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But it hasnt worked tbh. So it either changes or i put up with it.. And putting up with it isnt an option anymore..

Well, that a pretty clear statement. But we know its the correct one. She doesn't believe you will stick to it and until she actually believes its either get rid of the boyfriend or you get rid of her, she will not stop talking to him.

Not sure what the laws are where you are. First step is to see an attorney AFTER you tell her the next time she plans to see her boyfriend will be the last time you two stay married. No negotiations!!!! But do not say that is you are going to backtrack.

She has given you two distinct choices. Either you divorce her or she keeps her boyfriend. YOU must make the next move because she is in control.

Have you read "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass? It may provide some insight as to why NC is considered a basic requirement.

The AP is not your friend or a friend of the M. He - and anyone who knew about the A and didn't tell you - is not a friend of you or the M. All of them gotta go.

So you essentially gave her permission to go have sex with him some more. You do know that, right?

Brother, it HAS to be NC or D. There is no middle ground.

At this point and after all you have allowed her to do, I don't think the "asking her to go NC FOREVER with OM or it means D" statement will be as effective as just filing for D and let her react to the imminent end of the M, even if she sends that NC FOREVER text, I wouldn't stop the D process until I know for sure that the A has ended, that NC has been established and verified (she needs to agree to full on demand access to her phone and all electronic devices and passwords FOREVER), just don't make it easy for her, let her think she barely avoided D this time.

And that's just a first step for the daunting task ahead to try to R with NO guarantees, it typically takes 2-5 years with a fully remorseful WS doing all the necessary work to help restore the destroyed M, right now you simply don't have that by a very long shot, your WW is light years away from being remorseful while she puts contact with OM over you, as long as there's contact the A continues, right now your M is a sham and by now you must have realizded "living on hopium" is not sustainable, but if you want to try the ultimatum way this is how I would do it, tonight tell her she's got 30 seconds to send that NC FOREVER text to OM, short and to the point (no sweet goodbyes), no questions asked, no negotiations PERIOD. I hope you take action tonight and I hope you comeback tomorrow and tell us how it went, if you don't do anything, well no need to tell us, we have a pretty good idea of what's most likely to happen or better yet continue happening. Man up and do what needs to be done TONIGHT.

[This message edited by Buster123 at 8:06 PM, June 24th (Wednesday)]

Thank you all for your guidance.

I confronted her with it last night.. Knowing full well that she will try and twist it around and pull my past mistakes to guilt me into allowing things to continue.

We were up till 4am.

I have told her i will be contacting a lawyer and initiating D, and that her actions to this point (not just the affair) are what led me here.

She told me there and then she will give him up.. But i am continiung today to see a lawyer and will continue this process until i am SURE it is over..

I have messaged the AP family to tell them not to expect any further contact from us and the reasons why..

I got an hours sleep and am now trying to work.. But feel better than i have in a long long time..

StrugglingCJ

I’m certain that if you look far enough you can find someone that had an affair, the affair is over, and the affair partners are still in contact with there not being ANY infidelity going on. It’s rare, but I’m sure that if you query enough people you will find those cases.

Even rarer is the case where the above can be found and the BS spouse (or spouses) are OK with it.

So basically, what you are asking is akin to asking how likely I am to find zebra’s in Essex. Probably not many, but I guess there is some game-park or zoo where you might find one. But on a daily, realistic basis then no. By asking for the situation where the ex AP spouse is OK with the ongoing contact… it’s more like how many three-eyed zebras can you find in Essex.

The issue isn’t necessarily whether your WW is still having some emotional or physical interaction with the OM. The issue is that YOU don’t feel safe. YOU don’t feel she’s committed.

I’m not placing the onus on you by stating that. Your reactions are normal and expected. The onus is on her to create the transparent conditions YOU need to reconcile.

This will only end when you put your foot to the floor.

Tell her she’s free to interact with OM as much as she wants, but not as your wife.

Basically you allowed her to have both the benefits with being married and a lover.

In her head (even if they were no longer physical) the affair continued.

How do I know? Because she's so desperate to continue contact with the OM. That's not a 'friend' that's a lover.

Under the circumstances and your past permissiveness it's unlikely she will take you seriously. She's addicted to the high she gets from the OM's attention.

She'll only go NC when she's convinced it's either: NC or divorce.

BTW: if they can communicate within the game, then she needs to stop playing the game (another consequence of her decision to sexualize the friend).

I'm writing to ask you to turn your thinking around. One of the issues for co-d people is maintaining boundaries. One of the issues in your M is that neither you nor your W maintained effective boundaries.

To R, you have to heal yourself - get authentic and process the pain of being betrayed. Your W can support you, but no one can do your healing work for you.

Your W has to heal herself - get authentic and process the pain of betraying and change from cheater to good partner. You can support her, but no one can do your healing work for her.

You can't R if your W just wants to stay M. She has to do the work to heal herself. She needs to embrace, for example, the need to go NC - not for you, because your pain is yours to deal with - but for her, because she can't R unless she realizes that cheating hurts her.

Up to now, you've been acting as if this om is the problem. He's not. The problem is that your W somehow decided that cheating was a good thing to do. Unless she changes her thinking and behavior for the future, IMO, she'll be at risk of pretty easily betraying you again.

I'm really sorry you're here. I've got to ask, though, do you really want her?

She is still fogged up by wayward thinking. She is going NC only because you've threatened D - which makes me fear she'll break it when the threat recedes. If it doesn't, when the going gets tough in the future, IMO it's too likely that she'll build resentment against you - which could be the cause of another betrayal.

I had to actually begin the D, work with the mediator, and stay separated for a year to see my WH was serious about changing. I had to be done. He kept trying to get out of the doghouse, not fix himself. Until I actually got a D. You will need to keep going and stay strong for her to believe this is really a boundary. You need more firm actions to show you mean business. Finances? Telling family and friends? IC? She needs to be doing lots of things to stop the D. You need more.

Stay strong.

Are you saying that she agreed to NC after you told her you were filing?

And this is the first time you told her that?

I confronted her with it last night.. Knowing full well that she will try and twist it around and pull my past mistakes to guilt me into allowing things to continue.

So it took you until 4 AM to get her to agree to stop seeing him??? Not very convincing, sorry

My friend, you have allowed her to openly have an affair with no resistance for i can't remember how long. It doesn't just end and turn out all right after hours of explaining to her why she can't fuck her boyfriend any more.

You doing the calling?? You really think the OM is going to just give up his piece of ass when she didn't participate or tell him in no uncertain terms there is no more contact.

If you don't have her take a number of unannounced polygraph tests you are making as big a mistake as allowing this affair to flourish right in front of you.

I apologize but you need to stop playing mr nice Guy, file for divorce (you can stop it any time you want to), and watch her actions and trust nothing you cannot verify.

So far it took you almost a whole night of browbeating her to have her grudgingly say she would stop in order to placate you. Does not sound like she is all in to me.

CJ, the Co-D in you is strong, and it is the first thing that you will need to address, or you will never be able to extricate yourself from this tragedy of a M.

If you do not make the effort to change for YOURSELF, the visit to the lawyer will be for naught, as you will probably cave in, and let your WW do her usual thing of disrespecting you.

After all, why should she respect someone who has no respect for himself? Your WW has no maternal instinct towards you, so don't think that she will try and help you out of your funk.

You will have to find the energy and courage to do that. You will have to pull yourself out of the hole you are in. If your WW decides to give a shit, her help can be considered cheer-leading from the sides only. Do not depend on her for the major help.

If you do not do this, then my next thing would be to ask you "So, when is she off to the next 'music festival'?"

Edit to add: Sorry, forgot to answer your question on NC. How essential is NC? Extremely.

[This message edited by RocketRaccoon at 1:13 AM, June 26th (Friday)]

I have told her i will be contacting a lawyer and initiating D, and that her actions to this point (not just the affair) are what led me here.

She told me there and then she will give him up.. But i am continiung today to see a lawyer and will continue this process until i am SURE it is over..

At least you did something and will see a lawyer, don't stop now and finish the process, file for D and only CONSIDER stopping it after months of verification and hard work from your WW, and EXPOSE her with ALL family and close friends, tell her to apologize to them for her huge betrayal, don't make it easy for her, let her face the music, it helps with remorse which is essential for a successful R, don't forget to demand she gets tested for STDs (you should too).

Like BR said, it took you hours of haggling back and forth to try to "convince" her to give up OM, honestly not a good sign and I would just file and not look back on that alone, but that's me, anyway it's a start considering where you're coming from, remember that if she smells even just a whiff of weakness from you it's pretty much game over.

Keep posting frequently, you will need SI's guidance pretty much every step of the way for a good while.

It was a tough night for me, my natural reaction us to avoid a fight.. And hers is to generally push back to get what she wanted.. Made for a long drawn out argument.

I know i am co-d.. I know i had to get over the fear of being D.. She refused to do a timeline.. So i did.. Made me realise how i had actually been treated over time..

I know i havent been perfect, i have lied to her over finances rather than have that hard discussion that we couldn't in the past afford certain things.. But it didnt excuse this behaviour, or her wanting to keep OM even though i told her repeatedly it meant we would never get over her affair.

Initiating D was a huge step for me.. But i am following through with it UNLESS i see concrete consistent change in her behaviour..

I am not going scorched earth as yet, i honestly think it will do alot more damage long term.. Though telling the AP family did help that side..

My kids will be my main concern now.. To make sure they do not suffer too much in the future.. But i am sticking to my guns until this is sorted one way or another.

She also needs to give up her electronic gaming. This was how she first got into her EA/PA. Have her served ASAP. Then she will realise you are Not being a door mat. She will lie and use her children against you to maintain her A. She sounds very selfish and only puts herself first not her family.

One day at a time.

Buffer

You are mistaken if you believe scorched earth doesn’t have its benefits.

I was just like you. I thought I could fix the marriage and “get him to see” what we had. Queen of the “Pick Me” dance for months.

Best thing I ever did was tell my H I was D him on dday2.

Best thing. For me. For my self esteem. For my marriage.

I had those conversations until 4 am. I look back and realize I was being played. He “didn’t know why he wanted a D”. That was a lie b/c he wanted a D to be with the OW.

The day I said “ her or me” he said me. But his actions chose her. He tried to have us all be friends. I refused. He decided he could resume the affair and reconcile at the same time. He was willing to do whatever he could to keep the affair going. Just like your wife.

Until I blew up his fantasy. I refused to be his wife. I refused to play his game. I cut him out of everything. It happened so fast he ended up being blindsided.

Best thing I ever did.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 6:17 AM, June 26th (Friday)]

r her wanting to keep OM even though i told her repeatedly it meant we would never get over her affair.

What in that statement makes you pause on what you need to do????

I almost hesitate to ask, but did she tell you

(1) she wanted to continue to be able to go with him and have sex with him

OR

(2) did she tell you she wanted to be "friends"??

If the answer is 1 and you backtrack at all no one can help you.

If the answer is 2, its bull shit and the affair will continue at some point.

Forget for now about you co dependence. We all know she led you around by the nose and you let her. Can't change that. You have the rest of your life to work on curing your personality traits.

Right now the ONLY thing that matters at all is for YOU to be able to verify that she is not still in contact and is not planning to see him again. Everything else is a non issue.

You I hope realize that with her attitude you are swimming big time upstream as far as the odds of staying married to her. She wants to have her boyfriend and you , period.

You doing the timeline for her was also a mistake. Unless the divorce clock is ticking, she is going to rely on her always getting what she wants to bludgeon you into submission.

You will never know what is happening without a polygraph at some point.

At present, I would ask her pont blank every day

"HAVE YOU BEEN IN TOUCH WITH HIM IN ANY WAY??

And then I would tell her to think carefully about the answer because she is going to get the opportunity to prove it is not a lie.

Your wife wants an open marriage. She had one with your assistance and consent. But it is YOU who have to decide if you can live with that, not her.

one more thing. Stop using your kids as an excuse. Yes its a factor, but plenty of kids are the children of divorce and turn out just fine.

The OM and his family, who by the way should also be no contact with her, at this point probably think your anger will pass and most likely your wife has already told him behind your back just to "cool it".

Without the polygraph you will never know,

It was a tough night for me, my natural reaction us to avoid a fight.. And hers is to generally push back to get what she wanted.. Made for a long drawn out argument.

I know i am co-d.. I know i had to get over the fear of being D.. She refused to do a timeline.. So i did.. Made me realise how i had actually been treated over time..

She needs to give you the complete timeline because SHE has the details. You don't know everything. She does. You can't do her homework for her. She needs to absorb what a selfish person she has been and understand the harm she has caused.

I know i havent been perfect, i have lied to her over finances rather than have that hard discussion that we couldn't in the past afford certain things.. But it didnt excuse this behaviour, or her wanting to keep OM even though i told her repeatedly it meant we would never get over her affair.

You are too timid in this description. Her seeing the OM is causing ongoing harm. This isn't just preventing healing. This is slowly cutting open the same wound.

Initiating D was a huge step for me.. But i am following through with it UNLESS i see concrete consistent change in her behaviour..

I am not going scorched earth as yet, i honestly think it will do alot more damage long term.. Though telling the AP family did help that side..

I am in the minority here I think, but I agree with not going scorched earth until you are well and truly done trying. Even then, she is the mother of your children. I think there is value in staying amicable, even if they are never going to be a safe and healthy partner for you.

My kids will be my main concern now.. To make sure they do not suffer too much in the future.. But i am sticking to my guns until this is sorted one way or another.

Yes. And importantly, they have shown kids in a divorced family do better than kids in an unhappily married family. It can feel like you have "failed" but this isn't your fault. Your wife failed and you are doing the best you can. She has given you two shitty paths. It's up to you to figure out which is less shitty overall.

Thank you all once again... D is still going forward.. My WW seems to be doing the right things.. But I am so hypervigilant I am cautious of anything she says.. So i just watch how she behaved.

She received the papers the other day.. Had a friend of hers here when they arrived.. Who then saw them.. And given her friends propensity to gossip I am sure my wife's secret will be in the public domain soon.. Receiving the papers truly shocked her.. That night for the first time in years she did EVERYTHING.. Kids dinner.. Our dinner.. Tidying up.. The lot.. Then asked if we could talk..

We talked..she told me that she was sorry for what she had done... And for once I actually believed her.. I told her exactly how I felt once again.. I told her the process would not stop.. I told her that I had dealt with enough of her bs time and time again... That her words meant nothing and only her actions could ever change my mind..

For the first time in 3yrs plus we talked and it didnt end up with me giving in about anything.. I just told her that the process will continue and made sure she understood that there was nothing she could say to change my mind.. Only way I will change my mind if I see actual change in her..

Stay strong. Make sure she understands that your decision to D or R is not based on her words or promises - only proven/observable action by her.

For example, telling you she's NC means nothing. She needs to prove it to you. Any suspicious or even a potential opportunity for contact is grounds to assume the worst.

Why? because she destroyed your trust and it's entirely up to her to rebuild it.