SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I am still a new member here, so I want to stay in my lane, but so many times I see a new BS in JFO attacked for how they are feeling at the moment. I felt the same way on Dday, shock, shame, let’s fix this and get it behind us. They don’t know which way to turn. They get some venomous reply “your WS is an asshole”. They run away without spending the time here it takes to make rational decisions. As angry as I am at my WW I don’t want her personally attacked here, call her a cheater, lier, a wayward, don’t call her a whore. Don’t describe to me how AP put his d in her p. The BS knows these things already. What they don’t know is the patterns the WS follows, they think their story is unique and we’ve never seen this before. They just need a direction to head.

I’m definitely in a different mindset than I was on Dday because I stuck around and started seeing more clearly, I started to see true patterns in the WS that makes things more predictable.

I have received great advice and direction from many BS here, but some of the best clarity and advice has come from a truly valuable member here, she is a fWW. I’m so glad she is here and wasn’t burned at the stake.

** Posting as a member **

I finally asked them out of curiosity why they were so pro BTW when they were trying to reconcile, and they both said In hindsight that they wish they hadn’t gone the reconciliation path and had chosen BTW instead.

That is exactly the problem - illogical, unthinking projection combined with a nasty lack of empathy.

I understand that the Burn The Witch posters want to help new BHes, but that requires learning about the supposed target of help. The BTW BH who made mistakes in recovering from d-day is NOT the new BH. What worked for the BTW BH may NOT be what will work with the new BH.

We see pretty regularly stories of BSes who accept behavior from their WSes that are detrimental to R for months and even years after d-day and who eventually D. Sometimes the D comes long after SIers recommend it.

We also see stories of serial cheaters who redeem themselves and R.

When a BS is still in the throes of d-day thoughts and feelings, we can't tell what will work well for that BS. We can't know what that BS wants. We can't tell what side that BS's WS will be on.

So telling that BS to 'D now!' does a disservice to that BS and to new readers.

And rubbing a BH's face into the metaphorical shit he's in and blaming him for not going scorched earth NOW adds injury to injury.

Further, D is usually not the opposite of what these people did.

The problem I see in the BTW people is that they didn't figure out what they wanted. Some, at least, and maybe most, focused on their WSes, not themselves. Others didn't set firm boundaries. Others, maybe most, didn't directly attack their own illusions. They didn't get real - and getting real is the way to heal.

I agree that D was probably the right decision for the BTW folks. I think they effed up in their healing. D is an obvious alternative to what they did - but so is getting real much earlier, and that's just one of many alternatives.

I do not mean to blame the BTW crowd.

I guess I do mean to say that the folks who didn;t see the necessity to D until a long time after it became apparent were blind to at least part of reality - and in telling new BSes to 'D now!,' they continue to blind themselves.

You gotta look inside to heal. The answers are inside, not outside.

*****

Lack of Empathy

What I really have a hard time dealing with is the insistence by the Burn-the-Witch folks that the new BS must D immediately from BSes who took their own not-so-sweet time deciding to D.

To those folks:

You had a very hard time deciding to D. You know the personal barriers you had to get through to come to your decision.

How the hell do you presume to tell other people who are strangers to you to and who have their own obstacles to navigate to just suck it up and D - when you don't know if R is possible, and you don't know what the people involved want.

I welcome posts that say, 'This is what I did, and it didn't work. In retrospect, I now know it can't have worked. You need to consider D as one of your options.'

I welcome posts that say, 'It looks to me as if you're doing _____. I did that and it didn't work. I don't think it will ever work. If you don't change what you're doing, you'll stay on a path that's likely to bring lots of pain. You need to consider D.'

I really hate to see posts that say, 'You're a cuckold! You're accepting crap from your W! D now!' I especially hate to see those posts from men who accepted tons of crap from their Ws....

I also hate to see posts from men who say, 'My W did _____, but I'm in R. I would never accept what your W did. D now!' No one knows how they will respond to a stressful sitch until they're in it.

*****

It's best to tailor responses to where you think the OP is and needs.

If you're going to project - and we all do to some extent - the least you can do is remember when you felt and though what a poster does and write something kind that you would have liked to hear.

You may have need 2 X 4s after months or years of living in a horrible situation, but 2 X 4s are very rarely appropriate for new BSes.

Babette: Generalizations about how M/F pairings are balanced or complete are not respectful to those on SI whose orientations are different.

Here's another tip of a hat to you. Great point.

DD: But you always know if your child is actually yours or not. No matter what.

Yes, that is one thing that a BH experiences that a BW cannot. That is a horrifying reality, that men wind up needing to DNA test their children.

In the absence of a strong resemblance between father and child, that's ALWAYS an open question.

(My brother and I look alike and ike our father and grandfather. I don't see much physical resemblance between my son and me, though.)

Every man whose partner has a child has to decide for himself to accept the child as his own or not. It's just part of being a father. Personally, I looked around, considered my W's behavior, and accepted my son as mine.

This is one of the very few situations in which I think it's appropriate to say: Man up. Make your decision and accept the uncertainty.

If, in later years, you come to doubt your paternity, man up again - decide to have the child tested or not, and decide what you'll do if you're not the bio father.

I have great sympathy for any man who has good reason to doubt his paternity. I can imagine how painful that is. I can imagine needing a lot of time dealing with the doubt. In the end, though, decisions are made, and you'll have to deal with the consequences.

*****

Once social engineering (and I do NOT use that term in a pejorative sense) veered from "men and women are equals" to "men and women are the same", well the shit hit the fan because the latter isn't remotely true.

I would venture to say that the consensus is that there are gender related differences when it comes to adultery.

Again, the question isn't 'Are there differences between genders?'

The question is, 'Are the differences due to nature or nurture?'

How about we encourage the new BH to be firm, take no BS and calm ?

well, it's hard to be calm when one has JFO.

Thank you for bringing this up.

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:51 AM, August 9th (Sunday)]

Yes, that is one thing that a BH experiences that a BW cannot. That is a horrifying reality, that men wind up needing to DNA test their children.

In the absence of a strong resemblance between father and child, that's ALWAYS an open question

.

I find this side discussion not very germane to CT original post... but I’ll comment anyways. It is possible that a woman unknowingly raises a child that is not hers, but it didn’t happen very often in the history of mankind... and I have never read that the child was an offspring of an AP.

I’ll let the reader guess how it happened

Sisoon, where's the like button? I find a lot of 'justification for hypocrisy' from the BTW group. There is no justification for hypocrisy. Your job on this earth is not to save people because you didn't save yourselves; it is simply to save yourselves. If you can help someone along the way, great. But there is no justification for the hypocrisy or judgmentmental attacks caused by anger at yourself over your own shortcomings. I do wonder if the attacks are a type of projection that allow the Burn the Witch gang to righteously stand up for themselves in the way that they have not able to do irl? Vicariously getting it right?

But we only control ourselves, and no, you don't make peace with your shortcomings by "saving others;" you instead make peace by saving yourselves from the bitterness and disappointment in your mistakes, forgiving yourselves for vulnerabilities or trust or neediness that you feel hurt you in the end. Now you want to kill it in others. I think the Burn the Witch group needs to stop trying to fix others and instead work on fixing themselves--inside, at the emotional level. It's quite obvious that emotionally speaking, these people are not ok. The new BH is unfortunately just caught up in the crossfire of the emotional inner battle the BTW gang is waging against themselves and the world.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 1:54 PM, August 9th (Sunday)]

Regarding the BTW mentality - it’s the reason I continue us to post. To show it can happen and you can happily Reconcile.

There are very few times I personally post to just D unless it’s been an extremely abusive situation (like physical violence) or the cheating has gone in for years and the cheater clearly shows they will not stop.

I think the supposed "Burn the Witch!!!" bias is a non-issue. If you think too many people are recommending D, put your best argument forward as to why you think R should be considered.

But it's not about the R or D decision, as I've pointed out. It's about the overtly hostile nature of the postings and the crudity directed at the WW. I read one post just today, which literally slipped into first person and yes.. managed to get "spread her legs" in. It was an otherwise innocuous post of opinion, but why is it necessary to get that jab in? What does it accomplish?

When I read crude remarks directed at a WW, my thought about the poster is that he either hates his wife or he hates women. Either way, he's exorcising his own demons at someone else's expense. These crass remarks are meant to shock, to rub another BH's nose in the vulgarity of the injury so as to elicit revulsion.

CT,

Did you get answers you were looking for?

A lot of posts here, in this thread, is about how men and women are misunderstood, and how unfair this or that is... and very little posts about how to address (interact?) with new BH.

I just opened this thread to make room for a side discussion that was starting up on someone's personal thread. But I do think it's a thought-provoking discussion worth having.

It's about the overtly hostile nature of the postings and the crudity directed at the WW

Don't remember which poster said it, a page or so back, but the idea was raised that men are less "burning the witch" and more "snapping the BH out of his delusions."

I think there's good evidence for that. And it's far better to feel anger than hurt.

BH vs BW pain

I would say the pain is equal but different.

The sex bothers the BH more.

The emotions bother the BW more.

Though the BH gets hosed legally in the the courts more.

“When I read crude remarks directed at a WW, my thought about the poster is that he either hates his wife or he hates women. Either way, he's exorcising his own demons at someone else's expense. These crass remarks are meant to shock, to rub another BH's nose in the vulgarity of the injury so as to elicit revulsion.”

Yeah, the over the top attempts to be vulgar and crass does seem unnecessary. The “he needs the slap in the face or a 2x4 to wake up and deal with it” seems to be a too convenient excuse to be unnecessarily crass. There are other ways to get a new BH out of denial without that crap. But it is what it is. I doubt that anyone engaging in this type of posting is actually thinking: “Gee, this will be so helpful for him”. There are some threads where you are reading and it reminds you of just what it was like to be in the 7th grade boys locker room. But everyone has their own approach and deserves credit for coming to the forum to help a newly BS. To each his own I guess.

I would say the pain is equal but different.

The sex bothers the BH more.

The emotions bother the BW more.

Untrue in a great many cases. I never cared what my XWH said to the whores. I just cared that he'd slept with them.

Untrue in a great many cases. I never cared what my XWH said to the whores. I just cared that he'd slept with them.

exactly my feelings, Dee. WTF did I care what he said to the OW, he was a fucking liar fucking a liar.

And it's far better to feel anger than hurt.

Not necessarily true. And regardless, the two aren’t mutually exclusive.

Anger has its place, as does hurt. And both need to be processed in order to heal and move forward. I think a big part of the problem that some people have is the tendency to stay in the anger as a mechanism for avoiding the hurt.

And I think that is the place where a lot of the vitriolic posts come from. Well, that and an urge to try to re-litigate ones own past through another’s present circumstances. Which also doesn’t work.

Both behaviors are a sure fire method for staying stuck in one place.

Anger has its place, as does hurt. And both need to be processed in order to heal and move forward. I think a big part of the problem that some people have is the tendency to stay in the anger as a mechanism for avoiding the hurt.

Just added that to the quote thread.

Great Discussion! Excellent insights from all sides.

I can tell you from my experience that it very much seems that family, friends, society and the legal system has let my WW off easy-if not rewarded her, and has judged me more harshly. Everyone wonders what I did to make my WW cheat-it must have been horrible. It must have been some sort of subtle and insidious psychological abuse.

"Because, women just don't cheat without good reason...they don't just cheat for sex-like men do...they cheat when their needs are not being met...when they've been horribly neglected...and only out of desperation."

Since Paris and Helen to new age literature which has plenty of "Heroins" who are empowered by their affairs and cheat with abandon (i.e. Eliza Kennedy, Katherine Heiny, Jill Alexander, Paula Hawkins like novels) has society cheering on the liberated WW and blaming the men for falling short of their expectations, not tending their gardens, and just reaping what they sow, getting what they deserve.

The men are looked at by society as the manager masters of their households and a cheating wife is the result of gross mismanagement and the men are disgraced and criticized for either neglect, abuse or, just being poor judges of character.

When a man cheats, he's simply just a horny bastard, a perv, or a sexual deviant.

When a woman cheats, there MUST be more to the story...

Betrayed men not only get less sympathy from the public, they are blamed for their predicament and shunned by, laughed at, by other men who regard them as cuckled disgraced losers. Men are expected to get over it discretely and "suck it up-like a man" and make the problem go away post haste.

When there is trouble in a family, it is society's expectation that the Man fixes things, gets things under control. It is very unmanly to be a victim, to be victimized, to be taken advantage of. When a marriage fails, admit it, we're all guilty of it, our first impulse to blame is directed at the male.

Yes I know, that ironically, we men are very much responsible for these macho stereotypes.

Not only do men lose their spouse, their dignity, their marriage, and their ability to ever trust again-like any BS, they also lose, to a greater degree, the respect of their peers, their jobs seem more seriously impacted, they usually lose in court, and many times, they have to fight to keep their children.

With layer upon layer of insult to injury and less where to turn for support yeah, I'm not surprised-at all, that this conversation is so lively.

However, I'm sure that our Sisters in pain have their very own unique set of difficulties that us men are failing to fully comprehend.

Strangely enough, the one thing that haunts me to this day, seven years out, is not the crude, crass, visceral, primal, physical, "spread her legs...bodily fluid" stuff, it's the act of betrayal itself, the continuing acts of betrayal and the total lack of remorse from the person I spent 25 years with, had children with, and who claimed she'd "Love Me Forever And A Day."

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 8:56 PM, August 9th (Sunday)]

Don't worry just give it the test of time. Her true colors will show. You will move on just fine. You were at a disadvantage as you did not know your marriage was in trouble. She was able to set the tone with everyone.

It's good to know that so many have the best interest of your Ww at heart.

Everyone wonders what I did to make my WW cheat-it must have been horrible.

Everyone? Everyone you know approaches you and says this? I find it far, far more likely that you are suffering from assuming things that simply are not true. My brother divorced his cheater, and no one ever gave him the impression it was his fault. Well, that's what he tells me.

This statement that "everyone" asks what you did is such an exaggeration as to reveal your fear and insecurity on this subject, not what has in fact happened.

I believe that men fear a divorce means they have failed at being a husband, so they interpret every sigh, nod, question, head tilt that they encounter to be an accusation. But it's projection. These people are not blaming you. You are blaming yourself.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 11:06 PM, August 9th (Sunday)]

There's much discussion in this thread with a lot to process. Some information is enlightening, while some reminds me to leave the rest... but I just want to answer the OP without the thread's progression:

Does anybody feel like there's an imbalance in the way WW's are treated as opposed to WH's? I oftentimes see very vitriolic posts, advising new BH's in the most florid of terms, terms which are obviously designed to inflame the BH's injury, that they should deal with they cheating wife in the most hostile manner possible. Sometimes advice such as exposing in the workplace, even after a divorce decision has been made and when it might harm a BH's divorce settlement, is forcefully argued. I've noted that it's not unusual for these threads to grow and grow, but seldom do we see the same on BW threads.

What say you SI? Are WW's treated with more contempt than WH's???

I never worked in journalism but I read a lot and learn a lot. In journalism, there's apparently two key slogans:

If it bleeds it leads

Sex sells

Since (IMHO) men don't usually have as much of a predisposition to opening up and showing emotional vulnerabilities to others (due to societal expectations), other BH's feel the need to be as blunt as possible in as quick of a time as possible because they know or feel that others won't IRL.

The reason (again, IMHO) for the BTW crew is simply that those who have been BTW for years and continue to remain on SI simply have pent up anger toward any WW as a projection of the anger toward their own WW's.

The reason I brought up the two slogans above is because people in general are drawn to drama and many times will feel the need to express their comments when the subject is controversial.

For me when I feel the need to post on a very active thread, it's regarding something that I experienced or may be experiencing but it's not due to there being controversy to comment upon. Those threads grow and grow because people continue to heap in their projected anger and disgust, take sides & set up camps... etc.

That said, I'm personally grateful for the vitriolic responses that I received as well as all of the encouragement and advice I was provided with. Thanks to both, I was able to clearly see where my lines were drawn - especially based upon my reaction to those specific hostilities or suggestions.

[This message edited by SaddestDad at 8:46 AM, August 10th, 2020 (Monday)]

"Because, women just don't cheat without good reason...they don't just cheat for sex-like men do...they cheat when their needs are not being met...when they've been horribly neglected...and only out of desperation."

Sadly, this results from a stereotype that hurts both men and women. It's as if people are surprised that women enjoy having sex for the sake of sex. When men cheat, people often assume the woman is frigid and not "taking care of her man". So the BW is left being looked at like she's frigid and sexless and the BH is left looking like he must be a real asshole. These stereotypes absolutely exist.