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I was thinking back this morning to something my WW said to me a few weeks before D-day. She told me to stop putting her on a pedestal because she doesn’t deserve to be there.

At first, I thought she was just being humble, Now I suspect she was feeling guilty because she was vagina deep into her affair.

I have always taken care of her materially, physically and emotionally. She’s had her dream homes, dream vacations, dream furnishings, fancy cars, and money to spend frivolously. She has not wanted for anything. I have met her physical needs sexually, healthfully and protected her. I would’ve laid my life down for her without a second thought. I listened to her dreams, her sorrows, shared the pain and sorrow of our son’s death, comforted her when she was sad, rejoiced with her when she was happy, and in general have listened to her heart and mind (or so I thought).

I also treated her like royalty privately and publicly. I’ve introduced her as the best part of the two of us. I respected her choices and her friends (even though many of them turned out to be bad news).

But she tells me I need to stop putting her on a pedestal.

She found a guy who didn’t wouldn’t, couldn’t put her on a pedestal. Her bad boy ex-con boyfriend. He’d spent time in jail and prison for beating women. He slept with more women than I can count; this includes many of her coworkers. She, and all these other women gave him money, provided him with homes to live in rent free, and they gave him their bodies. The only thing they got in return was dishonesty, insults, pain and a lack of respect.

I was laying in bed last night, alone as usual, and started thinking THERE MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG WITH ME. On D-day, she told me he is a better man than me. He stole from his clients. He slept with the spouses of his caretaking client’s spouses…he did all this and he is better than me.

Forgive me for ruminating on the past again; but I have a question burning in my mind today: ARE WOMEN REALLY ATTRACTED TO ASSHOLES OVER DECENT GUYS?

Help me with this thought, if you can. What makes a super-fucked-up-asshole more appealing than someone who will love you and place you on a pedestal?

THERE MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG WITH ME.

There is nothing wrong with you.

On D-day, she told me he is a better man than me. He stole from his clients. He slept with the spouses of his caretaking client’s spouses…he did all this and he is better than me.

She was foggy AF. I think you had it exactly right when you said you thought she said not to put her on a pedestal because she was feeling guilty because she was cheating.

ARE WOMEN REALLY ATTRACTED TO ASSHOLES OVER DECENT GUYS?

No, no we really aren't. Certainly not as a gender rule.

Some women might be conditioned to believe we don't deserve good people in our lives. I'm sure some men are conditioned that way too. In that way, women, men, gender-fluid, people of all backgrounds might choose someone who isn't good for them, because they don't feel they deserve better. It doesn't mean they're attracted to assholes. It might well mean they don't feel worthy of being in a relationship with a healthy individual.

And some of us just plain get fooled. Some of us think we're meeting someone genuine and kind. And we don't learn otherwise until it's too late.

There are a lot of other configurations in between, but the bottom line is: it's not a rule that women are attracted to assholes. Many, MANY of us prefer kind men who love us, who let us love them back, who build safety and health with us.

Unhealthy women are more attracted to assholes than to decent men. Some women don't feel comfortable being treated well because they don't believe that they deserve it. Some women get bored with a good relationship because they have a need for drama to keep them engaged.

I know that my XWH was an asshole, but I was attracted to him precisely because he presented as not being an asshole. It was the asshole behavior that ended my interest in him.

In my own experience when I was an asshole I was VERY popular with the ladies, when I was a nice guy is when all the abuse happened.

This is not a gender issue.

That said, I think that people of either sex who secretly are ashamed of themselves sometimes fall into relationships with objectively real losers because it is “what they deserve.” They feel guilty with a spouse who treats them well but cannot tell them about (or maybe even identify) why they feel so undeserving. With the “bad” person the internal (often subconscious) dialogue is “he/she is bad like me; I don’t have to pretend to be deserving; I am actually punishing myself for all my sins by being with him/her. It all comes from deep-seated self-hatred, so IC is required.

I dated some losers in my time. No one in jail or anything like that but they were not very nice as a boyfriend. Jerks.

I used to confuse pity for love. I wanted to help them. I wanted to rescue them and turn their lif around filled with love and joy.

Haha haha 😂 like I was ever going to accomplish that. It took me to age 22 to realize I felt sorry for them. It was not love.

Also for some it’s the thrill of the chase. As in you want what you cannot have. It’s exciting. It’s illicit. It’s intoxicating. Then once the thrill of the chase is gone, they move on to the next victim or AP.

It’s the ego boost of being needed. The AP “ needs” the Affair because it provides the “high” they crave. The infatuation. The lust. The “I can’t stop thinking of you” feeling. Compared to your same old same old familiar spouse who’s not as exciting -the AP is “everything”.

I hope this helps why people choose affairs. My H did the same thing as your wife. Picked an emotionally needy young woman who had serious issues and a string of terrible relationships. She “needed” him. He loved the ego boost.

meanwhile I’m at home with young children, A job, running the house and our lives single handedly while he’s flying around the world for his job. And I never complained about it. I thought we were a team. I fully supported him.

I stopped trying to make sense of his choices years ago. He needed some ego boost hence an affair.

It will never make sense. I don’t engage in his drama and he knows I won’t put up with it. Not anymore.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 11:21 AM, November 14th (Thursday)]

In my own experience when I was an asshole I was VERY popular with the ladies, when I was a nice guy is when all the abuse happened.

Candyman:

I've observed this in other men. I have a relative who is an absolute asshole. He has been all his life. He's in his mid-60's now, still treats women like trash, but women line up to get abused by him.

I can't understand it.

No, of course women don't like assholes.

But some people like to be with people that know what they want, and go after it. There's a sort of clarity and simplicity about it. And sometimes assholes have that characteristic.

Also it's annoying to have someone put you on a pedestal. It makes you feel like you can't ever have any imperfections. Assholes never put anyone on any pedestal.

Of course it's MUCH WORSE to be with someone who treats you terribly, but I'm just explaining why there is sometimes the appearance of women liking assholes.

I don't think there's anything wrong with you. But make sure you always have your own priorities, your own boundaries, and you are not just giving all of yourself over to another person. That's not romantic. It's dysfunctional. I'm not saying you do that in real life, but your description here reads that way, a bit.

I can't speak for all women, and I don't intend to, but I have NEVER liked assholes. I have (rightly) high self confidence and self-worth and I have no patience or time for being treated badly. I have always been attracted to men who were smart, confident and kind. I respect myself too much to be with someone who doesn't respect me.

Also it's annoying to have someone put you on a pedestal. It makes you feel like you can't ever have any imperfections. Assholes never put anyone on any pedestal.

annanew:

Annoying? I put my wife on a pedestal knowing she had imperfections. Loving someone, despite their faults, should not be annoying (at least not in my head).

[This message edited by 36yearsgone at 11:30 AM, November 14th (Thursday)]

I asked my wife the exact same question.

And AP didn't initially act horrible to her, he was a friend of the family -- so he played the 'aw shucks' I don't normally chase married women, but YOU'RE special -- card.

However, as the A went on he showed his true colors and because my wife had already betrayed her own values, she continued to rationalize that 'he wasn't THAT bad'. But he was and he continued to treat her worse and worse. One encounter she described sounded far more like assault than consensual sex to me.

By the end, he dumped her in a very harsh manner and started to brag about it at work, which ended any chance for her to succeed at that company.

So, the fantasy bubble burst hard and she realized that's not how she wanted to be treated. It is disturbing how much she put up with, but about four years later, I believe her now when she insists she much prefers the grace and kindness I've shown her.

A brutal lesson at my expense.

I prefer a man with a kind heart but not a door mat. I like when a man stands up for himself but is also gentle with his speech and treatment of others. I think people confuse 'nice guy' with 'door mat'. I've never been attracted to assholes. Never been attracted to doormats either. Stand up for yourself, be assertive, but do not treat others with cruelty. In my opinion, it is pretty simple.

I prefer a man with a kind heart but not a door mat. I like when a man stands up for himself but is also gentle with his speech and treatment of others. I think people confuse 'nice guy' with 'door mat'. I've never been attracted to assholes. Never been attracted to doormats either. Stand up for yourself, be assertive, but do not treat others with cruelty. In my opinion, it is pretty simple.

It should be pretty simple, but based on observation it isn't.

My WH put me on a pedestal, then he kicked it away and can't face the damage caused by the fall.

You have done nothing wrong, she needs to understand and appreciate that.

Not a gender issue and there is no way to generalize this.

This is the difference between love and limerence. A combination of nature and nurture can leave some people seeking the rush and whirlwind chemical high that comes with limerence. For those prone to seek the involuntary psychological sleight of hand, you need emotional unavailability (being an asshole). That is why some people are simply drawn to people who they logical reason to be "bad" for them.

Not a gender issue and there is no way to generalize this.

This is the difference between love and limerence. A combination of nature and nurture can leave some people seeking the rush and whirlwind chemical high that comes with limerence. For those prone to seek the involuntary psychological sleight of hand, you need emotional unavailability (being an asshole). That is why some people are simply drawn to people who they logical reason to be "bad" for them.

Sure there is a difference between love and limerence, But love should preclude limerence.

I don 't know if there is any logic to choosing the "logic of being with an asshole" over the possibility of having it turn into a life changing event that costs you nearly everything.

ARE WOMEN REALLY ATTRACTED TO ASSHOLES OVER DECENT GUYS?

Let's turn this around: Are men attracted to the crazy-ass femme fatales who want to use them and then throw them away?

The answer is yes. We sometimes look at these women and think how fabulous it would be to be with them.

But those of us who have somewhat healthier self esteem (finally!) realize it wouldn't be fabulous at all (especially those of us who were married to that for 20 years). They may still perk up our ears once in a while, but we know we don't want that kind of burden/abuse.

I finally knew I was on the road to healthy when I would decide on a first date that this attractive woman would be no good for me.

And that's why I'm in now in a long-term relationship (five years) with a woman who is nice to me, and appreciates me. Have I put her on a pedestal? Yep, a bit, but because she's earned it by virtue of something other than "being cool" - although she is pretty cool. She's just so much more than that too.

I think that question could be flipped and generate just as many responses... ARE ASSHOLES ATTRACTED TO DECENT HUMANS?

Short answer is no. I don't think the majority of people are attracted to assholes. Speaking from my pov, generally speaking, if I feel they are abusive or misogynistic or any of those 'asshole' traits, that kills my lady boner quicker than anything. I am frankly disgusted at men that act like that. And I'm maybe weird or something, but I have zero issue with calling them out on it when they do.

I think people confuse 'nice guy' with 'door mat'.

I think there is definitely something to this too. I know there are gender differences based on societal/cultural beliefs, but I think it is entirely possible to be a nice person and still be able to stick up for yourself. There is a vast difference in saying "Eff off" in an angry tone of voice and saying "Your behavior is unacceptable to me and I can't even" in a more rational one. They are both essentially saying the same thing, but one is framed more nicely. So for my view, 'nice' does not equate to 'spineless'.

Yes, it does. That is why some people go looking for a limerent object while there are in love. Some people, when put on a pedestal, are so eager to jump right off. It's nothing you did wrong; it's her chasing the high and obsession of a limerent object. In order to be a limerent object, you have to do a metaphoric hokey pokey--you have to have one foot in and one foot out.

This is playing hard to get and other games work. The 180 operates with success the same way. Drop the supply and the demand with inevitably increase. Some people become addicted to the chemicals released by the crazy-making. They mistake love for feeling like they're in a romance novel.

You know, the first time my dog got loose, I ran after her. The faster I ran the faster she ran in the opposite direction. So in order to catch her, I ran back to my house. She was in pursuit, the faster I ran in the opposite direction, the faster she ran after me. I quickly realized it was a game.

Let's turn this around: Are men attracted to the crazy-ass femme fatales who want to use them and then throw them away?

This is a fair question. I think some men are. Some men don't mind being used and abused. When I was younger I did notice that many of the men I knew had a certain affinity for this type of woman. They considered them easy. They got something from them that cost them much more than it was worth.