SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

If this is an exit affair, she's going to drag you through hell no matter what you do, so.. act in your own best interest using your best judgment.

She keeps saying that she doesn't want anything form me 'except to make sure the kids are taken care of'. She wants everything 50/50. Of course, only time will tell if her words match her actions...ya know, like 'Til Death do us part.'

So, basically, the only reason I'm keeping it together and not destroying her and her reputation is those 2 kids.

Yeah, I think part of being a strong and serious man is thinking like this. You don't have to howl at the moon and punch drywall to own your anger and rage.

Been a couple of weeks. She wouldn't really talk at first so I ended up leaving her a letter laying out how I was feeling at the time. She responded by another letter (Lying to me again. Said she was staying at her Cousin's place for the weekend, guess where she actually was most of the time?). The 'conversations' have been pretty one-sided as far as what we want. I wanted to work on us, she accelerated the divorce. Again, now I know why.

Since then, it's been mostly lawyer talk and divorce. I found out about the cheating last week and realized how many lies she has been telling once I knew for sure. I had been suspicious for a while.

OK, good. And do you feel like you have a solid sense of what the 180 looks like in practice? Do you feel like you're "doing" anything right now, or are you basically floating along on her river?

Also, I missed it: are you separated in-house, or is she totally gone?

I seem to be asking you a lot of questions, but I have one more: have you ever said something to her to the effect of "I've come to realize that you're gone, and while I'm truly sad about that, I've found that sharing my wife is much worse than losing her. So I'm happy to proceed with the divorce, and you are fully free to be openly together with AP. I won't fight it anymore. Let's talk when we can about finances and kid stuff and make this as painless, equitable, and amicable as possible." Have you said something like that?

If not, have you thought about how it could change your course if you *did* say something like this to her?

[This message edited by Okokok at 8:11 PM, June 13th (Saturday)]

Hasn't anyone explained to you yet that there's a manual named Cheater 101? It describes their behavior to a t. And while every situation and family and story is different, they're also all the same.

Your WW is a cheater and that's why she behaves like she does. You will never understand it because you have morals and ethics and a spine. None of us understands it. That's why we all stick together here at S.I., because the worlds we were living in suddenly became madhouses where nothing made sense.

You've been given excellent advice. While you're focussing on why she's a cheater, she's making plans to move on with her life and at the same time, probably figuring out every way possible to get the kids away from you and take all your money. While you're sitting there asking "why?", she's got you right where she wants you.

It's time to do the 180 and do it hard. It's time to get your own attorney and make sure you get the best one in town, no matter the cost or you'll pay the price for the rest of your life. You're already in a precarious situation by still hoping to reconcile because she could conceivably use it to convince the courts that you forgave her and that the affair isn't really the reason for the divorce. If your state allows you to sue for alienation of affection, etc., go for it. Get everything that is lawfully yours even if it's more than you need or feel is fair. You can put it in the bank for your children's futures because it's pretty obvious that she won't be worrying about that.

The other thing I want to comment on is her telling the kids she's not doing anything wrong. You have to correct that but I'm not sure how because you also have to be careful not to badmouth her. If you have a counselor, ask for help with that one. If you don't have a counselor, you really should get one. Preferably one who specializes in codependency.

I wish you well. You're obviously an intelligent, hard-working, moral and kind man so I have no doubt you'll be fine in the end but just please make this journey a little easier for yourself by listening closely to the people here who understand all too well what you're going through and are sharing their wisdom, strength and knowledge with you.

[This message edited by josiep at 8:37 PM, June 13th (Saturday)]

Let her go. Do it with as little angst as possible. She’s gone. Don’t make things difficult. This is for you, not her. Every woman i know who had an affair left. None of them cheated just because. They all left for their APs except one. All the bs were good guys and didn’t deserve being cheated on. The women said they married for the wrong reasons and knew their husbands were good guys. It stinks. You did nothing wrong. Please don’t look for reasons. The only one I can give you is that she found someone else. I am so sorry.

Topic: Can you tell if it's a Midlife Crisis or and Exit?

Does it matter?

And do you feel like you have a solid sense of what the 180 looks like in practice? Do you feel like you're "doing" anything right now, or are you basically floating along on her river?

Also, I missed it: are you separated in-house, or is she totally gone?

I seem to be asking you a lot of questions, but I have one more: have you ever said something to her to the effect of "I've come to realize that you're gone, and while I'm truly sad about that, I've found that sharing my wife is much worse than losing her. So I'm happy to proceed with the divorce, and you are fully free to be openly together with AP. I won't fight it anymore. Let's talk when we can about finances and kid stuff and make this as painless, equitable, and amicable as possible." Have you said something like that?

I read through the 180 yesterday a couple of times. I have an idea of it but it'll take some time for it to click into practice.

We are not in-house. I'm here 4 days a week and she is here for 3.

No, I haven't. I haven't really come up with the words that will give her 'my permission' to screw another guy and close the door to us on my end. That may take a little bit yet for me. I've told her I want the divorce pushed as fast as possible but I don't plan on saying anything to her that will in any way condone her actions or allow her to interpret that I'm allowing it. That's a tough message to get right.

Hasn't anyone explained to you yet that there's a manual named Cheater 101? It describes their behavior to a t. And while every situation and family and story is different, they're also all the same.

This is a thing?

I read through the 180 yesterday a couple of times. I have an idea of it but it'll take some time for it to click into practice.

When you can do it--REALLY do it--you will begin to see things going differently for you.

The first step is to commit (to yourself) that you should try to do it. The next is to get advice on how to start, what to do in certain situations, etc.

Most new BSs believe if they do the 180 they will push their WS away or that it's "not for them," so they get too scared to do it, and things just keep falling apart around them.

No, I haven't. I haven't really come up with the words that will give her 'my permission' to screw another guy and close the door to us on my end. That may take a little bit yet for me. I've told her I want the divorce pushed as fast as possible but I don't plan on saying anything to her that will in any way condone her actions or allow her to interpret that I'm allowing it. That's a tough message to get right.

Understood. I certainly didn't mean to give the impression that you should give "your permission" or "condone" her affair. Maybe a poor choice of words on my part.

Part of doing the 180 is really taking that leap of faith to do the other part of your statement here:

close the door to us on my end.

I get it -- that's REALLY hard. And, knowing what I know about infidelity and how you're likely feeling right now, I can imagine that you think any number of things about it: that it will push her away, that it will ruin everything, that I and others here just want you to ditch your wife because all we care about is divorce and we hate cheating spouses, etc.

But none of that is true. There's a pretty common saying around here: "you have to be willing to lose the marriage to have a chance at saving it."

It's a very true statement, but its meaning often gets lost in the storm.

You will come to understand it (or not) in your own time and in your own way. But I would ask you this: how would you say your approach over the last several weeks has made things go for you? Just something to reflect on.

Closed doors can be opened again. Open doors, in the midst of infidelity, only fill the house with poisoned air.

~

In your situation, your wife seems very far gone, and your marriage seems very nearly toast. She has already filed for D, and she's moved out(?). I know that's absolutely agonizing and not what you want, and I'm sorry.

I can also sense that, if things could go your way, you'd still want a chance to work it out. I certainly have seen sicker cats than this get well...not many, but it does happen.

Big question: have you thought about what things could/would look like if your wife suddenly "woke up" and "came back" tomorrow? Like, AP falls off the face of the earth, and now she's "back?" In that "perfect-world" scenario, what do you think life would look like then? And would you even want it? Have you thought about what the next several years would look like after that?

Anyway, things will keep progressing the way they are with your wife unless something drastic changes. It's already been discussed on your threads, but just to recap, there are three major things that could help put a stop to this affair:

1. Exposing the affair to work (is that possible? Might not be, and I get that)

2. Exposing the affair to the other betrayed spouse (is that possible? Is there an OBS?) (EDIT: I see in another thread you have said he is recently divorced. It's possible that you could gain a lot from reaching out to his ex-wife, but that's another discussion)

3. Making a statement kind of like what I outlined in my last post (you don't have to accept/condone), and then doing a hard 180, and REALLY committing to the idea that as long as your wife has a boyfriend, as much as you fucking hate it, you have to proceed toward divorce because it's absolutely not OK for you to be sharing your wife as a married man. Inwardly and outwardly you have to take those very difficult steps.

To be clear: the 180 is for *you*. It's not a "trick" to freak out your wife and get her to change her tune. That doesn't happen every time, and even when it does, it doesn't always stick, and often it's not good enough for the BS in the end.

But it is a very common side-effect of a well-implemented 180. When the BS "closes the door" and goes another way, the WS often scrambles.

Again, that may happen, and it may not. And if it does, it may not be enough. May be too late at this point.

But I know for certain that nothing changes if, you know, nothing changes.

I wonder: do you believe what I'm saying here, or do you think I've got it wrong?

~

The other thing about #3 above is that, even if wife rides a unicorn into the sunset with her new boyfriend and never finds her way "back" to you, you will still be changing your mindset and finding peace in the midst of this absolute hell. That's good for you, and it's good for your kids, no matter where you end up.

Please don't convince yourself that by somehow going another way, skipping the 180 and just continuing to keep the door open for your WW that things will suddenly change. They won't. It's very clear to her that if she decided she wants to come back, you'd take her back, and you might even take most of the blame for her affair. There is nothing more empowering to an actively-wayward person, or to an affair, than that.

[This message edited by Okokok at 8:09 AM, June 14th (Sunday)]

Hasn't anyone explained to you yet that there's a manual named Cheater 101? It describes their behavior to a t. And while every situation and family and story is different, they're also all the same.

This is a thing?

Well, yes and no. Those of us who have endured infidelity know it must be out there somewhere because we're constantly amazed at all the things Cheaters have in common, the way they behave before and after being discovered, the words they say to us to justify their actions, the change in their eyes from how they used to look at us before their dirty little secret was revealed. It's uncanny so we believe there's a manual out there that they're all following. None of us has seen it or read it but we just "know" because otherwise, why do they all act and look and speak the same????

That said, maybe there's a manual for the Betrayed as well. We do a lot of the same things. So I guess it probably all boils down to human nature but is manifested differently by people with ethics and morals than by those without.

But the bottom line is, please listen to the experienced people of S.I. cuz we've all experienced the same things and we've all made our own mistakes and we all understand how we're all the same even though we're as diverse a group as their ever was. Everything that's being said to you is because we've learned the hard way and are trying to help you get to the other side easier than most of us did. We KNOW what she's like, we KNOW how you feel, we KNOW it's all crazy and we KNOW how to get through it and we KNOW that if you can follow the repair manual that we're writing, you'll be happier sooner rather than later.

Your wife is no one special. There is nothing special about her or her actions or her situation. She's a cheater, plain and simple. A cheater, through and through. A run of the mill everyday cheater. The fact that you love her doesn't make her special. Nothing makes her special. Your situation is not special and is no different than what the rest of us have gone through.

So, if you believe me, I have 2 more things to say. Your wife is gone and is not coming back. And second, what she told your children is not acceptable and I again encourage you to get some help from a pastor or a counselor to talk to them about it and make sure they understand that Mommy is behaving badly and that what she's doing is wrong. And I'll go one step further: your kids know that already but they need a grownup to tell them that they're right. Good mothers who are doing nothing wrong don't abandon their children 4 days a week to run around like a whore. They know that; don't let them be gaslighted.

You may want to consider sticking with one thread. So people who would like to help you through this dont have to jump between threads to find out info.

I get it -- that's REALLY hard. And, knowing what I know about infidelity and how you're likely feeling right now, I can imagine that you think any number of things about it: that it will push her away, that it will ruin everything, that I and others here just want you to ditch your wife because all we care about is divorce and we hate cheating spouses, etc.

I 100% believe most if not everyone here is for the same purpose. To lift each other up and help each other through these times. I don't think anyone really is just all about ditching, more helping to transition. But thank you for saying that.

how would you say your approach over the last several weeks has made things go for you? Just something to reflect on.

In the beginning, and up until very recently, not well. I've been runnign around tryingt o fix things and it has not done anything except hurt me more. I'm at a place right now, in this moment, where I'm just done with her. And want to move on. Now, I know that I will flip flop a lot over the next few months. But listening to my kids this weekend has been an eye opener also. She continues to defend herself to them and they aren't buying it one bit. They know the morals that have been instilled in them and know she is lying, and full of crap to even try to tell them that she isn't doing anything wrong. Moreso, it's been you all over the past few days and listening to your stories/advice that have helped me make a transition in my own mind about this.

Big question: have you thought about what things could/would look like if your wife suddenly "woke up" and "came back" tomorrow?

At this point, and again, in this moment, I would have an incredibly difficult time wanting her back. I think it's the idea of her that I want back. But she has changed into a different person completely so that person is dead.

I'm going out with the kids so I will answer more in depth later today. Thanks all!

Your last post is awesome and indicates to me that you're getting yourself into a healthy headspace. That's great.

Have a great day with the kids!

1) Do you have your own lawyer yet? Is s/he/they negotiating a settlement?

2) You say you're with the kids 4 days/week, and she's with them 3. But you also sem to say you're with the kids during workdays. Are you with the kids 5 days a week and 4 nights, and your W gets weekends to herself? If it's 5 days or all weekends off for your W, I urge you to negotiate a childcare agreement that is more equitable ASAP.

I recommend looking into the 2-5-5-2 system.

3) I find the 180 doc to be filled with contradictions. The simplified 180 is, IMO, a lot better: https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=598080.

4) All you know about your W is what she says and does, and you can't really trust what she says. All the data you've presented is that she wants out of your M. It doesn't matter whether you call it 'exit A' or 'MLC'.

You claim she says she wants nothing from you. Dude, take full advantage of that right now. If shes going full steam ahead with the divorce, you can have the upper hand here. Take it! She may change her mind today, tomorrow, in a month? But if she agrees to give you everything. Take full advantage of it.

1. Exposing the affair to work (is that possible? Might not be, and I get that)

2. Exposing the affair to the other betrayed spouse (is that possible? Is there an OBS?) (EDIT: I see in another thread you have said he is recently divorced. It's possible that you could gain a lot from reaching out to his ex-wife, but that's another discussion)

3. Making a statement kind of like what I outlined in my last post (you don't have to accept/condone), and then doing a hard 180, and REALLY committing to the idea that as long as your wife has a boyfriend, as much as you fucking hate it, you have to proceed toward divorce because it's absolutely not OK for you to be sharing your wife as a married man. Inwardly and outwardly you have to take those very difficult steps.

I wonder: do you believe what I'm saying here, or do you think I've got it wrong?

Okay, we just got back form the beach so here's part 2 to your questions. Which, by the way, I really appreciate you putting out there. It's made me think a bit.

1) She's keeping it a secret there. Quick backstory. She works with her Dad at a Country Club. He did the exact same thing to his ex-wife, affair and working together included. So, as conservative as all the members are, I don't think they will care.

2) Not sure if I want to go down that road. What upside is there to it? If they are actually divorced, as I think they are, (and I am genuinely asking, not being flip) what good does that do me?

3) I honestly don't care any more if she wants to come back. My daughter said to me this morning out of the blue, "Dad, if she tried to come back I don't think I want you to take her back. She's done this to you twice, she will do it again and you deserve better than her and her Bull$*it." But I do think I will need to put it to my WW that once this divorce is final, there is no reason for us to talk unless it has to do with the kids or an emergency of some kind.

4) I do think you've got a lot of this correct and are reading the situation pretty well.

But the bottom line is, please listen to the experienced people of S.I. cuz we've all experienced the same things and we've all made our own mistakes and we all understand how we're all the same even though we're as diverse a group as their ever was. Everything that's being said to you is because we've learned the hard way and are trying to help you get to the other side easier than most of us did. We KNOW what she's like, we KNOW how you feel, we KNOW it's all crazy and we KNOW how to get through it and we KNOW that if you can follow the repair manual that we're writing, you'll be happier sooner rather than later.

Thank you so much for that.

1) Do you have your own lawyer yet? Is s/he/they negotiating a settlement?

2) You say you're with the kids 4 days/week, and she's with them 3. But you also sem to say you're with the kids during workdays. Are you with the kids 5 days a week and 4 nights, and your W gets weekends to herself? If it's 5 days or all weekends off for your W, I urge you to negotiate a childcare agreement that is more equitable ASAP.

I recommend looking into the 2-5-5-2 system.

3) I find the 180 doc to be filled with contradictions. The simplified 180 is, IMO, a lot better: https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=598080.

4) All you know about your W is what she says and does, and you can't really trust what she says. All the data you've presented is that she wants out of your M. It doesn't matter whether you call it 'exit A' or 'MLC'.crying

1) Yes, I do. He's a friend who luckily is also a badass Criminal Defense lawyer. He's handling the divorce for me and does do them regularly.

2) So, I come home Friday morning and generally leave Monday night. SO I have them 2 work days and the weekend. She is home Monday PM until Friday around 6AM. But during that time, spends about a total of 10-12 hours with them.

3) Thank you. I will look at this tonight.

4) Honestly, I don't really care anymore myself. My kids and I spent 2 hours talking again this morning and they don't want to see me go through this again. They also don't want to be a part of anything that has to do with this other guy, no matter how much she is trying to push them into it...and she is. It seems like she is trying to fast forward into a brand new family unit after knowing this guy for a couple months...crazy. She's lost her damned mind. The kids are so mad and frustrated with her and she's in La-La land thinking everything is fantastic. She doesn't even see how much hostility they have towards her.

2) Not sure if I want to go down that road. What upside is there to it? If they are actually divorced, as I think they are, (and I am genuinely asking, not being flip) what good does that do me?

There is a moral argument (she would deserve to know), an affair-killing argument, and an information-gathering argument if they are in fact married.

If they're not married or together in any way (seems like you're unsure?), it's really not her circus to deal with at all. It's possible, though, if you were to talk to her that she could say something like "Oh yeah! They've been doing that for three years!" or something like that.

Not sure that would matter at all at this point for you.

"Dad, if she tried to come back I don't think I want you to take her back. She's done this to you twice, she will do it again and you deserve better than her and her Bull$*it."

I guess I missed that this is a second affair. This appears to be the story of your life, sadly.

How old are these kids, by the way?

I think where you're at currently--this feeling of not caring--is honestly really good. Definitely read up on the 180 and be sure you're on point with that. Otherwise you seem to be doing great.

Good news for you, if you can wrap your head around it at all: you have an awesome life waiting for you on the other side of this shit. That's good for you *and* your kids.

Seriously.

They are 14 (daughter) and 10 (son). And believe me they both feel the same way about her.

My daughter said to me this morning out of the blue, "Dad, if she tried to come back I don't think I want you to take her back. She's done this to you twice, she will do it again and you deserve better than her and her Bull$*it."

My kids and I spent 2 hours talking again this morning and they don't want to see me go through this again.

When children are begging a parent to stand up for him/herself, that parent needs to listen. Do you understand how much you can mess your kids up if you don't listen and get back with your wife? I will just tell you what I've seen in real life: your daughter will lose all respect for you and most probably all men in general. Please show her that strong men exist and can be counted on. Did your wife run around with the first guy too, right in front of your kids?

Good god, man--how are you hoping and begging to get back with her after she's done this before? What did she do to win you back after the first time? No, no, no. Please show your kids that not all adults are f-cked up by walking away with your head held high.

Is it possible that your wife is a narcissist? And have you been reading up on codependency?

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 8:00 PM, June 14th (Sunday)]