SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I think 'The Simplified 180' is a much better outline than the original 180 doc - see https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=598080. You may prefer it, too.

Either way, I urge you to use the 180 as a way to find and enhance your own strengths. It is not meant to be a tool to manipulate your H into R - it's a tool to help you detach from an unremorseful WS.

D – Don’t

E – Even

T – Think

A – About

C – Changing

H – Him.

Also, don't think this is in ant way easy. Detaching is difficult. If you break the 180, take in the breakdown, and just start again.

One of the lessons learned today from this forum is that I am not seeing any change from him because 1. he is not remorseful and

That's probably the reason.

2. because I am trying to "nice" my way through this nightmare, which 3. causes him no inconvenience or discomfort whatsoever.

The issue is boundaries. Sometimes you have to say, 'This far, and no farther.' You can be pleasant while you enforce your boundaries.

You have a list of non-negotiable demands. When you made the list, did you have an idea of what you would do if your H didn't deliver on his promises? If not, you need to figure out what you'll do. Doing the 180 is a great step.

What a fool I've been.

On the contrary. You tried out a strategy, found it wasn't working, and looked for help. It would be hard to be less foolish. And you're even taking the advice you sought!

It's eye-opening to learn the difference between regret and remorse. I send him emails he does not reply to. Videos (from Affair Recovery on You Tube) that he does not watch. He has my list of tasks that he will not address. These DIRECT ways that he can help me heal are ignored. He is only comfortable right now in the INDIRECT ways (the house, the cars, the pets, etc.).

His actions are telegraphing “he’s just not that into you”. I’m sorry to say this. It hurts my heart when I read these scenarios. You are trying to reconcile and working 110% to recover. He, on the other hand, is not trying even 10%.

Your own words show the disconnect.

And I agree with the other posters here at SI that say he’s using the separation as a testing ground for a possible future with the AP.

Get yourself a lawyer ASAP. Not saying divorce him but you need to be prepared if he comes to you saying he wants a divorce.

Hi, gently, how can you know for sure the affair is over? Could he possibly be using this time to secretly meet with AP?

My WH gave me access to everything on D-Day. Shock and awe. He knew I meant business, and I would not tolerate any disrespect from him. He included his work emails AND work voicemails. Nothing was hidden, an open book.

That was 14 years ago, and I still have access to everything. Transparency is key for R. Non-negotiable.

Thanks everyone for your amazing feedback, love and support. So many of you asked questions that I just cannot answer them all. But I so appreciate the interest and investment you all have shown for me. I have taken all of your words into consideration. And.....

I have made a decision: At our next counseling appointment (this Monday night) I am giving him a dealine of Jan. 31st to do everything on my list that I have asked him to do to re-establish safety, trust, transparency and accountability in our marriage. Otherwise, I am filing for permanent, legal separation. I have to make myself and my heart feel safe finally. I've waited long enough.

Some might call this an ultimatum, which I know nobody responds well to, but for me, it's really a deadline to tell him that I have reached my limit and this is as far as I'm willing to wait.

My one struggle with this: I am conflicted about him doing as I ask because of an ultimatum, out of coercion, or fear of losing me. I would rather he act out of love and remorse. What is your feedback for me on WHs and ultimatums. I fear he will only be going through the motions so he does not lose me, and I don't want that. Does love eventually re-emerge after an ultimatum?

You are giving him a reasonable amount of time to do what's really the bare minimum for staying married to you. If it's technically an ultimatum, OK, but I think of an ultimatum as forcing someone to choose between two options. He's claiming he wants to stay married while not doing the things that would make your marriage a true marriage. You are enforcing boundaries, that's all.

Ideally he would do the items on your list 100% out of love and 0% out of duty I suppose. Ideally he would be an honest, faithful man. We're not dealing with an ideal situation by any means now. If he becomes transparent, there is no guarantee that this will lead to true remorse or love. But if he's not transparent, your marriage is a non-starter. You may be able to rebuild a new foundation of love after you take care of these basic first steps.

I can't remember if IC is on your list but IC is a must for him. My husband didn't really start to work on himself until IC. Actually, I'm surprised he's still in IC four years on, but I'm glad because it shows that he values working on himself.

I wanted to add: he will likely respond like you are a super mean mom. He will try to make you feel bad for enforcing your boundaries (maybe unconsciously, but the result will be the same). He will act like the boundaries are the problem, not his infidelity. Stay strong. You are asking for the bare minimum and frankly for him to act consistently with what he claims to want. You're under no obligation to keep trying in your marriage after he's blown it up. It's a precious gift that you are willing to give him a second chance, and if he doesn't like your reasonable terms for offering that gift, he is the one being unreasonable.

Re love returning, I view love as an action, not a feeling. Certainly your husband's feelings are all mixed up right now. He must have some loving feelings for you or he wouldn't be staying, half-hearted as it seems to be. But he is definitely not loving you like you deserve right now. I imagine he doesn't love himself very well either, and that's a pre-requisite for loving others well.

[This message edited by swmnbc at 8:01 AM, January 3rd, 2020 (Friday)]

Ultimatums may not be welcomed by a cheater but they are not for him, they are for you and stating clearly what you need. As with everything in life, he has a choice, do what you need in order to save his marriage or not and lose it.

Look at it this way: you also have a choice, tolerate his lack of empathy and action or put firm boundaries in place as means to protect your mental health.

My WH had a light bulb moment when he understood that I am not the meany who demanded actions out of spite and dishing out punishments. It was what I (and our marriage) NEEDED to stand a chance to recover.

I would phrase it exactly like that, this is what I and our marriage NEEDS to stand a chance. It is your choice to follow through or get out of my life.

You are very generous with your deadline by the way. I hope you find your peace soon.

Luna10: Do you think the deadline should be sooner? A week, perhaps?

I've never been in this situation before and I am stumbling around in the dark.

Your doing the right things .. I would only give him 2 weeks .. he has had months .. but I Can be nasty ..

Please see a lawyer first .. know your rights .. unfortunately some men are nasty he cheated add what else could he Be doing and he could use the time separated to hide money and financial information. You mentioned he pays the bills .. set up a separate account for your self, as you have your own funds that hopefully he can not touch .. just an FYI have a friend whose XH forged her signature and sold her stocks .. she lost a lot of money.. so lawyer first .. then give him the list ..

Well my situation is somehow different because although my WH did everything I asked from day 1 he still took the A underground and continued to be friends with his AP for another 4 months because he loved being a KISA and he wanted to offer her support for her heartbreak. 🤢

So I gave you the background to know that I am not one to say I did everything right. But...

I always had access to my WH’s devices, all our married life (I never checked though) so demanding what I needed from my WH was on dday was expected as it wasn’t a massive change. Pretty basic, end the affair, NC and access to everything (which as I said I already had, he just needed to understand now I was going to use it). Plus location sharing.

It all happened on dday as he expressed wishing to remain married and was willing to do everything it took. Well, he did mostly, except having dday 2 as I said 4 months later when he confessed he kept in touch as friends with his AP who was now threatening to tell me.

The reason you should demand it asap is for your own self esteem. Unfortunately everything you do now will be something you will have to process later once you’re out of shock and it will hit your own self esteem and self respect. Imagine having to think, once the shock stage is over, I actually allowed my WH to continue his A by not demanding what I needed. One example for me is the regret that I didn’t actually demanded him to leave on dday. This enabled him to take his focus from me (once I confirmed I’m willing to consider R) and focus on “my wife has “won” but my AP is heartbroken and needs my support”.

But as I said nobody does it right immediately after dday because very rarely the BS has an infidelity plan. We think we are still reasoning with the person we thought we married, with adults who can see the damage they are inflicting on us. They (the WSes) don’t. They are just in damage control in the first few months after dday.

[This message edited by Luna10 at 10:16 AM, January 3rd (Friday)]

Both my BH and I wish he'd given me an ultimatum. Without one, I did everything on my own terms and my own timeline, without regard to the pain I inflicted. If he had told me that his terms were non-negotiable, and turned and walked out the door to prove it, I'd have gone running after him. But he didn't, so I took my time letting OM down gently, like I was the prize.

Yes, in an ideal world, BH wouldn't have had to threaten me, and I would have lost interest in OM immediately on D-Day. More likely, I would have been sad and worried about OM, and yes, even resentful of BH forcing my hand. But sad, worried and resentful would have passed far sooner than the trauma my BH experienced, which just got more entrenched as the weeks and months went by.

And if I had refused to pull my head out of my ass and meet BH's terms? We agree that ending our relationship would have been the smartest course of action for him. I doubt he'd have been struggling with the feelings of betrayal and inadequacy for as long as he did after surviving 8-10 months of terrified limbo.

An ultimatum forces clarity. Right now, your WH thinks he can take all the time in the world to pine over AP and wonder if he made a mistake by letting her go. When you take yourself off the table, that's when he starts worrying about it being a mistake to let you go. But unless you force it, he won't see that as a real possibility.

Great decision.

What will you do if he doesn't meet requirements? What if he meets some but not all?

'Ultimatum' is a cheater's word for 'boundary.'

Just put it in a form like: 'If you don't do a, b, c... by January 31, I'll start the D process.' Say that and only that. Oh, I guess you can say, 'I hear you think that's an ultimatum. What's important, however, is that if you don't do a, b, c, ... by January 31, I'll start the D process.'

For 'I'll start the D process' substitute the consequence you decide on.

You have no need to defend yourself, so don't. If your MC attacks your decision, I recommend firing the MC.

IMO, it's important that he NOT do these things for you; rather, he needs to do these things for himself, in order to change from betrayer to good partner.

If he does these things for you, when things get tough he'll blame you for his difficulties. If he does this for you, he puts you in the role of mother/police, and again you get blamed when he has difficulties.

The only way for him to heal is for him to decide to become a good partner to you. That may not happen overnight, but it has to happen sometime; otherwise, he's too likely betray you again.

JMO, of course.

[This message edited by sisoon at 2:02 PM, January 3rd (Friday)]

I would recommend to spell out your list here and let these wise people help you with it as well as your delivery and verbiage.

I agree, Jan 31 is way too long. He has had months to do simple things like remove his password from his phone. That will take 10 seconds.

AnnieOakley, this is a great idea. I will post my list in a little bit, right after dinner. It is a list I never dreamt I would ever have to write up or a conversation I never thought I would ever have.

So it was brilliantly suggested that I post my list of non-negotiables that I gave to my WH; the list I gave to him four months ago. The list he has ignored for four months.

I am presenting this to him again at our next counseling appointment with a deadline. If anyone has any input or something to add that I have not thought of, please let me know.

A few things to explain. He has no social media at all (No, FB, IG, Twitter) so that is why there is nothing about that in here. Also, the reason I insist on his selling or donating his boat is because he took the OW sailing on it. I cannot stand the sight of it now.

For safety:

• No more contact with her and her family, no matter how much they call, email, write or text

• Change your phone number, canceling the current one for a new one

• Delete your current email accounts and establish new ones

• Trade in your old phone and get a new one

• Delete their photos on your ipad

• If they ever find you, block their phone numbers and email addresses

• Call your doctor and get tested for sexually transmitted diseases

• The boat is to be donated away or sold

For transparency:

• Remove thumb print access to your phone

• Print out call/text history from Verizon website from DD to present

• Remove password access to your ipad

• Change all passwords (yours and mine) to the one same family-use password

• We merge our cell phone bills so our call/text history is transparent

• If they reach out, share that with me and let me know

• Daily check-ins

• Ongoing counseling

Things like removing the thumbprint and getting a new email should be done immediately.

I was going to suggest breaking everything into a few different "do by" dates, but then I changed my mind. You shouldn't have to present him a detailed plan that you spent hours crafting so he can do as little thinking possible to make this happen. It's beneath your dignity to need to do that. I just don't want you giving him a long period of time to do the things that can be done in just a few minutes.

I am going to play devil’s advocate here.....LALisa, are you prepared to follow through if he does NOT comply? I have listened to all of this advice as well and am in no better place than you, but I am petrified that he’ll call my bluff. And I use that euphemism because that’s just what it would be for me, a bluff to be called. I do not have the strength to issue this kind of ultimatum and then also follow through if he won’t do it. I don’t want to take away the backbone you’ve built up to this point, but if I did what you’re going to do and wasn’t prepared for the fact that he might not immediately check the boxes, I think I’d be in for a lot more tears. I’m not saying to lay there like a doormat and continue on as if it’s making a difference, I’m just saying.....prepare yourself. I’m trying to prepare myself that he’ll say, “nope, not gonna do it,” and then decide what I’m going to do from there. Good luck....sorry if I rocked the confidence boat.

Uneedtosmile:

Some things to consider. When it’s time for consequences, it’s okay to be a ball of tears on the floor that it came to filing. Of course you’re sad. But what’s the alternative? How long can you go on sharing your husband with OW, or disrespecting you, showing zero remorse, being an unsafe partner? (Or whichever behaviour has lead you to enforce your boundaries)

Here’s is what I’ve noticed in my years here at SI. Those that waffle and allow the continued abuse eventually come around and enforce their boundaries. Then their WS finally come around and pull their heads out of their asses. Problem is - by then, the BS has nothing left for the WS. They ask “why is he doing the right stuff now? I’ve been waiting for x years?”

Enforce your boundaries now while you still have love in your heart for your WS or do it later once they’ve used up any grace you might have extended. One might save the marriage - the other does not.

Don’t let fear rule your choices.

He has outright admitted to me that he knows he is selfish and that he is not marriage material.

These words and his actions speak volumes. He is no longer the man you married. He may become a better version. He may not. The choice is his though not yours.

Check out The1stwife's story.

There are others like her but she stands out to me.

It's certainly unfair to have a future you built together taken apart unilaterally by one party. You are forced to deal with his choices and tear apart your fairy tale. Totally sucks.

One thing IC can help with is re-framing your situation. You cannot change him. You can look at your life and make the best choices for yourself going forward.

THIS. SO MUCH THIS.

Here’s is what I’ve noticed in my years here at SI. Those that waffle and allow the continued abuse eventually come around and enforce their boundaries. Then their WS finally come around and pull their heads out of their asses. Problem is - by then, the BS has nothing left for the WS. They ask “why is he doing the right stuff now? I’ve been waiting for x years?”