did then and even more so now.

I know my WW once said to her AP that maybe she should just move in with him which he rejected. That was early on and the PA continued for 3 more years. She claims she was joking but I think if he was for it she would have been gone. Too bad he wasn't for it.

Just because your wife is stupid and broken doesn't mean the rest of us are. Don't pin her shit choices on all women. It's a blanket statement and it's insulting. It would be just as ridiculous if I were to say all men prefer ugly, stupid women with no moral compass because one dumbass ex of mine did. If you believe the statistics that more men than women cheat, then that must mean in your reasoning that there are more men that prefer asswhole whores to good women. D9 you prefer asswhole women or a good woman?

Do you understand the difference between a question and a statement? If not, I'll clarify it for you: it's a question, not a statement.