SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

yes, forgiveness has been a slippery concept for me. Now, I just don't worry about it. problem solved.

if forgiveness is a choice, I doubt it's a one time choice but a daily one.

I so agree with this post.

Infidelity is a choice. That is a powerful statement and IMHO a key-issue both WS and BS need to embrace. To use a crude comparison: We aren’t surprised if the horse in the parade takes a dump. Might cause some mirth and there is usually some unfortunate guy at the end with a shovel and bucket just in case. The horse is an animal, it doesn’t have the moral base or the free will to know and decide that defecating on Main Street isn’t really accepted, nor do we expect it to have that border or line in its thoughts. But we would be really surprised and shocked if a member of the band dropped his pants and let one go. That person has the capability of pre-planning, of restraint, of choice, of deciding actions.

If we ever accept that infidelity isn’t a choice – a decision – we are also accepting the statement that it isn’t preventable. After all – if our spouse couldn’t decide not to cheat then we can’t expect him/her to decide not to cheat again. Just like we can’t chastise the horse we couldn’t expect fidelity.

Forgiveness is comparable… To me forgiveness is something I mainly give myself. You can decide to forgive but that’s not the same as accepting or condoning whatever it is you are forgiving. To me it’s simply deciding that whatever it is then it’s not going to dominate or control my thought on the person I am forgiving.

I also think forgiveness develops – just like remorse does. I think a “sorry” and a wall of wailing two days after d-day is shallow. Just like saying “I forgive you” at that time would be. I think one could tell a WS shortly after d-day that you want to forgive and will work towards that, but I think both forgiveness and true remorse are goals that need to be worked towards.

Of course, after d-day the infidelity dominates the marriage. Even if you “forgive” you need accountability, the truth, rebuilding security… the works. Although you have decided to forgive you haven’t reached that point yet. The cause – the infidelity – still dominates you and controls you and your relationship.

You can “forgive” and yet divorce. That mainly impacts the speed and emphasis you need to place on forgiveness. I was OK with not forgiving my ex fiancé for about 15-20 years. It wasn’t until I realized my anger at her was troubling how I viewed relationships and my present marriage that I decided to let go… and forgive. I can imagine the benefit of a divorced couple with joint custody in finding forgiveness. Not so you can visit or enjoy each others company, but simply to be better and more efficient co-parents.

I don’t see how you can remain married without working towards forgiveness. I honestly don’t. That’s why reconciliation is so hard, because within a reasonable time (be that 4 years, 6 or 8…) you the BS need to let go of the suspicion and fear, while at the same time the WS needs to understand the need for accountable trust. I doubt you ever reach a stage where you can honestly turn to your spouse and say something like “I’m so glad I totally forgave you” but rather “I’m so glad I feel like I have forgiven you despite your affair”.

Forgiveness is a valuable thing. Forgiveness is freeing. Forgiveness doesn’t mean the infidelity didn’t happen. Forgiveness does not mean you will accept future infidelity. Forgiveness simply means the betrayed doesn’t need to continue carrying all the crap dumped on them by the unfaithful spouse.

To me, this is acceptance. Acceptance that this horrible thing happened to you because of choices made that were out of your control. We do need that to move on, we do need to stop carrying all that crap.

I posted in the other thread on forgiveness that I believe it's an option, not a requirement. Forgiveness on such a huge personal betrayal is a really big 'ask' for anyone. This betrayal causes trauma that takes years to recover from and some of us never do.

I'm okay with acceptance, letting what has happened be truly yesterday's news and moving forward, with or without the WS. Forgiving or forgetting? Not so much.

True forgiveness is something else entirely, I believe.

I don't put that much focus on forgiveness, honestly. I don't feel pressured into it, and I don't feel it's necessary to move forward in life. As somebody else said, I see forgiveness as absolution. Honestly, absolution is between him and his maker at this point. I don't feel like I need to give him that. Also, I'm not the only one he has harmed through this process. He took away time with this son and children. He hurt other spouses. He even hurt the other APs by lying to them about his intentions (I don't really care because they suck, but still).

Acceptance. Yes, I've come to understand that's necessary. I have now accepted what happened. I'm accepting the effects that it has had. Accepting that I need to heal and work on me, and he needs to do the same. Accepting that this is my shitty reality now.

As far as unconditional love, I didn't stop loving my WH when I found out. That love is now mixed with hate, but I still love him. If he cheats again, I will still love him. I'll also leave him though. I don't see that as conditional love because it really has nothing to do with me loving him. Unconditional love doesn't mean putting up with a bunch of crap.

If I stopped loving her because she was unfaithful then my love wasn't real, it was conditional.

But didn't she stop loving you when she cheated? Why give unconditional love to someone that doesn't have it for you? In fact, when they cheat, aren't they COUNTING ON you having such an unconditional love for them that you won't leave? And isn't forgiving them so quickly just feeding further into their narcissism?

I agree with GR. Hell yeah my love for my wife is conditional. Or, rather, my willingness to remain married to her is conditional. If she were to announce tomorrow that she is declaring an open marriage, and then make it a point to be in my bed sucking off a different random man each day when I return home from work, I'd divorce. I realize that's an extreme example, but if marriage were truly unconditional, then even in that circumstance, my heart would remain unchanged. That's not how I roll. My marriage is not based on some model where I view myself as a proxy for God, while I view my wife as a mere fallible mortal. That would be patronizing and weird.

In the above circumstance, I would probably still feel love for my wife, at least for a time, and divorcing would break my heart, but I would not remain married.

In my marriage we are both mortal humans with normal human emotions. More important, we have expectations about our spouse's behavior that, if not met, might cause one of us to D. Infidelity is not the only dealbreaker. If I became a beer slob who sat around the house all day intoxicated, watching sports on TV, leaving a mess, pissing money away, and not working, I would expect my wife to divorce me. Knowing her, she would make a real effort to get me to straighten up, but in the end, if I didn't change, I've no doubt she would be gone.

Similarly, if my wife began intentionally harm our children, I'd make an effort to get her to stop, bit of not, I'd be gone.

For me, the D would be irrespective of whether I still felt love for her. In fact I probably would feel love. Bit I'd leave nonetheless.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 8:53 PM, March 11th (Wednesday)]

But didn't she stop loving you when she cheated?

I don't know whether she stopped loving me during her affair. On the surface it would seem that she did because her actions seemed to supersede any love she claimed to have for me.

Why give unconditional love to someone that doesn't have it for you?

By its very nature, something unconditional doesn't require the same from someone else.

In fact, when they cheat, aren't they COUNTING ON you having such an unconditional love for them that you won't leave?

Unconditional love does not mean there will be no consequences when a partner cheats.

And isn't forgiving them so quickly just feeding further into their narcissism?

No, I don't think it does. First, not all cheaters are narcissists.

My forgiveness is about freeing myself not giving my wife carte blanche to abuse me.

My forgiveness is about freeing myself not giving my wife carte blanche to abuse me.

I totally understand that. And you're a much stronger man than me.

But won't the wayward mindset interpret quick forgiveness as just that?

But won't the wayward mindset interpret quick forgiveness as just that?

They can interpret it anyway they want. Many may see it as a sign of weakness instead of what it is: a sign of strength.

In reading your posts, OP, I have wanted to say something for a while and bit my tongue because I am fairly sure you don't want to hear this. I want to be as gentle as I can here.

1- You sound like a good man who experienced something that you were just not built to process, something so alien to you that your mind and body sought to shape it into a context you could understand. Your filter was religion. However, Christianity doesn't call for you to keep your cheating wife or for you to stay with her in any capacity. It does not require you to continue to support her or similar. You imply that it does...you throw out a lot of talk on forgiveness...but you conveniently ignore biblical references that don't support the course of action that you wanted from day 1. The religiosity is a cloak for doing what you wanted to do anyway...one that gives you faux justification, moral superiority, and the aura of being the "good man". Respectfully, this is nonsense. If you want R...R. Don't wrap it in Christianity. Christianity doesn't require what you are doing.

2. She is fairly remorseless. You have said so yourself. In posts, you regularly point out that she largely doesn't get it.

3. She was wittingly or unwittingly setting you up to be murdered. Her and OM talked about your death, assuming control of your money/business. She had sex with him after this.

4. She was part of a morally bankrupt business that is facing criminal prosecution...she was a part of this enterprise. This shows her moral character...in addition to her cheating on you with another employee that was literally stealing from elderly people.

5. You say she signed over assets to you as an act of contrition. Surely, you know that this means absolutely nothing. You are married. All assets are legally considered joint, regardless of who has their name on them. If you divorce, she is legally entitled to 50% of all marital assets...and these are marital assets, regardless of whatever she signed. She will claim that you threatened her and she signed under duress. As such, her act was meaningless.

6. She self medicates with drugs and alcohol... This is all kinds of bad, more so for someone of her age. She should have effective coping strategies by her age that don't involve drugs or alcohol. RED FLAG.

7. You are heavily fixated on the idea of your marriage, to the extent that it blinds you to the reality of your marriage and what it has become in reality. To comprehend this, you have to look at reality, not your mental vision of hope.

8. Your sex life is telling you the above is correct. You can't fake that...

9. Your WW is a snake...you are more at risk the longer you stay with her. This isn't over and the next one will be worse. This time, she almost took it to the point that the OM would murder you. Next time...

I say the above, not to piss you off...but because I think you need to hear it.

Shoot the messenger. I expect you to dislike what I said...but I would want someone to say it to me if I was doing what you are doing.

Good luck. Sleep with the bedroom door locked...alone.

^^^^^^ this...

and not forgiving can be interpreted as strength as well. We all get to determine what it means.

They can interpret it anyway they want. Many may see it as a sign of weakness instead of what it is: a sign of strength.

My point is that someone who cheated that is still of the wayward mindset, they WILL see this as weakness. And in that case, isn't that just inviting more trouble to come?

WalkingHome:

I appreciate your response and even respect your point of view. However I, as you expect, totally disagree with your response. The thought process you presented seems to be tangential, off in so many irrelevant directions (my thoughts, and probably my thoughts alone).

You sound like a good man who experienced something that you were just not built to process, something so alien to you that your mind and body sought to shape it into a context you could understand. Your filter was religion.

My filter is not religion, it is faith.

However, Christianity doesn't call for you to keep your cheating wife or for you to stay with her in any capacity.

No, Christianity doesn't require any of that. But it also doesn't insist on the complete opposite.

It does not require you to continue to support her or similar. You imply that it does...you throw out a lot of talk on forgiveness...but you conveniently ignore biblical references that don't support the course of action that you wanted from day

I am not implying anything of the sort. As someone who is well versed in Scripture, I consider the whole counsel of God. Which verses have I ignored? Am I missing out on only relying to verses that promote your opinion? It sounds to me that you approach my situation with your own pretext. This tends to lead to verses taken out of context or inly using verses that seem to fit your circumstances.

The religiosity is a cloak for doing what you wanted to do anyway...one that gives you faux justification, moral superiority, and the aura of being the "good man". Respectfully, this is nonsense.

Preposterous. Your gift of seeing into the heart and mind of others is failing you today. I believe this is part of your pretext. Respectfully, your comments about are nonsense, They come off as faux justification for your stance, with a definite leaning toward moral superiority, and the aura of being the most intelligent man in the room.

If you want R...R. Don't wrap it in Christianity. Christianity doesn't require what you are doing.

It seems to me that you have no idea what Christianity requires. Have you read Galatians lately? I prefer to walk in the Spirit, not the flesh; to walk by faith not by sight. If my actions are so offensive to you why do you bother to waste your time reading my posts? Go your own way, do what you want; justify your actins in anyway you see fit. I'll stick to my course.

She is fairly remorseless. You have said so yourself. In posts, you regularly point out that she largely doesn't get it.

So what? What's it to you? What difference does it make whether I forgive her as she has been or forgive her when you insist it's time?

She was wittingly or unwittingly setting you up to be murdered. Her and OM talked about your death, assuming control of your money/business. She had sex with him after this.

Is your point simply "How can I forgive someone who acted in this way?" Once again, let me be perfectly clear, I forgive her, not based on who she is/was, but who I am. this doesn't make me superior to you or anyone else. It makes me consistent with who I really am and my relationship with Christ through faith. Your legalism just doesn't work for me.

She was part of a morally bankrupt business that is facing criminal prosecution...she was a part of this enterprise. This shows her moral character...in addition to her cheating on you with another employee that was literally stealing from elderly people.

So what...It shows her moral character at that time, but it doesn't brand her for life.

You say she signed over assets to you as an act of contrition. Surely, you know that this means absolutely nothing. You are married. All assets are legally considered joint, regardless of who has their name on them. If you divorce, she is legally entitled to 50% of all marital assets...and these are marital assets, regardless of whatever she signed. She will claim that you threatened her and she signed under duress. As such, her act was meaningless.

Again, so what? You should start your own psychic network as you seem to know what another person will choose to do in the future.

She self medicates with drugs and alcohol... This is all kinds of bad, more so for someone of her age. She should have effective coping strategies by her age that don't involve drugs or alcohol. RED FLAG.

She is not really in to alcohol. Are you the current arbiter of what is an acceptable coping strategy? Nonsense. I don't defend her previous usage of weed. But I also don't condemn her to hell for it.

You are heavily fixated on the idea of your marriage, to the extent that it blinds you to the reality of your marriage and what it has become in reality. To comprehend this, you have to look at reality, not your mental vision of hope.

This is an example of you once again flexing your morally superior mental muscles. I am blind to nothing in my marriage. I see it for what it was, is and what it could be. As for you, your paradigm is obviously different from reality.

Your sex life is telling you the above is correct. You can't fake that...

Have you been hanging out in my bedroom lately?

Your WW is a snake...you are more at risk the longer you stay with her. This isn't over and the next one will be worse. This time, she almost took it to the point that the OM would murder you. Next time.

Ah, resulting to calling my wife names? I'll take my chances with her and let the chips fall where they may. But thank you for your declaration of what the future holds. Can you give me the numbers for tonight's Powerball drawing?

I say the above, not to piss you off...but because I think you need to hear it.

I am not pissed off. In order for someone to piss me off or hurt my feelings, I have to respect them. While I respect your opinions, I can't say that I respect you. I don't mean that to be hurtful, but I can't see that taking the advice of someone who comes across as a psychic or faux expert on Christianity will benefit me in the slightest way.

Shoot the messenger. I expect you to dislike what I said...but I would want someone to say it to me if I was doing what you are doing.

No need to shoot the messenger. You are entitled to any opinion you hold.

Forgiveness is a choice. I have chosen to forgive my wife. I wish I had come to the conclusion earlier. My forgiveness is unconditional and comes without expectations. You don't have to like or respect me or my thoughts on forgiveness. But you also don't need to get your panties in a wad. If your formula for success doesn't include forgiveness then stick with your formula and I'll stick with mine.

I walk away from your post unconvinced by your invectives. But I do thank you for posting your thoughts.

[This message edited by 36yearsgone at 11:47 AM, March 11th (Wednesday)]

I really needed this this week. Thank you for posting. I have stood by my wife during this entire ordeal, showing love and compassion where I can. I feel that she deserves this as a human, and as someone I will always care about regardless of the ringer she chose to put me through with her actions. Unconditional love. Many do not practice it unless there is something in return.

Sometimes leaving a spouse you love is the most loving thing you can do for them. I got to the point where I knew staying was just enabling him to continue to lie, hide, sneak, etc. If I had a willing spouse who wanted to take a hard look at WHY he was able to live this double life, and put himself so far above those he claimed to love, I would have tried, tried and tried some more to make it work.

I feel I have forgiven my XH, but I still don't trust him. He still lies to me and I have to forgive him over and over. But I do. He is broken, as we all are. I feel safer from a distance.

I don't feel there is unconditional love for a spouse. My love comes with conditions. If he cheats again I will STOP LOVING him and love myself more. It may take a while but it will be better for me if I don't romantically love someone who is destructive to me. Period. The end. I wouldn't even love him as a friend. And the opposite of love doesn't mean dramatically hate either. It's probably indifference.

All this talk of unconditional love and forgiveness like it's something that makes us great. For me, it doesn't. I GET TO DECIDE who I love and forgive. And it doesn't make me weaker if I don't.

I feel I have forgiven my XH, but I still don't trust him. He still lies to me and I have to forgive him over and over. But I do. He is broken, as we all are. I feel safer from a distance.

Nothing says that forgiveness requires any further action on your part. You aren't required to live with him, believe him, or suffer further infidelity.

People in this thread are replacing the word acceptance for forgiveness. I don't believe the terms are synonymous. It is possible to accept and not forgive, just as it is possible to forgive and not accept.

All this talk of unconditional love and forgiveness like it's something that makes us great. For me, it doesn't. I GET TO DECIDE who I love and forgive. And it doesn't make me weaker if I don't.

It doesn't make us great. It doesn't make me great. For me, unconditional love and forgiveness is my choice. I don't mean to imply that this is a "one size fits all" formula. Yes, you get to decide who you love and forgive.

I made an unclear comment in the original post about nor forgiving leads to cheating on yourself. That comment is too vague and too easily misinterpreted. To clarify, what I should have said is this: If you choose not to forgive you may be cheating yourself of opportunities to heal yourself.

More and more I am beginning to believe that, for me personally, a disclaimer needs to be included in every post I make. It would state: "This post may or may not apply to you or your situation at all. It may not work for you. It is not meant to hurt you. It is not meant to imply moral or intellectual superiority. It is one person's view and/or opinion only."

36 - Please stop trying to tell people how to be Christian. You know all kinds of people are in this faith with us.

Lets focus on why forgiveness is dangerous early on. You have read lots of new BS here on SI. Taking action is scary. It is flipping the table of their lives forever. Forgiveness is releasing the anger. Anger guards against sadness and inaction. Anger forces change. In the early stages, anger is needed to push away a huge chunk of your life and improve your situation. Forgiveness is tough and should be. I see it as hand in hand with acceptance, but splitting hairs on language isn't really going to help people. Forgiveness early on is like rug sweeping.

Would you have pushed for all the information about your WW AP talking about killing you?

Would you have pushed for the Post-Nup/signing over the majority of the assets built up during the marriage?

Would you have isolated yourself to get all the anger out without turning it on your WW? (That is what you would have done early on.)

Anger and forgiveness are opposite ends of scales in my eyes. Eventually you find a middle ground. You are still angry, but you have forgiven because you don't want vengeance.

That is the acceptance versus forgiveness you talk about. Saying you don't accept something is still not 100% forgiveness.

You will get there. It is time your WW tried to soften your heart a bit. Is being home making you realize what was missing when you were alone?

Please stop trying to tell people how to be Christian. You know all kinds of people are in this faith with us.

Wow. There's an uninformed over reaction if I ever saw one. I am not telling anyone how to be anything at all. Faith is a personal thing. But don't take my comments to mean I am insisting that you or anyone else live your life exactly like mine. Mine is shaky enough. Calm down.

Lets focus on why forgiveness is dangerous early on. You have read lots of new BS here on SI. Taking action is scary. It is flipping the table of their lives forever.

Focus on anything you want in anyway you want. If you find forgiveness dangerous early on, then don't forgive. My wishing I had forgiven early on is in know way indicative of the way others must act or believe. It is merely my opinion of something I wish I had done. It's not a doctrinal statement and probably won't appear on any church bulletin.

Forgiveness is releasing the anger. Anger guards against sadness and inaction. Anger forces change. In the early stages, anger is needed to push away a huge chunk of your life and improve your situation.

Just one more explanation of forgiveness.

Forgiveness is tough and should be. I see it as hand in hand with acceptance, but splitting hairs on language isn't really going to help people.

Forgiveness early on is like rug sweeping.

I reject that notion, though I have heard it frequently from people here with whom I have great respect. DISCLAIMER: the following comment is my personal opinion and belief. It is not a suggestion that you must accept this opinion or suffer eternal damnation, public disgrace, excommunication or any other negative result because you disagree: Forgiveness does not have to include rugs weeping.

Would you have pushed for all the information about your WW AP talking about killing you?

I would and did. I even got the police involved. Forgiveness does not require me ignoring circumstance.

Would you have pushed for the Post-Nup/signing over the majority of the assets built up during the marriage?

At this point I actually regret the post-nup.

Would you have isolated yourself to get all the anger out without turning it on your WW? (That is what you would have done early on.)

Not sure of your question as my wife was never in any danger from me. With the possible exception of her living under a different financial situation.

Anger and forgiveness are opposite ends of scales in my eyes. Eventually you find a middle ground. You are still angry, but you have forgiven because you don't want vengeance.

Maybe.

That is the acceptance versus forgiveness you talk about. Saying you don't accept something is still not 100% forgiveness.

Maybe. But once again, I am not applying my beliefs, whether they be of faith or merely flesh, onto anyone.

You will get there. It is time your WW tried to soften your heart a bit. Is being home making you realize what was missing when you were alone?

I don't know how to answer that question.

Let me bottom line this based on the opening of your response.

Yes, I am a person of faith. Faith to me is personal not sociological. There is no intent on my part to get anyone to conform to my personal view of Christianity. This is not the forum for a religious debate. And I am not here to debate religion. I share what I share as someone who has learned through his personal experience. Nothing more and nothing less. Take it or leave it, but don't accuse me of trying to tell anyone here how to be a Christian. that accusation is patently untrue and impractical in this environment.

Infidelity is indeed a choice.

But I am not so sure forgiveness is.

To me, love and forgiveness are matters of one's heart and mind. Not a decision like deciding on which fast food place to eat at.

If I simply "decide" to love someone, to me that's a decision devoid of the feelings, emotions and other internal workings that offers up love.

Maybe this is all just semantics, but if I go to someone who has murdered my child and tell them, "I have made a decision to love you", am I really all in on this love? Or is it ILYBINILWY. And what does that really look like?