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I'll say something else: I don't comment on BW's threads in JFO very often.

For one thing, I feel like I'm treading into a space that is best reserved for other women. It feels invasive for me to jump in. It almost feels - if I can use the right word picture - like being at a wake, and there's a roomful of women grieving, and then a man charges in and starts weeping with them. It feels off and jarring.

If I do comment, its usually of the "he's a real SOB and you deserve better" variety because I can read the pain in every line and I see BW's trying to scramble their already scrambled brains around the same phenomenon we see with many BH's. They are trying to make themselves believe in a kind of noble lie: that their husbands are the person they thought rather than the person who is standing right in front of them who betrayed them.

I don't feel I know what to say other than "he's a bastard. you're better off without him."

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:28 PM, August 8th (Saturday)]

I was profoundly bothered by the sex acts that my XWH did when cheating. I didn't ask how he felt about the women. I use the word "c***" regularly. I really like using my chainsaw and am way into classic cars. I work hard to provide for my family and take pride in that. I don't watch chick flicks. I read mostly sci-fi. I have a high IQ and score highly on rational thinking in personality tests.

Go ahead, gender my pink shirt wearing ass. I am beyond sick of these threads about how women are so different from men that we just cannot understand them.

Sisoon scores higher on empathy than I do, and he is without doubt a stellar man.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 1:33 PM, August 8th (Saturday)]

Maybe, just maybe, if we treat one another as the human beings we all are, we'd do a better job at this here.

Another reminder everyone. Do not refer and bring quotes from another thread for discussion here.

I am beyond sick of these threads about how women are so different from men that we just cannot understand them.

Hmm, that seems a bit like a straw man. Did anyone say that?

I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time. I don't disagree with what you're saying. I acknowledge several things all at once as a gestalt picture:

1. We're each unique individuals regardless of our gender, meaning that members of each gender may exhibit characteristics more typically found in the other gender. In fact we know this is true.

2. We're of the same species, meaning we probably have as much in common as we have differences.

3. We do have profound differences that happen to line up very nicely as complimentary of each other. This should be celebrated, rather than denied. We think differently, use our brains differently, have different visual abilities, perceive the world differently, move through three dimensional space differently and so on.

5. Just because science has demonstrated that genders have differences that go beyond merely cosmetic (such as surface differences like breasts, body hair, facial structure etc) does not make one gender better than the other. Far from it. Just because, for example, there is a growing body of evidence that men and women's brains are wired differently does not mean one is superior to the other. How they work isn't the same as how well they work.

I for one find it all pretty fascinating. It doesn't make me angry or defensive that I more than likely cannot use both of my hemispheres in my brain at the same time like a woman can. It doesn't make feel "lesser than" that even though my verbal acuity is pretty high for a man, I find in my own experience it just can't stand up to the verbal acrobatics of most women.

It just makes me interested.

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:47 PM, August 8th (Saturday)]

Some people see studies and accept them.

When it comes to intellectual and emotional differences between men and women, I believe we don't know and can't yet distinguish - if we ever will be able to distinguish - between nurture and nature.

Lets say that there is a wise person CT for instance whose thoughts can help people and she posts to both men and women despite not being a man .

And another wise person Thumos only feels his words can help another man because his own lived in experience is masculine

Does this make masculinity seem like a strength or a weakness for people who want to see a better world ? If its not a strength why over value it as an experience and why try so hard to see everything through that lens .

Orwell is great on linguistics so is Chomsky im a fan of both .

That being said our language is inherited from centuries of acceptance of terrible things ; misogyny homophobia and cultural supremism etc and we would be wise to recognize that re wording is often a sign of much needed value evolution not just a needless lack of precision

"When it comes to intellectual and emotional differences between men and women, I believe we don't know and can't yet distinguish - if we ever will be able to distinguish - between nurture and nature."

DING! DING! DING!

There are too many confounding variables to independently, and adequately, verify a particular theory in this realm, with any statistical significance. You can't remove a whole slew of differences (e.g., genetics, gestational, birth complications, food intake, food type, home life, school life, etc.) between test-subjects without controlling the test-subjects' lives from conception through the end of the study. In my mind, a good starting point for an end of study would be 21 years of age. That, for good reason, just ain't ethical. So, we're left with generalizations that may, or may not, apply to wide swaths of the populace, and more particularly to individual subjects.

we would be wise to recognize that re wording is often a sign of much needed value evolution not just a needless lack of precision

Wow! I just love this! It is very true.

DDee

Like you Im so glad we live in modern times where women can have “masculine “ personality traits . I hope one day society will allow men to feel as comfortable embracing their feminine sides too . Being trapped into a stereotype doesnt seem fair to anyone .

Let me know when we get the group discount :)

we would be wise to recognize that re wording is often a sign of much needed value evolution not just a needless lack of precision

Wow! I just love this! It is very true.

Agreed!

The thing is, Thumos, if you approach me with a preconceived idea of who I am or how I think based on my gender, you will likely miss the mark. If I approach a random man here with a preconceived idea of how he thinks or feels based on his gender, I will likely miss the mark as well. The only limitations that my biological sex hands me are cultural and physical. This focus on how a BH feels and thinks vs how a BW feels and thinks is likely why we see BHs treated more harshly. The men here have wept with as much despair as the women have and struggled with the same basic traumas. We all relate to one another very strongly with regard to this trauma. I read what a BH says about the pain and I think "me too, baby. I am so damned sorry you feel this too." I don't think "well, since the infidelity didn't involve the things that should hurt you most as a man, it isn't so bad" or "since you're a man, you can't take this aspect as well as a woman could" or "yeah, this aspect is way worse for you because of man-brain". Those assumptions do not help me understand how this individual person is feeling.

DDee

Like you Im so glad we live in modern times where women can have “masculine “ personality traits . I hope one day society will allow men to feel as comfortable embracing their feminine sides too . Being trapped into a stereotype doesnt seem fair to anyone .

Let me know when we get the group discount :)

Ha ha, I may have been a little triggered in this thread. Yes, it is very freeing to just be who you are without worrying about what you're supposed to like or do based on the remnants of a time when women did not have choices. Men deserve that freedom so much too. Let a dude have feelings and sew if he feels like it, lol. Give him primary custody of kids when he's the stable parent. Let a man teach kindergarten without ridicule. The expectations to always be so strong and tough must be exhausting.

"Another reminder everyone. Do not refer and bring quotes from another thread for discussion here."

Sorry, WOES. My bad. It won't happen again.

We need the “burn the witch” voice here just as much as any other group. It’s good for BSes to hear all opinions and choose what is right for them.

I remember a BTW thread a while back where two of the biggest supporters of the BTW philosophy were BHes who were still with their WWs...Mr. Spock and Stayedforthekids. I finally asked them out of curiosity why they were so pro BTW when they were trying to reconcile, and they both said In hindsight that they wish they hadn’t gone the reconciliation path and had chosen BTW instead. I feel that way too TBH.

The only thing that bothers me about BTW is that a lot of the trolls on here seem to be BTW types doing it to support their agenda.

It’s good for BSes to hear all opinions and choose what is right for them.

This is beyond differing opinions. We're speaking about attacks, really rough 2×4s, and hostile tones. How is that stuff necessary?

I just took one of those bullshit male/female brain tests online and it registered me as male. I have make-up, high heels, all kinds of hair products. I love shoes. I am currently taking a break from mowing grass, and I'm watching my painted nails type this post.

This "we're so different" is cultural bullshit.

And, btw, my best girlfriend and I regularly greeted one another all of our lives with "Hey bitch!" and "What's up, whore?".

Dee You and me could be buddies Just got done mowing the lawn after watching The Sound of Music. Have to install some shelf brackets, then gonna grill a steak and have a cosmo and paint my nails. I also greet my friends with "s'up c*** face?"

The point I was trying to get at was better stated by others, but basically that I personally place NO difference in BH posts vs BW posts. In every JFO, every BS posts here because they are in huge amounts of pain and trauma and confusion. I don't have to possess specific genetalia to understand that pain and hurt for them. All I need to do is remember my ddays. I will offer my words and my experience always and hope that, if nothing else, it helps a poster feel less alone. Also fwiw, early on when men would respond to my posts about what a dickhead my ex was, I found it very supportive and it gave me hope that not all males were bastards, as well as affirming for me that 'nope another guy thinks this is horseshit too, so it's not just me being an overemotional woman'. I hope that as a woman when I comment on a BH's post, it can add some of the clarity that I got and let them no that 'no you're not just being a caveman, what your ww is doing is REALLY shitty.'

As for cheaters, if they are on SI legitimately trying to get help for themselves and to fix things then good for them and I wish sincerely that they find support here for themselves. It was really hard coming here as a BW, I imagine it must be very difficult indeed to come here as the cheater and admit to yourself and others what you did. For WS SIers, I don't think attacks are in any way constructive or helpful.

As for R vs D... Welp I tried R and it sucked ass. I am much happier D. Most newbies aren't ready to think about D when they first get here (I know I wasn't!) so I generally don't advocate one way or the other unless imho their WS is totally a lost cause (remorseless, blaming, abusive etc). And honestly after 2 years here, those super shitty WS's are pretty evenly split between men and women I think. Cheaters and the pain they cause suck, no matter whether they are the man or woman.

Not everyone drinks the koolaid. Just because someone disagree with you does not mean they are not hearing what you say.

As for R vs D... Welp I tried R and it sucked ass.

Ellie .... 🤣🤣😆😂😆🤣 that one liner is perfect for me right now. Exactly how I feel and why I came to the conclusion I did this week.

Thanks!

preconceived idea of who I am or how I think based on my gender, you will likely miss the mark

But you always know if your child is actually yours or not. No matter what.

Does nobody get that this core primal idea percolates upwards into all our higher-order behaviors?

[This message edited by Sunspot at 7:45 PM, August 8th (Saturday)]