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But a woman, cheater or not, is under no obligation to do sexual stuff that she doesn't want to. Ever. For any reason.

Neither is a man. Agreed, completely.

So just playing devil's advocate here, but let's say a BW had a fantasy about pegging; is a wh now obligated to bend over and take it whether they like it or not? My guess is that answer would be no.

I'll answer for myself here. If I had an A, and my wife had expressed that fantasy to me before, and I denied it to her, then did it with the AP.. Absolutely, I'd ask her to do it in fact, demand it, because it's obvious I stole this experience from her and was happily willing to do it with my AP.

What if I didn't do it with the AP but it was still something my wife had expressed interest in and I'd denied her? I'd do it, for sure. Maybe I'd really like it, some people do, maybe I wouldn't and it would just be one more sexual thing that's "for her, not really for me" (oral sex, for example). But denying her a sexual experience that she wants that's anywhere in the realm of "normal" would be really hard for me to do after an A. And A is a level 9 "kink scale" activity, you're f**king another person behind your partners back. It's seriously outside the lines, stuff like partner swapping/threesomes/anal/pegging/facials, whatever, it's much more in the lines of things that society accepts that two people do together. Yes, I'm aware of "hotwifing" and that particular kink, but compared to BJs and anal sex, it's far, far less common/normal an activity. But, that's what I did (unknowingly), I participated for a few months in a "hotwife" arrangement, without, I might add, the ability to decide for myself if I'd like to participate in it or not.

Now, of course, I always have a right to say no. And "obligation" to try to fulfill my wife's sexual fantasy, affair or not, does not mean that I HAVE TO do anything. It's like of like the obligation to go to work in the morning, yes, it's part of the deal, I work, you pay, but I'm free to call it off at any time. What I'm not free to do though is stop going to work and then getting pissed off when they stop paying me.

May I just point out that the FOO crap that you seem to dismiss so readily may actually play quite a bit into why a w turns into a ww in the first place. It is just different for women - it just IS.

I get myself in all kinds of trouble when I make generalizations like this, but, I agree with you, it is different for men and women. And sex is very different for both too, I agree with that completely. My wife didn't have any of those FOO issues you mentioned, she had more "standard FOO" (Dad didn't pay enough attention to her, pushed too hard, etc). I also am lucky enough to have no really awful FOO issues, just somewhat distant parents. My problem with FOO isn't that it doesn't exist, it does, my problem is that people use it to excuse all manner of bulls**t. Guess what? We all have FOO. Yes, I do think that some people have it worse than others (in fact, I know they do), but no, I don't think it's a huge contributor in many affairs, it's just selfish, immature behavior. No need to explain it any deeper than that.

particularly healthy for either of you to have 'pornstar' sex if she is only doing it to keep you happy and not because she truly wants to.

I have no idea how to tell one from the other. It's not contempt your seeing in my posts, I love my wife; she royally f**ked me up in this particular area though, and I don't know how to "undo" it. How can I possibly tell if she "truly wants to"? She fooled me before the A, fooled the AP (didn't want to have sex with him, just wanted him to pay attention to me, pretty typical), and maybe fools me now. She certainly indicates she wants sex, but.. She did the same with the AP. Indicates she likes various kink now, but.. Did the same with the AP. The lack of honesty and authenticity both before and perhaps after the A is stunning. I simply have no idea anymore, so, I just take it as it's offered and enjoy it. Trying to figure out her true motivations/desires is just not something I'll ever be able to discern truth from lies.

the WW was willing to give the OM full menu sex to keep her PA with the OM to continue.

Following this theory, if a WW has provided full menu with the AP to keep her AP and affair, wouldn't she also provide full menu to the husband to keep her husband and marriage? I'm not seeing the difference.

wouldn't she also provide full menu to the husband to keep her husband and marriage? I'm not seeing the difference.

Oh, I’m sure a lot of women do.

I think many if not most women do a post-A valuation. To keep “X,” I’ll have to give “Y.”

But I think that’s a lot of marriages, and a lot of people’s lives, in general. Life is transactional. It’s not just after affairs.

Always wondered what the (CIS) female equivalent to "emasculated" is... I don't think there is one. Food for thought.

Getting the SI community to deliver the ultimatum to WW's via SOP isn't any different than the BH delivering that ultimatum himself. The sex acts would still be "transactional". The WW would simply be doing what she needed to do to keep the marriage, and again... there would be no method of gauging authenticity because the WW has been coached. So, instead of just the one guy we have here who has gotten himself into that situation, we'd have hundreds. Hundreds of BH's who don't know if their wife is enjoying sex with them, or is just putting on an act to keep her home deal going. It's just basic logic.

If it's about turning a bunch of WW's into Betty Blow Up Dolls than why not say so? But if it's about the true reconciliation of broken relationships, or the emotional recovery of a betrayed husband, than there's no quick fix. The solutions are restoring honesty and authenticity, emotional and sexual intimacy, and defining one's own value (or masculinity), and engaging with positive self-talk as Sissoon reminds us. People who are looking for an intimate, meaningful primary relationship shouldn't be misled into settling for one that's emotionally vacant and "transactional".

Getting the SI community to deliver the ultimatum to WW's via SOP isn't any different than the BH delivering that ultimatum himself.

It's quite different. If my wife, after the affair, went in search of this knowledge and brought it to our relationship, I'd say it's very different than delivering an ultimatum. Look at those who have "banner" WS's, those who read here a lot, post a lot, and really work the recovery vs those who have to drag their WS's into SI/MC/IC/etc. No, it's not perfect, there is NO perfect after an A. But, "baby, I know I hurt you with my affair and I wanted you to have this" (and this could be a diamond, could be a weekend away, could be the kinkiest sex you can imagine, whatever) is very different than the BS demanding/begging/whatever for "this". Perfect, no. Better, yes.

Hundreds of BH's who don't know if their wife is enjoying sex with them, or is just putting on an act to keep her home deal going. It's just basic logic.

I think we're already there. It's one of the most fundamental questions I see on here often, "does she really want it with me as much as she did the AP". But one of the big reasons, at least I thought that personally is because of this issue, she was a porn star with the AP and not with me. I really don't think delivering this message crisply to WS is going to change that. Is a full confession any less impactful if the WS spent the time to read how to write it and then put the effort to make a complete recounting of the A? IMHO, if at all less impactful, it's very close. Is a full confession less impactful if not given until "You're gonna write down what you did or your out of this house". Yes, it is, IMHO. While I agree with what you're saying, there are levels to it, and the difference between a confession given under duress and one given because "it's the right thing to do" aren't, at least to me, the same.

If it's about turning a bunch of WW's into Betty Blow Up Dolls than why not say so?

Is the goal of a post-nup to turn WH's into shackled down workhorses? Or is it to protect the BS and help them heal? IMHO, this is similar, it's not to turn the WS into a blowup doll, it's to arm them with the knowledge of how important this is and, if they want to help "fix it" this is often a very, very important step. The "goal" of recovery isn't to punish the other person, it's to help them find a path that's most likely to lead to their desired outcome. If R is the desired outcome and your a WW, IMHO, this is a big step. I just cannot imagine R proceeding in most situations with this hanging over the relationship, much like I cannot imagine R proceeding well if the WS continues to sleep with the AP. Yes, some people make it work, but, IMHO, we'd be remiss if we advised WS's "sleeping with other people is fine, your H just needs to accept it, get more IC, etc" because, most people aren't going to want or tolerate that kind of relationship. The same is true here, I can't tell you that this will work, but I feel pretty confident in saying that "yes for the AP, no for you" is unlikely to work, whatever the reason (outside of rape/force, of course).

We are social beings and we need connection. I don’t think it’s healthy to strive for no external validation...it goes against our basic need.

Oh, the generalizations. This, simply, is not true for everyone. There are people who choose to completely extricate themselves from society and any interaction with other people. Maybe most people are social beings. Some are not. Some people tolerate society. Even if we need society and socializing, we don't need external validation. That is not a basic need. As babies, we know we are worthy. It's only through neglect and abuse that we learn that we have to earn love and approval.

I prefer solitude. I can handle only maybe a couple of hours a week of socialization. The last time I went to a social coffee thing with some other women (only 3 other people), it took me 3 days to recover. I am not exaggerating. I was physically exhausted for 3 days. I don't feel the need to fit in. I don't feel the need for others to like me. I don't expect my kids to tell me I'm awesome. I didn't give birth to and love them so they could validate me.

It is absolutely healthy to strive for not needing external validation. That does not mean that one doesn't appreciate a compliment. It means one doesn't need a compliment in order to do their best, or the right thing, or feel good about herself. Do you see the difference? Those are 2 separate things.

I could go on and on.

I think the thing that riles me about these discussions is the idea that anyone is obligated to do anything for anyone else. To me, that's wayward thinking. That was my H's thinking. He's the cheater. He thought he had to do everything I wanted. He couldn't say, "No."

He also thought he needed external validation. The two went hand-in-hand for him. He built up resentments toward me because I didn't appreciate him enough according to his standards. He felt unworthy, like a failure, because he wasn't getting the response from me that he expected and wanted. His self worth was completely wrapped up in what others thought of him, or what he thought others thought of him, that external validation. That led him to cheat.

So, yeah, obligation and external validation are big no-nos for me. Ask for anything you want. Just understand that no one is under any obligation to give it to you. If they don't honor your request, that is not a reflection on you as a person. Their response is solely about them.

It's quite different. If my wife, after the affair, went in search of this knowledge and brought it to our relationship, I'd say it's very different than delivering an ultimatum.

The only thing different would be that you'd be oblivious to the manipulation. So, is that your answer to solving the issue of sexual authenticity... that the WW should just make sure that the transactional nature of the reconciliation NOT be discernible by the BH??

Women who like butt sex and blow jobs engage in butt sex and blow jobs. Not just with their AP, but with their mate and in their previous relationships. Sexually, people like what they like, and they'll act on that from the moment they discover it. If that's not the case, logic dictates that they're making some kind of accommodation.

The only thing different would be that you'd be oblivious to the manipulation. So, is that your answer to solving the issue of sexual authenticity... that the WW should just make sure that the transactional nature of the reconciliation NOT be discernible by the BH??

You're right. This is what makes R such a hard thing. It isn't just about sex. You want the person to become the kind of person who wants to make you as happy as they wanted to make the AP (or themselves). They aren't that person, though. Especially early on. What they do is either:

1. Nothing and continue making their BS miserable or wind up divorced.

2. Do what the BS demands/requests to avoid divorce.

3. Read online or books or ask people what they should do to avoid divorce and do those things.

4. Suddenly are overcome with empathy and love and genuine remorse and do everything they can to help their spouse heal from what they did to them.

1 and 4 are not manipulation. 1 is common, 4 pretty much never happens right at the start. 2 and 3 are common as heck, but are manipulative and self-serving. So whether it's blowjobs or timelines or changing jobs or moving or going no contact with the AP or giving up social media, NONE of it is genuine right after DDay. If the WS was the kind of person who would genuinely mean these things, they are not the kind of person who would have cheated on you.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 5:32 PM, July 6th (Monday)]

So whether it's blowjobs or timelines or changing jobs or moving or going no contact with the AP or giving up social media, NONE of it is genuine right after DDay. If the WS was the kind of person who would genuinely mean these things, they are not the kind of person who would have cheated on you.

Exactly. And if you have to make a choice between blowjobs and "do nothing", well, I know what my choice would be. And I suspect I'm not alone in this.

We deal so much with the perfect that we neglect to discuss the "normal WS" or what most of us are dealing with. Of course, it would have been fantastic is my wife just "got it" and worked to fix things, wrote a timeline, healed the sexual gulf between what I got and the AP got, went NC, and a ton of other things. What's more realistic? Putting your foot down, saying these things are needed to continue to relationship and seeing what they do.

Some of these aren't obvious. I doubt many/any WS's know about "timelines" or "NC" or SI, or a lot of the other things we want them to do, they have to be told (some, very "good" WS's probably find it on their own, but, let's just be realistic here, most have to be told). But they sure as hell know about BJ's, gifts, quality time, and the ways in which their BS likes to recieve love. In fact, some of them, like my W, were in the A putting on a "clinic" on how to deliver that specific form of love language. It's not at all a stretch to imagine that they bring that into the marriage, in fact, it's pretty blindingly obvious. I know my wife like diamonds, if I gave a bunch to the AP, I really don't need anyone to tell me that I should probably give some, in fact, more and better diamonds to my W. Honestly, it kind of feels a bit silly to even have that discussion, OF COURSE I should get them and give them to her. And spend more time talking about my emotions with her, and lots of other things I'm sure she'd like to help her heal from my hypothetical A. Is that really not obvious to WS's coming out of an A, or do they really not know their BS's well enough to have an idea of "this is what he/she would like"?!

So whether it's blowjobs or timelines or changing jobs or moving or going no contact with the AP or giving up social media, NONE of it is genuine right after DDay. If the WS was the kind of person who would genuinely mean these things, they are not the kind of person who would have cheated on you.

I agree with your overall premise, but not that specific sexual acts should be included in it. Sex is just too intimate. And good sex, when it's organic, is a manifestation of that intimacy. It's a measurement of how the relationship is working, a reflection of how well R is progressing. It is in no way the same as a WS proving that they've ended their cheating behavior. But, when it's authentic, it can be a measure of their honesty. Once you've made demands and ultimatums on specific acts, it can't be any of those things. It's ticking a box in order to keep the marriage afloat, and if it isn't... there's no way to be assured of that.

Sex is just too intimate. And good sex, when it's organic, is a manifestation of that intimacy. It's a measurement of how the relationship is working, a reflection of how well R is progressing.

How does that reflect when looking at A sex? Basically, is it a "manifestation of that intimacy" in an A or something else?

I understand your position, and I see that it has a reasonable basis, but I can't accept it for myself personally. Sex is basically the one thing (outside of having an A, obviously) that needed to change post-Dday for me. Sure, I could have made it about something else, but it would have been lying to her and to myself. I knew what I wanted, and I communicated it to her in the best way that I could. I was as authentic as I could be, perhaps to my own detriment, but anything else, honestly, would have been a lie.

Always wondered what the (CIS) female equivalent to "emasculated" is... I don't think there is one. Food for thought.

Kind of a word guy over here, so I'll explore this a bit and throw a wrench in this otherwise fascinating discussion.

Believe it or not, if you look at the etymology, the closest literal female equivalent to 'emasculate' would probably be something like 'spay'. Whoa! Hard to imagine the BWs around here casually referring to their WH's as having done that to them.

However, again looking at the etymology and particularly the original Latin prefix, it's interesting to note that 'effeminate' is also strikingly similar in structure (but with the opposite gender) but doesn't have a verb function. And, interestingly, it's really a word to describe a man with certain qualities. Both 'emasculate' (the verb) and 'effeminate' (the adjective), though linguistically nearly identical (but polar opposite) in structure, have to do with men becoming un-masculine one way or another. Neither are useful in describing women.

But that's just me talking. I don't have anyone at Roget's backing me up on that.

I did a little digging and found that this question has been tackled in popular culture and some literature over the years. The book The Real Facts Of Life: Feminism And The Politics Of Sexuality C1850-1940 by Margaret Jackson notes that once upon a time Dr. Mary Stopes (a solid feminist, sex writer, and all-around superwoman) coined the term 'defeminate' as an equivalent to 'emasculate'. William Safire, in his little exercise on this subject, apparently concluded that this was the best alternative.

Well, it's not in my dictionary, so that's a no-go for me.

However, my dictionary (an Oxford) *and* the Google dictionary do have 'defeminize' as an entry.

Definition: "deprive of feminine characteristics."

So, if you ask me at least, that's the winner. Defeminize.

Thanks, that was fun.

[This message edited by Okokok at 7:15 PM, July 6th (Monday)]

Well, then, here's the problem with saying you have been emasculated. It's based on a societal definition of what it is to be masculine. That definition changes based on culture. It's not real. Not all men are born masculine. Not all women are born feminine. Those are human constructs. And, if we're seeing anything today, it's that these narrow definitions of gender roles are inaccurate.

if you have to make a choice between blowjobs and "do nothing", well, I know what my choice would be

I know what my choice would be, nothing. I don't care what I may have done, sexually, with another person. I will not allow myself to be coerced into to doing it again with anyone. I have been forced and coerced into performing sexual acts. That would not be ok with me under any circumstances.

I'm not a CW, though.

Honestly, I don't really understand why anyone would want the exact same sex their partner had with the OP. The idea of that disgusts me. Just last week, we were having sex and I started to wonder if my H had touched the MOW the way he was touching me. I almost cried. I had to intentionally refocus my brain and pretend he was someone else.

RIO, wouldn’t your “more and better diamonds” example also reek of insincerity and being a “guilt gift”? I’m sure most women would appreciate the diamonds but are also intelligent enough to realize that if hypothetical “he” never bothered to get her diamonds before, but mysteriously is now showering her with them, they would obviously be to get him out of the proverbial doghouse?

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 8:07 PM, July 6th (Monday)]

RIO, wouldn’t your “more and better diamonds” example also reek of insincerity and being a “guilt gift”? I’m sure most women would appreciate the diamonds but are also intelligent enough to realize that if hypothetical “he” never bothered to get her diamonds before, but mysteriously is now showering her with them, they would obviously be to get him out of the proverbial doghouse?

Of course. As would, if I were a WS, reading SI. Or writing a timeline. Or a million other things, all done out of "guilt" or put another way, trying to repair the damage done.

Listen, I never claimed and don't think that diamonds, blow jobs, timelines, SI, or a million other actions are the "cure" for an A. They all help, some more than others for different BS's. What I do hear in spades though this is a "no go" for a lot of BS's, without this, it's simply not going forward (R).

The problem with an A is a f**ks up the dynamic of a marriage and sucks the authenticity out of everything. This is just one more casualty (and the most painful for me personally).

This particular conversation reminds me of the whole Incel movement. When I listen to their anger, entitlement, frustration, bitterness--almost universally pertaining to satisfaction with the opposite sex--I can't help but think, "These poor guys. I wish they would realize that they need to work on changing themselves to stand the best chance of achieving their sexual and relationship goals, not the women they are targeting."

Same thoughts here.

Exactly the same.

I agree with your overall premise, but not that specific sexual acts should be included in it. Sex is just too intimate.

This is an attempt of sematic manipulation. Logically if the issue is a particular sex act then is it by DEFINITION impossible to separate. Intimate of course, thus the WW was arguably more intimate with the AP by your logic.

And good sex, when it's organic, is a manifestation of that intimacy.

Thus if the WW has undertaken various acts with the AP and not the BH is may reasonably be concluded that the WW was more intimate with the AP.

Cancer is organic as well, as is anything with carbon its application is almost as unavailing as the word proactive that is commonly bantered about in many discussions.

It's a measurement of how the relationship is working, a reflection of how well R is progressing.

Ahh, just like her withholding the acts was a sign of her virtues or lack of comfort with the acts in question? Thus by your logic, it is reasonable to conclude the AP relationship is/was working at a level above that of the WW/BS during any part of their relationship history...wow.

It is in no way the same as a WS proving that they've ended their cheating behavior. But, when it's authentic, it can be a measure of their honesty.

I doubt any particular sex act would "prove" an end to cheating or a particular character issue, however it is a reasonable metric of effort to restore the mythical intimacy you reference.

Once you've made demands and ultimatums on specific acts, it can't be any of those things. It's ticking a box in order to keep the marriage afloat, and if it isn't... there's no way to be assured of that.

The checking off boxes in order to repair a marriage seems reasonable (example stop lying, check, stop copulating with other people check)

The logic in your postings is significantly flawed thus it must be concluded they are AGENDA driven. Which seems to be supported by your statements about turning WW's into "Betty blow up dolls".

Everybody. I'm sorry for starting this thread. I was trying to get at a much narrower and more specific idea.

BFTG, I think, in the situation to which you referred, the BP would just have to accept that he will not get what he wants. Can he live with that? It's ok if he can't regardless of the reason why he won't get it. He needs to get completely honest with himself.

Blahblah, I don't think anyone is arguing with your conclusions about the CW being more adventurous, more Intimate, more accommodating, or more whatever with the OM in these cases. All anyone is arguing against is the idea that demanding, coercing, or manipulating your CW into being the same way with you after is most likely not going to result in the healing that you need.

If you can't accept that your CW will not willingly and with enthusiasm give to you what she gave to the OM, the only healthy recourse us to D. It sucks. I don't think any of us BPs want that. We are forced into because of the actions of our CPs. It's not fair, but it is what it is.