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She stepped out because of my shortcomings. So I must pay attention to her needs, immediately. I must stop invading her privacy, immediately. It's not fair to her. I betrayed her by not meeting her needs, and the deeds are equal. Plus online doesn't count. She's giving me the cold shoulder, sending incendiary messages. Expecting me to do the dance. But I can't dance, and I'm too tired anyway.

I got this same bullshit immediately from my XWW.

From the millisecond she knew she got caught being the exact opposite of the sweet princess image she tries to portray to everyone, she immediately flew into rage and blame.

First, let's be clear, none of what she has done has anything at all to do with you or your marriage - nothing.

It was not for anything you did or did not do nor anything you said or did not say.

There is no issue, problem, or "rough patch" in any marriage/relationship that renders an adult, married woman/man incapable of knowing fundamental right from wrong.

There is nothing you could have said or done to prevent her from making the decisions she made.

Her reasons for her behavior exist 100% within her and those reasons have been there long, long before you ever met her.

She just found what she thought were viable excuses (to her) to act on behavior she was always capable of.

Second, DO NOT accept this shit from her.

Not even for one fucking second.

Shut her down EVERY time she tries to blame you or shift responsibility from herself.

Shut her down quickly and with emphatic conviction.

Shut her down no matter what she threatens you with (divorce, leaving, etc).

If she thinks, in even the slightest way, that she can shift blame to you, then she will and always will until she comes to the stark realization that you will absolutely not accept her bullshit - EVER.

My XWW was like that and I did not accept her blameshifting crap for one second.

I divorced her ass, shut down all communication except for necessary child-related communication and she still, to this day, over six years later, has nothing but contempt and anger towards me.

I pity her as it takes a lot of continuous mental acrobatics to keep vilifying people to give yourself mental justification for your selfish addictions.

Think long and hard over whether you really want to live with someone like this, because people like this rarely ever gain any true self awareness or genuinely accept responsibility for themselves.

[This message edited by keptmyword at 12:22 PM, November 19th (Tuesday)]

Anyone else dealt with something like this turn to anger?

In my case the anger was immediate and then over the years turned to silence with occasional outbursts of passive-aggressive remarks and actions to remind me that the anger was still there but hidden.

In your case think of an adult woman with the emotional capacity of an adolescent, or possibly a teenager. Selfish, with no self-awareness, no accountability whatsoever.

Somewhere in her life her ability to grow up emotionally became stunted and she was frozen there. The world is full of these types of people. They go to work, drive cars, and outwardly do all the things adults do, but inwardly they are still children.

A mature adult with a functioning conscience, after having hurt someone, will not only admit it but do all they can to make it right.

Her IC should be helping her to get to the bottom of how she got so broken that she could do the wicked things she did and on top of that blame you for it. It is mindboggling but easily explained once you know who you're dealing with.

Her IC should be helping her to get to the bottom of how she got so broken that she could do the wicked things she did and on top of that blame you for it. It is mindboggling but easily explained once you know who you're dealing with.

She's seen the IC a long time. According to what she says the IC has no trouble with saying what's wrong with me and what I should do. Nevermind she hasn't met me and probably never will and is getting one distorted take.

The other thing to note is that my WW seems to not think that what she did was bad. Just a thing she did because circumstances. Seems to see herself as one of those 20th century writers in search of a scandalous memoir. Claims that if I had cheated because of lack of sex, she would have just had to understand. (There was lack of sex. I never cheated.)

Anger, and more anger

Once you look at anger as a response to a loss of control, it all makes sense - her anger.

Yours too, by the way, if you are feeling anger.

She was the Master Of Her Universe, able to manipulate and control her way through life. She probably thought she could regret her way back to your good graces. That's not working. So she plays the Anger card to get back control.

Up to you as to whether this new strategy works or not.

Sending strength!

Yours too, by the way, if you are feeling anger.

She was the Master Of Her Universe, able to manipulate and control her way through life. She probably thought she could regret her way back to your good graces. That's not working. So she plays the Anger card to get back control.

Up to you as to whether this new strategy works or not.

Sending strength!

Yes, I'm feeling anger. I just express it in a far more controlled way. It's also being replaced by a major sadness and resignation.

I think your take is quite right. I assure you this new strategy will not work. In the past, she's been able to count on my desperation to be in a good place with her if things derailed. But this time, I'm simply worn out, and utterly unable and unwilling to pretend her actions were my fault. My uncrossable limit is believing we both had equal share of our problems pre-affair, and the affairs are all her, and now hers to fix. She wants to fix everything in the marriage now, and pretend the affairs only matter as symptoms.

I'm simply worn out, and utterly unable and unwilling to pretend her actions were my fault.

And herein lies where the paths start to diverge.

She’s counting On the status quo and your ability to suck it up and do what you’ve always done. Except now you are not doing that.

And she doesn’t like it because she’s losing control of you and the situation.

Watch what happens the more you don’t give in to her. She’ll be angry and mean and vindictive. Until that no longer works.

My H tried to lovebomb me into Reconciliation. Didn’t work. He tried to still think he had control over me and never expected me to throw him out or walk away from our marriage. The day I did he was blindsided. Now he knew how it felt.

Get out if infidelity. Get out and save yourself.

Slanted,

You may take this as being pushy, but you need to ACT NOW. File, separate finances, and implement the Hard 180 NOW.

You can sit and watch her waffle ad infinitum blaming you and the marriage for her decisions. Or you can get yourself out of that shitty situation TODAY by starting the process of GETTING YOURSELF OUT OF INFIDELITY.

I cannot count how many times since I joined SI where I've sat by and watched as countless BS's sat and observed at how obviously broken their WS's were acting yet didn't act in a way that got them closer to extricating themselves from their bad relationships. I will include myself in that demographic.

I have literally not seen one instance since I've been here at SI where the WS pushes back for many months then has an epiphany moment and suddenly turns into the perfect R candidate. Literally not once. I've heard of a couple that sort of disappear from SI over time, but really can't recall of a time where the WS just suddenly "gets it".

Just do yourself a favor and start the D process. If, say, after 6 months of steady work she has shown that she wants to truly be a safe partner for your, then you can try at R. There's no rule that you can't R after D. But she has to SHOW that she is solidly on the side of wanting to be with YOU. Nothing less.

Right now she's hedging her bets. She's setting herself up as the victim and you as the bad guy should her AP (or simply the next AP) comes around and presents herself with another opportunity.

You deserve better. Don't fall for the Sunk-Cost Fallacy.

Slanted,

Had a read of your OP to get some background.

What struck me was:

On the one hand, she said to me last night that she wanted to shift her thinking, and focus solely on the pain she'd caused me, and what I am going through. I thanked her. If actions follow, well, okay. We'll see.

Which you posted earlier in the month.

It is obvious that your WW does not have the will to make the M work, as she is too engrossed in her loss of her AP. You are chopped liver in her eyes.

A truly remorseful WS would be walking on broken glass to help the BS, and the BS will be the centre of their lives. Yours is obviously only telling you what you want to hear, and not doing what you need.

Has she written a NC letter yet? If she is still dragging her feet on this, she is possibly hoping to wear you down, to break you into submission, so that she can continue with her soulmate again.

BTW, I may have missed it, but her PA was supposedly 'touching' only. Has that been confirmed that this is the truth, or continued minimization?

BTW, I may have missed it, but her PA was supposedly 'touching' only. Has that been confirmed that this is the truth, or continued minimization?

"Confirmed" by her! I have reason to believe otherwise.

I do know that their messages contained wistful "coulda been" language a while back. It's really irrelevant if she's shutting down transparency, though. Because how will I ever know? She seems to expect me to be content with her assurances, and I think one source of rage is that her assurances are no longer enough to send me merrily skipping away.

In retrospect, maybe the biggest turning point was when she seemed totally genuine while she was talking to me and then I told her I knew she was lying again. Did not like that. It really ripped my heart out. I mean, you know -- again.

And she doesn’t like it because she’s losing control of you and the situation.

What she said.

Once they realize they are losing control over you - that's when shit really hits the fan and they lose their minds with anger.

"Confirmed" by her! I have reason to believe otherwise.

I see

Must agree that you should believe otherwise.

She seems to expect me to be content with her assurances, and I think one source of rage is that her assurances are no longer enough to send me merrily skipping away.

..... and the power starts coming back to you again. Well done! Keep it this way. Never let liars/cheaters be in control.

The more she rages, the more you should keep a VAR on you. This is for your own protection, as irrational WS do crazy things.

The very fact that she is still lying to you, and not thinking of your pain, then there is no chance for R.

For any chance at a successful R, the WS must make themselves safe for the BS. This means:-

- no lies

- total NC with their APs (after NC letter is sent)

- transparent on all platforms of communications (she is failing at this already)

- being accountable for every minute of the day

- consistent transparent behaviour

- focus on the BS, as the BS is the victim

There will be more, but the fundamental elements are points 1 & 2. Without those two, there is no way in hell that a R can even be considered.

Squid. My H was one of the cheating spouses who had an epiphany on Dday2 and “got it”.

I am one of the lucky ones.

But I can tell you at Dday1 he was like every other cheater. No remorse. Bad attitude. Arrogant. Rewriting the marriage. Blaming me for his affair. You get the idea.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 3:48 AM, November 20th (Wednesday)]

She wants to fix everything in the marriage now, and pretend the affairs only matter as symptoms.

Marriages don't cheat... people do. Your WW made the decision to act outside the bounds of her stated values. She claimed (vowed) to believe in marriage and faithfulness but her actions say otherwise. THAT is the gap which illustrates the defect in her character. The marriage didn't make her cheat. You didn't make her cheat. Nothing can MAKE someone decide to abandon their own belief system if they truly value it. She didn't. She doesn't.

It's up to you to decide what you'll make of that. Without a true repair of the character flaw, what you see is what you get.

If it were me though, I'd most likely up the ante. IOW, she claims you're invading her privacy, I'd double down and demand a polygraph. I'd see an attorney and be ready to file if she refused. And I would mean it. No games. No second, third, or fourth chance. Just "all in" or "all out". She's not giving you much to work with. And even though your therapist is telling you to slow down, there's no guarantee that she ever will.

There's also the issue of whether this relationship will EVER be fulfilling to you. We tend to lose respect for our cheaters, which is still a question I've been working on TBH. I can't imagine trying to reconcile with a WS who was too busy blame-shifting to understand the need for EARNING my respect again. Can you look at your WW without seeing her pathetically immature naked texts? That doesn't go away unless/until she provides you a better illustration of herself to replace it. You can't do that for her.

Anyway, the long and short of it is that there's no magic way for you to incentivize a change in her behavior. Your choices appear to be either "wait and hope" or "the ultimatum".

She's seen the IC a long time. According to what she says the IC has no trouble with saying what's wrong with me and what I should do. Nevermind she hasn't met me and probably never will and is getting one distorted take.

There are two possibilities here: (1) that your WW is making this up to manipulate you. (2) that what your WW is saying is true and the IC is toxic to your M.

Neither possibility is good and there's no way you can find out the truth. You might want to insist that your WW find another IC that you have a say in hiring.

Yesterday my WW came home from her IC session and told me that her IC counseled her to help me whenever I get triggered. That's the type of counsel your WW should be getting in order to help you feel safe in your M.

If I heard what you've been hearing, I'd immediately be on the phone with her IC to confront her.

The other thing to note is that my WW seems to not think that what she did was bad. Just a thing she did because circumstances.

Yes, this is minimization so that you'll back off. It's not her fault. It's the fault of the circumstances.

Seems to see herself as one of those 20th century writers in search of a scandalous memoir.

Like a teenager reading romance novels and watching soap operas.

Claims that if I had cheated because of lack of sex, she would have just had to understand.

My WW offered to set me up with a friend of hers who was also cheating on her husband. Of course this woman lived 3,000 miles away.

There was lack of sex. I never cheated.

And therein lies the difference between you and her. Same situation but a different response. One person is mature while the other person is broken. This is what her IC should be trying to help your WW figure out. "What happened to you that you could destroy your marriage and then attempt to justify it by blaming your husband?"

Slanted, I don't think she's giving you anything to work with her. She occasionally throws you crumbs but reveals it all to be a manipulation to appease you into rugsweeping the second you don't take the bait and express gratitude for it. I don't think you should waste even 1 more minute of your life twisting yourself into a pretzel to try and maybe R with her or even 1 more second contemplating that as a valid choice. It's not because even if you could convince her to pretend to care about you and the marriage after devastating it, she still has laid a very clear truth about your marriage - she's allowed to cheat if she doesn't feel you are meeting her needs adequately and she has no responsibility to you to even inform you that she's lacking so you just have to accept it. No matter what she does and says to even look like some sort of attempt at remorse or R, this truth will always be looming over you and will lead to a 2nd DDay in your future until she emphatically changes her stance on this. Any second more you spend staying, no matter how much verbally you protest, is another affirmation to her that she's right by cheating and you're putting up with it. To her, it's only a matter of time before you see the error of your ways and admit to fault and as long as you don't file for D, she has hope that you will "see the light" any day now.

That said, if pigs fly and she starts becoming a promising candidate for R, she needs to get a new IC. This one will always sabotage R by not challenging her lack of remorse and enabling it.

Seems to see herself as one of those 20th century writers in search of a scandalous memoir.

Like a teenager reading romance novels and watching soap operas.

Only in this case, it ain't soap operas! More like XXX with a side of X.

Only in this case, it ain't soap operas! More like XXX with a side of X.

The reason I mentioned soap operas is because back in the early 90's when the cheating began, my WW had me record soap operas for her on our VCR(yes, we're that freaking old ) that she would watch when she got home from work. Handsome, successful men and beautiful women cheating on each other. A sanitized version of porn.

Then there were her immoral scumbag friends who I warned her to stay away from but she wouldn't listen.

All this twisted her thinking, along with the Prozac, and the unfortunate early death of her mother. Along comes "Mr. Right" or "Mr. Right Now" and there you have the perfect storm of infidelity.

Who or what influenced your WW to stray from the marriage? This is something a good IC would want to get to the bottom of so that her cheating on you would never happen again.

there's Esther Perel's take for validation.

Now I know where she got the idea. If she is reading those books and/or watching her videos. . .yeah no wayward, in the early days should use that or the Dr. Harley stuff. They all blame the betrayed spouse and put all responsibility on the BS. They are particularly easy on WWs. It is the dated notion that women don't cheat unless there Ms made them do it. Completely wrong.

So sorry man. I don't think she is giving you much to work with. I think you need to move ahead with a D. She may come around but she smells of the N word and it is next to impossible to R with a Narcissist.

You should ask her that since she had an A and that if you would have one it would be her fault, right ?

FWIW I think she is still in the A. She is acting that way because she never ended the As. They are still going on. Probably more than one too.

Move ahead with your life on your own terms and you will be much better off in the long run.

Who or what influenced your WW to stray from the marriage? This is something a good IC would want to get to the bottom of so that her cheating on you would never happen again.

Agreed. And for what it's worth, I still own a VCR! Technology is never obsolete. Just out of fashion.

What concerns me is that, according to my WW, the IC is getting to the bottom of the justification, and stopping there and asking "what are you getting from him?" Not getting to the bottom of why she is/was willing to pursue something so fleeting at the risk of up-ending the whole life she's created. Bit of a difference there that she can't see or let in.

[This message edited by Slanted at 2:08 PM, November 20th (Wednesday)]

The other thing to note is that my WW seems to not think that what she did was bad. Just a thing she did because circumstances.

A husband and wife gets into an argument. The husband gets mad and beats his wife up.

The next morning, the husband tell his wife that he’s sorry but it’s all her fault. If only she didn’t get him angry so much, none of this would have had happened.

Is the husband right? If that wife was a sister or a niece, what would you tell her?

Waywards are abusers. They abuse us then blame us. Don’t accept blame shifting.

[This message edited by ShutterHappy at 2:32 PM, November 20th (Wednesday)]