SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

But as social animals, we are who we are.

Absolutely not. We work on our weaknesses and faults, we don't accept them. If you want to give your power away, go ahead. But all therapists work with people on resilience and personal autonomy. A belief in our own worth carries us through any crisis and inherently builds respect for the worth of others.

Again, if you want to define yourself by others, go for it. But expect pain.

Do you understand that this has nothing to do with your value?

I’m going to disagree with you here. Healthy or not, we as human beings define our own value by all sorts of ways that others don’t agree with.

Yes, I understand that we all want external validation, especially from one's spouse.

But recovering from infidelity requires internal work. Unless one has already done that work, it requires finding one's intrinsic strength. It requires learning to value oneself as you are, warts and all. It requires letting go of a lot of one's reliance on external validation.

Part of the BS's work in recovery is to internalize what coco wrote - the value your WS places on you and your relationship has nothing to do with your real value.

*****

Well, I have porn star sex now.... Does it make it all better? Oh f**k no.

Speaking for myself only, I don't want to talk about the feelings behind them. I want(ed) my WS to FIX THEM. To repair the damage done, to heal the wounds she caused.

I'm with WOEz on this. Your W can give you a continuously building orgasm for the rest of your life, while bringing in a top 1% income and allowing you to indulge in any hobby or work you want while you're having sex, and it still wouldn't be enough to fill the hole in you You're expecting your W to fill up that hole, and she can't. You can, if you want to.

It'll make sex better.

******

The BS is told they have a right to D over this, but requesting or asking and even stating it’s a dealbreaker is coercion. Feeling the need for it to R is considered forcing or demanding. It’s really a no win no matter what. It appears it’s only ok to D but not give the reasoning behind it.

I really don't understand this set of beliefs.

The BS gives the WS a choice. No force is involved. If you're honest, you won't have ulterior motives. It's not coercive in itself. (There can be other factors in the mix, but if they're in the mix for the BS, they might be in the mix for the WS, too.)

So what, if the WS feels forced to make a choice? So what, if the WS feels Victimized by having to choose? At least the WS has a choice after the A. The BS had none before the A.

If it's a requirement for R, it needs to be explicit. And if the WS won't do it, the BS needs to end R or change the requirement and let the original one go.

*****

So I wonder how these threads would unfold if we stopped talking about the acts themselves and just focus on working through the deep hurt behind them.

I think they'd be a lot more helpful to more people.

I am not failing to comprehend the issue at hand. I just don’t know what the solution is.

The solution is dead simple. DO NOT MAKE THEM DEMAND IT. That's it. Just do it, enthusiastically and from a loving place or, if you "can't" (but could with the AP) give them a divorce with wildly favorable terms and go find the right person for you. And that's not just sex, it's baking apple pie, hang gliding and/or anything else. That's the "solution" to this problem, is to not put the BS into (yet another) no win situation where they have to ask/cajole/demand/beg/plead/whatever for something you freely gave to the AP.

There was a poster here who some of you may remember, his wife was much like mine, and went full porn star with the AP (and not with him). He tried to live with it and, one of the big hangups for him was that his wife used to give the AP BJ's in the car and she would not do that for him. Well, one day, he snapped, and he demanded a BJ in the car or was going to kick her out of his vehicle and she could find another way home.

Now, I'm not going to defend his actions, they were horrible. What I am going to say, he NEVER should have been in that situation to begin with. He made it known it was something he wanted before the A, she admitted to doing it in the A and then did the old favorite WS thing, "pretend it doesn't exist or isn't bothering him". That is the NOT the way to go about this, NOT AT ALL. And neither, honestly, is having days of conversation about the meaning of a BJ in the car, and the FOO that led you to not do it with the BH, or the psychological analysis of the AP and the A. Just do it. BEFORE they ask for it. And way before they demand it; which can take the form of "suck my d**k or get out of the car" (in the typical male presentation) or a BW crying uncontrollably walking past Zales because you bought the AP something from there that she'd always wanted and never got anything for her. It's the same hurt, the same pain in both cases, and yes, we're all more sympathetic to the crying wife, but honestly, we shouldn't be. That poster was in massive amounts of pain because of what his wife did, instead of crying, he lashed out in pain. But that pain was put there BY HIS WIFE, who, if I remember correctly, many posters defended (and eventually ran the poster off).

So, this ^^^^^ us all in your head. If you feel like you aren't good enough because of what your CW did, that's on you.

The facts support my viewpoint. But it's not about me being "good enough" it's about another man being "better". And he WAS better at seducing my wife and getting lots of sex and kinky sex from her. He just was, there's no way to see it otherwise; he got her to have sex faster, got more sex from her, and got more sexual acts from her than I did. I can feel anyway I want about it (mostly, as stated, "outdone"), but the facts are, he was better at it than I was.

When it's something you sacrificed by not having in the relationship - particularly because you loved and valued your partner - it really really hurts and is extremely hard to reconcile. "I gave it up because I loved and valued you so much"

That's exactly my situation. And yes, it is extremely hard to reconcile. I spent many nights awake thinking about the thing I was giving up, and really questioning, "Can I live without this for the rest of my life" to which, eventually, I came to the answer, "Yes, I can, because she is worth it, and I love her that much". Yeah, the AP got it on the 2nd "date". I gave it up for most of my adult life for her, he gets it 2 weeks in? Yes, it's hard to reconcile; and hard to let go of. And, FTR, yes, I get it now, pretty much anytime I want it. It's still pretty much my favorite sexual act, it's just all f**ked up for me emotionally now because of what I had to do to get it.

I totally get “wanting what the AP got”, especially if it was something you already had always wanted. What I don’t get is thinking it will have a positive impact beyond just the nameless and faceless physical pleasure that you could be getting from one of those sex robots.

It had a positive impact for me. I was not going to continue the marriage without it, so, that's one huge positive impact. I really enjoy it, always have, and that pleasure is worthwhile to me. Let me flip it around, is "not getting it" going to make it better? Because, to me, it sure seems like "getting what you want" even if it's nameless/faceless physical pleasure is a whole heck of a lot better then sitting around wondering if you should call the AP and ask him what is was like to enjoy it with your wife. No, it's not a fix all, I would never claim that, but it's a really good first step to fixing things.

it cannot be recreated in the context of the marriage between the WW and the BH. It's sort of the obverse of what Rideitout describes in his marriage.

Somebody needs to broaden their horizons a bit . I can think of many ways this can be recreated in a marriage. No, not exactly the same, but certainly can be close. And you can always "up the ante" to something more exciting/risky/etc.

I'm with WOEz on this. Your W can give you a continuously building orgasm for the rest of your life, while bringing in a top 1% income and allowing you to indulge in any hobby or work you want while you're having sex, and it still wouldn't be enough to fill the hole in you You're expecting your W to fill up that hole, and she can't. You can, if you want to.

But, and maybe I'm alone on this one, the hole wasn't in ME, it was in our relationship. A hole she blew into it through her actions. I was well aware that I could walk away and have any sexual experience I wanted with anyone I wanted. Or none at all if that's what I wanted. It wasn't something lacking in me, it was something lacking in our relationship, something SHE stole from us and only SHE could put back or fix. I really struggle to come to the conclusion that wanting more sex, different sex, gifts, more time together or whatever else it is that a BS wants after an A indicates they have a "hole" in them. The relationship has a hole in it, that's what needs fixing, not necessarily the BS. I spent plenty of time in therapy post-Dday, and I had a lot of stuff to work through, but the vast majority of it was put there by her, and because of her actions. I wasn't damaged goods, or a sexual deviant, or really, much wrong with me at all before my W's A. I was a pretty typical guy with pretty typical desires who was a bit emotionally distant. Not exactly something that's unheard of, and also not something that I'm sure I'll ever work out in therapy (the emotionally closed off/distant part).

But it's not about me being "good enough" it's about another man being "better". And he WAS better at seducing my wife and getting lots of sex and kinky sex from her. He just was, there's no way to see it otherwise; he got her to have sex faster, got more sex from her, and got more sexual acts from her than I did. I can feel anyway I want about it (mostly, as stated, "outdone"), but the facts are, he was better at it than I was.

I am curious about this perspective, RIO...

So, by your description and speaking comparatively, it would stand to suggest that the OM earned it. He got it, you didn't, due to talent, skill, whatever.

So how do you explain what you now get sexually from your wife?

Is it just essentially the spoils from his conquest? Because that would make me feel like shit.

This is not a loaded question, btw - though I realize it probably comes across that way. I'm genuinely curious about how you've accomplished any reconciliation between what - according to your description - seems to be his accomplishment vs. your subsequent demand.

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 11:10 AM, July 5th (Sunday)]

Do you understand that this has nothing to do with your value?

the WW was willing to give the OM full menu sex to keep her

PA with the OM to continue.

this WW now in recovery is only willing to feed her BH off of

the limited sex menu. her actions say that be happy i stopped

having full menu sex with the OM, and willing to give you

limited sex menu.

In WW mind: yes I know that you are not happy with this but I

know you will not divorce me over this.

The WW actions showed who she valued more sexually.

Her OM.

Realizing your value and worth => healing. It must be done whether you R or D and does not require another living soul. It's personal empowerment, and with it, you will feel safe(r) to risk again in love or remain alone or a little of both. You know you will be fine. You believe in your ability to be happy no matter what, and you feel content with life.

I totally get “wanting what the AP got”, especially if it was something you already had always wanted.

The above => reconciliation. Everyone feels a loss. Every. Single. Person. It doesn't matter what they feel they lost--affirmations, their special, exclusivity, sex, their love story, their special places or memories. And if the relationship is to recover in a healthy, mutually satisfying way, the WS is responsible for healing those losses and hurts in a meaningful way. The WS must care about the injuries that their actions caused and want to heal them for the R to fully recover, if the BS feels it is possible. This is about feeling valued in the relationship you are in.

BS get into trouble when they confuse healing and reconciliation. Those are two different things. If you don't work on healing yourself, no amount of work from the WS will do. The WS can only help to save the R, but they cannot save you. We all heal ourselves.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 12:34 PM, July 5th (Sunday)]

But, and maybe I'm alone on this one, the hole wasn't in ME, it was in our relationship. A hole she blew into it through her actions. ... It wasn't something lacking in me, it was something lacking in our relationship, something SHE stole from us and only SHE could put back or fix.

How sure are you that a hole in the relationship caused your W to cheat? My sense from my own experience is that our relationship was fine. My W was fucked up, and she fucked up. I was collateral damage. I don't know everything about any other BS, but I think a lot of BSes are collateral damage, especially if the A didn't start as an exit A.

IOW, I'd bet the hole was in your W, not in your relationship. I think we all have holes in us from FOO, from love that we wanted but didn't get. The thing is, we can't go back in time and get it when the external validation would have been effective. If you're past the age at which the particular validation comes in naturally, we have to fill in the hole ourselves or leave the hole in place.

When it comes to recovering from infidelity, I think it's way better to figure out how to validate oneself than to continue to live with a hole in one's gut, or wherever it is in one's body.

*****

If pornstar sex is a requirement for R, everything is right about communicating that. My problem is setting a requirement, having the WS say, 'No,' and not either giving up the requirement or the M.

When my W agreed to meet my requirements, I was left with the problem of figuring out if she was doing something because she wanted to or 'had' to. After a couple of years of meeting the requirements, I figured she wanted to do the things I wanted. She also agreed to meet most of the new requests I made. I figure I'm loving, lovable, and capable, so it makes sense that my W would love me. She also knows she can say 'No,' so I figure she says 'Yes' so often because she loves me.

I also know I could be kidding myself ... but I don't think I am, at least not about being loved.

IDK, RIO. I think you feel weak for loving your W. I think you just went after what you wanted, and I applaud that. You place a different value on sex than I do, and I think that's great - life would be too boring if we all wanted the same things.

But I think you're in pain, bro, and I don't like seeing fellow human beings, especially fellow BSes, in pain.

(signed) sisoon, wearing his pollyanna hat, 'cause, you know, I want us all to be happy....

What I do think we ought to be aware of is that ONE PERSON’S opinion does not make or break us or our value to others.

This is exactly what I was getting at. One person's opinion of you, in this case your CP, does not define you. It defines her.

The WW actions showed who she valued more sexually.

Her OM.

I'm not disagreeing with this. I'm saying that says nothing about your worth, sexually or otherwise. You are worthy regardless of what anyone else thinks of you. You deserve to be. Because you deserve to be, you deserve to be loved. Love yourself. Then, it won't matter to you what anyone else thinks.

I'm so glad DF, OIN, and sisoon brought up external validation. That's exactly what this is. People looking outward for others to validate them. That's what got us all he re, isn't? Our CPs craved that external validation because they felt so shitty about themselves. They went to almost any lengths to get that external validation. We say that is one major thing they need to work on if they want to become safe partners. They need to find their intrinsic value.

We BPs need to do that, also. If we understand and embrace our intrinsic value, neither our CPs nor anyone else can hurt us in this way again.

I'm pretty sure I'm not great in the sack. I didn't, and don't, question if my H would've cheated if I were more whatever Icould be, sexually. Him cheating had nothing to do with me. He wasn't looking for sex, much to RIO's shock and amazement, I'm sure. He was looking to fill his emotional needs, needs that no one else can fill no matter what they do. At the end of the day, he's left only with himself and his sense of self-esteem.

I just want to say one thing about external validation...

We are social beings and we need connection. I don’t think it’s healthy to strive for no external validation...it goes against our basic need. The problem comes in when we don’t adequately value ourselves - when we look strictly to other people to give us that. Seeking to overcome that completely is not healthy. What we do need to find is our own internal value and then seek relationships that REFLECT that.

For many of us what the cheating partner reflected to us was our own lack of internal value. Fixing that doesn’t subsequently mean we need no external validation. All of life is a mirror of our own self...and we need that feedback.

We are social beings and we need connection. I don’t think it’s healthy to strive for no external validation

I think this is incorrect. What happens is we strive to be proud of who we are, proud of our work ethic, our values, our kindness. We want to be proud of the way we control our anger but don't let people walk on us. The way we offer to help but also say No when necessary. It's all part of liking ourselves and feeling good in our skin, making choices that feel balanced and respectful in the world we live in. We're not going against what we want and being kind to get outside validation; that never works. We are instead chasing the traits we believe are best because we decided they are right and good and make us feel proud. And lo and behold, others appreciate those good qualities, too. Like the pied piper, people gravitate toward us because we are real and authentic. We're also happy because our choices are coming from our soul and are in keeping with what we really value. The ones who don't like it? They are free to move along. We've already decided who we are.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 5:18 PM, July 5th (Sunday)]

I’m happy if you’ve figured out what works for you, OIN.

However for me I’ve found that the process of figuring out who I am is an ongoing one...and I’m happy with that. One of the traits that I personally value is that of not being a “full cup”...there’s room for me to continually grow. I look to others to reflect back parts of myself that I may not be seeing...or to give me challenges for other ways I may wish to grow. And part of that requires that I also value their opinion or perspective of me. That doesn’t necessarily mean that I change who I am or how I behave as a result. I may find that it’s showing me something I may want to learn...or I may find that it’s causing me to just solidify a value I already have. But I value the outside perspective either way.

Additionally, I like being told I am doing a good job at work. It matters to me when my adult children tell me I have been a good mom. And I also just like being told that something I am wearing looks nice on me. I feel seen, appreciated, and valued by those things. Because of that I also recognize that it’s important that I give those things to others because I know how it feels.

Personally, I often find conversations with people who claim to be so self aware/sufficient as off-putting because they frequently start conversations (opportunities for connection) by telling you that you are wrong.

What Sisoon said. There really isn’t much more to it.

Many people, married or otherwise, have fantasies of wild and crazy erotic sex with a new partner, when a wayward spouse engages with the affair partner, the main thing that they really grant each other is sex with a partner in violation of the marital agreement in a secrecy filled but largely unspoken pact.

Not to be insulting, but it’s really very “junior highish”, The sneaking around, the secrecy, the lack of recognition of the true consequences, and the thought that you’re going to actually do something this terrible and actually evade consequences as well.

When viewed in the light of day, from an adult perspective, from the perspective of a responsible adult, you see the reality of it.

Some years after my wife had her affair, I was engaging in a business transaction, and the woman working with me was being very flirtatious, if not advertising, she was very attractive, but I just ignored the behavior, finished the business, and went back to work. It’s not like I’m some saint, I just happened to be married.

But, during this event, I could see that the ring in my finger didn’t mean anything to this woman, I could see what could happen, what I could do, and the inevitable outcome of that, would almost certainly be a terribly hurt spouse, a family damaged, possibly beyond repair, and the consequences lasting for years, all for some self gratification that would last perhaps no more than 15 minutes.

If I was given a piece of pie, with a scoop of ice cream, and you told me it was going to do the same amount of damage to my family, to me, to my spouse, and destroy my marriage, if I eat it, I don’t think I would eat it, even if I was starving.

The actual sex acts themselves really don’t have much meaning, we try to assign them meaning, we do the same with the AP, but it isn’t really there, the real meaning is in the betrayal itself.

And the betrayal itself, the meaning that lives there, is the fact that you have an adult, who has adult responsibilities, who is dealing with those adult responsibilities like an adolescent in junior high.

At least that’s what I keep telling myself, after all those years of counseling, while like everybody else I still wonder if that’s really the truth.

Many people, married or otherwise, have fantasies of wild and crazy erotic sex with a new partner, when a wayward spouse engages with the affair partner, the main thing that they really grant each other is sex with a partner in violation of the marital agreement in a secrecy filled but largely unspoken pact.

I certainly do or have had those fantasies. And I'm quite sure I'd enjoy having sex with someone new too; that's the promise I made getting married, and that's the thing I promised I wouldn't do, so I won't, but the appeal of it is obvious to me.

Not to be insulting, but it’s really very “junior highish”, The sneaking around, the secrecy, the lack of recognition of the true consequences, and the thought that you’re going to actually do something this terrible and actually evade consequences as well.

Well said, and, of course it is "junior high". However, just like junior high, it seems that some people go into an A with no idea of what "dating in junior high" is really about. Thinking back to that time in my life, I do remember the girls pressing for "do you love me" and thinking at the time, "you're kidding, right". I was looking for sex, as were, well, just about everyone I knew in junior high. It's adolescent behavior, guys say "love" girls act like they believe it and then have sex. At some point, everyone grows up, girls realize that love often has little/nothing to do with a guy's desire to sleep with you, and guys hopefully learn to have sex without directly lying. An affair is just a reversion to that time in life though, or certainly my wife's was. A complete lack of recognition that "guys will lie to get in your pants", something I'm quite sure the knew well in high school, forgotten totally during the A. The thing that really boggles the mind, how on earth can you believe it?! He's going home after you get done blowing him in his car to his wife/kids, you know that right? And if/when this blows up, you know you're going to be booted so fast your head spins, right?

That's the thing that's hard to understand; when your 15, maybe you really don't know about all the lying for sex stuff. When your 40?! Come on. And, if you know, and it's just "small talk" that you and the AP make before/after the thing you both really want (sex), OK, I can see that too. Got to talk about something, right, why not that? But over and over again, we see people who are blindsided by the fact that their AP wasn't in "love" with them, or, in fact, that love had nothing at all to do with an affair. I mean, really? The best analogy I can draw to men is something like "I'm in love with a prostitute that I pay for sex". Well, OK then, and I'm sure there are some successful marriages that start that way, but... Come on, we all know what's most likely going on here, right? She's working him for more money, and he's enjoying the sex so much he's not making rational decisions. Love's got nothing to do with the client/prostitute relationship. And it has nothing to do with a whole lot of affairs. Affairs are usually about sex and words, generally a trade of sex for "whatever I want to hear". Which, if you're happy with the price paid and the result, OK then. But falling to pieces after because "I though he/she loved me" is, well, ridiculous.

If I was given a piece of pie, with a scoop of ice cream, and you told me it was going to do the same amount of damage to my family, to me, to my spouse, and destroy my marriage, if I eat it, I don’t think I would eat it, even if I was starving.

This is a good analogy. That's basically what it is, I made a promise not to eat the pie and I will not, because I promised not to. And the pie, while I'm sure tastes wonderful, is poison to my family and my wife.

I am one of the BWs who was as bothered about the sex aspect as the average BH. RIO, you talk about how the AP had such game. My perspective was that the APs had such youth. Same basic thing in this scenario. I categorically in my 40s was not as attractive as these 20-year-olds and I never will be again. Me in my 20s, sure, I could hold a candle to all of those actual whores. But age is what it is. If he was willing to risk losing me over sex with very young women, well, I have nothing for that. I was pretty well done with any concept of R just for the fact that I knew I would never get past this. I would never again believe that he was attracted to me. Ever. He tried convincing me he was, but I never believed it.

For me, the only way out of this was divorce for various reasons. I did not divorce him purely because he became a drug addict in the pursuit of cheating. I would have wound up divorcing him in any scenario because I would never have gotten past this.

It isn't that I'm overly vain or not aware that I'm a decent looking woman in her 40s. It isn't that I define myself by how this man viewed me (however that really was, I will never know). It is at it's core that I could not be with him because of whatever the female version of emasculation is. I could not be fully okay with me as long as I was with him. My post-XWH life is a happy one. I accept myself and am okay with who I am. I don't define myself by what others think of me. I don't know how to stay married and not be somewhat concerned about what your spouse thinks of you, so I totally get where you still question her motivations years later. I am sorry that you deal with this. It's a completely understandable insecurity. It makes all the sense in the world to me.

RIO, you talk about how the AP had such game. My perspective was that the APs had such youth. Same basic thing in this scenario. I categorically in my 40s was not as attractive as these 20-year-olds and I never will be again. Me in my 20s, sure,

I completely agree, and understand exactly where you're coming from. And that's a big part of the problem, I know I cannot compete. Not, as in your situation, because of age, but in my situation because I'll never be able to "kick game" like the AP did. He had a trump card that I can never match; he could say/promise anything, he knew he would never be called on to deliver. Just like your situation, at one time, sure, I could have kept up with him, but not at the time of the affair. It's impossible to compete with "say anything" game when you're married to someone, it'll quickly lose is impact once they realize you're full of s**t. For an A though, it's perfect, about the time the AP catches on (in my particular OM's case) you just move on to the next one. It's a great strategy for short term "relationships", an impossible strategy for long term. Exactly like "youth", you're husband's AP would get old eventually; her youth will wear out, just like my particular OM's "game" will eventually wear out. Probably is, in both cases, you simply cannot compete with them (the AP) at least not in your existing relationship. I'm sure you could find someone right now your youth would work on just fine, just like I could find someone my game would work on fine, but, that's not my wife or your husband.

BTW, just for the record. His games wasn't "great". It was decent (I got the pleasure of reading all the messages, so I feel I can make a pretty good assessment). And, in your case, I suspect these women, their "youth" wasn't all that wonderful, particularly if they are prostitutes, which is a job that seems to age people quickly. It's just that I know I can't compete not because my "game" sucks, it doesn't; in fact, I think it was better than his when I was actively out looking for partners. No, it's because, much like you, I just can't "use it" on my W, just like you can't use your youth on him.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 9:28 AM, July 6th (Monday)]

BTW, just for the record. His games wasn't "great". It was decent (I got the pleasure of reading all the messages, so I feel I can make a pretty good assessment). And, in your case, I suspect these women, their "youth" wasn't all that wonderful, particularly if they are prostitutes, which is a job that seems to age people quickly. It's just that I know I can't compete not because my "game" sucks, it doesn't; in fact, I think it was better than his when I was actively out looking for partners. No, it's because, much like you, I just can't "use it" on my W, just like you can't use your youth on him.

Yep, I think it's safe to say that we'd both outperform the APs in both our scenarios. Your game was better, my youth and sexual openness didn't require payment and was genuinely given. None of this is about thinking any AP is better than any of us. It's not an insecurity about ourselves as people. I feel like when people express this kind of concern, it's a relationship insecurity and it's a real thing. It's a dealbreaker for some, a challenge to work through for others. But it's real and I don't think it's about sexism most of the time. A sexist person can experience this and express it with sexism, but at it's core it isn't about that. It isn't about what's owed or not owed. It isn't about whether or not you know that you're okay as you are or accepting yourself. If you choose to be married, how your spouse sees you absolutely will affect your quality of life. It should affect your quality of life. It's all well and good for me as a single woman to not give a damn what any individual thinks of me, but marriage is supposed to be a different kind of relationship from any other. That is meant to be with your life partner. That person's opinion and feelings matter greatly. How that person feels about you matters. How you feel about them matters. To say that you shouldn't let that affect you is to view marriage in a way that maybe I don't share.

In my humble opinion this has nothing to do with the AP.

Little analogy.

Your child receives a birthday present from you. Your spouse has to tell the child "what do you say" or "go give them a hug and say thank you".

No biggie when they're young and not old enough to get it.

However, let's say the child is now an adult, and the situation arises again, they receive a present from you and they don't utter a word to you.

How pathetic would it be for your spouse to say to your kid (who's now a GROWN ass adult) "what do you say" or "go give them a hug and say thank you".

Better yet...who wants that hug or for them to have to be told to say thank you. I SURE WOULDN'T!!

It's the same damn thing here.

Your spouse wouldn't do a certain sexual act(s) with you but were willing to do it with their AP.

You stay with them and during an intimate moment that act(s) is shut down.

To me I should NEVER have to ask them (or even demand) to do this act.

Your cheating partner has free volition to do whatever they want but by their own actions with their AP they have shown that this act isn't off limits or stepping over one of their boundaries.

Your spouse now chooses not to do this with you. Screw the thought of me having to tell them to do this or even demand it.

Once you know the nature of something you know it's character. So they may have denied you this in the past for whatever reason, but don't come back to me and try and spin this that it's not something you're going to do because we both know it is something you're capable of doing you're just saying "not with me....your SPOUSE".

Does cheating spouse have a right to do this?

Sure they do.

However the ball would be back in my court, and I can't speak for anybody but myself, but this is a DEAL BREAKER and there is no way in hell I'd spend another minute with my wife.

Nor would I beat myself up that her not doing this with me makes me a lesser or weaker man than her AP.

Fuck that bullshit!!

Everyone has their definition of what reconciliation would be and doing something with your POS AP and not with me isn't R and I wouldn't even have to ask you to do this (or remind you that you did it with your AP but not with me).

Not even going there.

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out and good luck in your life without me.

Trying to debate her to do this act or beg her to do this is what would make me a weak ass man.

I have free volition as well and it's one thing for me to attempt R with a lying cheating spouse but to throw this into the equation as well???

Not just no.....but HELL NO!!!!

To me I should NEVER have to ask them (or even demand) to do this act.

You shouldn't. And to me, that's the value of these threads, so that foggy WS's can see this and think, "huh, probably should get off my ass and do whatever I did for the AP for my BS". Not so they can get 100's of good "psychobabble" about foo, and force, and rapey/sex crazied BS's. No, the message here is that this is unacceptable to many, and if R is your goal, don't try to explain it away or make it "acceptable" with words. Just f-ing do it. Before you BS is put in the situation of "do it or get out" and before you break what left of them having them life a life without it. Just do it. Or, if it's really that odious with your BS but was fine with your AP, well.. What does that tell you? Just move on and let your BS find someone who wants to give their all to him/her.

Trying to turn this into a "BS acceptance" issue makes about as much sense as us trying to get a BS to "accept" that their spouse is cheating on them and encouraging them to learn to live with it. Yes, some people do that, I'm well aware, but is that the right way to deal with an A? For some people, I suppose it is, but for most? If it was, I think we'd give very different advice here, if "live with it" or "pretend it didn't happen" were the "right" answers in general, well, we all need to be fired, because we're giving poor advice here. And that's how I feel about some of the advice around this issue, sure, you can babble on endlessly about the million reasons you find yourself in this situation to your BS, I sincerely doubt it's going to help much/at all. This is NOT an issue in the BS for them to "fix in themselves", IMHO, it's somewhat insulting to even suggest that it is.

Listen, I am not saying that a ww is in any way excused for the cheating. I am not saying it is right that a ww would do with an AP things they wouldn't with their spouse. None of that is fair or right. But a woman, cheater or not, is under no obligation to do sexual stuff that she doesn't want to. Ever. For any reason.

May I just point out that the FOO crap that you seem to dismiss so readily may actually play quite a bit into why a w turns into a ww in the first place. It is just different for women - it just IS. And I am in NO WAY saying that cheating is a healthy mechanism by any means, but if a ww is say... a child sexual abuse survivor or a survivor of rape or emotional abuse, then you damn well better believe that her having entirely inappropriate sexual boundaries traces directly back to that FOO stuff. And that is a ww's responsibility to figure out.

Rio, man I try to see your pov. I really do. But you pop into these threads and immediately start talking about how you are entitled to whatever sex you want, when you want, how you want... I for one find it extremely off-putting. I find it very difficult to empathize or to see whatever point you are actually trying to make because the way you present it is generally pretty damn offensive to me as a woman. So just playing devil's advocate here, but let's say a BW had a fantasy about pegging; is a wh now obligated to bend over and take it whether they like it or not? My guess is that answer would be no.

I get that you are very hurt by your ww's treatment of you (rightfully so) and have all the compassion for you about that. But your posts about all this (to me) just radiate contempt for her, and have for goin on two years now. IMHO, it doesn't seem particularly healthy for either of you to have 'pornstar' sex if she is only doing it to keep you happy and not because she truly wants to.

Signed, a 'rapey/sex crazied BS'