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My take is that communication gets better, which in turn makes the marriage better on that level, the WW don’t have the same feelings as how the sexual aspect of what they did tarnishes the marriage. To them the affair worked like a charm to make the marriage better for them, while the BS suffers, mostly in silence, while having visions of their WW having sex with their AP. For the men they want to keep the marriage, so it’s not worth it for them to open the can of worms. They don’t want to send their WW back into a shame cycle, so they just swallow the sandwich.

First off, this isn't just about the BH/WW dynamic. Women can have just as much trouble getting over the sexual aspects of adultery, and men can find just as much comfort in the return of good communications. If it were as generalized as this, it would be better for WW's to file for divorce and never bother to explore the possibility of R, because what you're saying is that men can't heal. Which leads me to my second point...

Healing isn't about anything the WS is doing. Certainly, in R they need to have made the changes necessary to be a solid partner again, but other than that, healing is in the hands of the BS. There is NOTHING a WS can do which will MAKE a BS heal... particularly if they don't want to. Many times, we hold on to our pain, as if it had some intrinsic value. It's almost like if we were to release it, the offense against us wouldn't matter; WE wouldn't matter. Maybe we would be in danger of it happening again. Maybe the WS would "get away with it". Maybe we've "settled" for something tarnished and dented and can no longer take satisfaction in it being "ours" (a misguided attempt at "ownership"). Whatever. There are lots of reasons to hold our injury close and refuse to release it. But we don't heal UNTIL we release it.

I took an accountant's view of it, even though I'm not an accountant. I checked my balance sheet, realized that there's no way my WH could EVER pay me back for the pain he'd caused, and wrote off his "debt". This wasn't at the beginning, of course. This was after I felt he'd done everything he was capable of to become a safe partner, because that's ALL he can do. He doesn't have a time machine. And I can never be completely sure of him, but it didn't matter that I was completely sure of him before. It turns out, the only one I need to be absolutely sure about.. is ME. I'm stronger than I was, less dependent, more confidant in my ability to be on my own if needs be. I've dealt with the last vestiges of my innate fear of abandonment. I'm not going to get splattered again, bug meets windshield. I'm enough now.

A sense of honor has always been important to me. If I say I'm going to do something, I do it. I said I would try for R, so to hold onto a grudge, past the point where everything possible had been done to remediate its cause, would have clashed with what I view to be My Word. That's not to say I never have pain, only that I don't hold onto it. I don't indulge it. I don't cleave to it. If I get a trigger, I notice it and I allow it to pass. At this point, it's just the ghost of a thing that once happened. It has nothing to do with who I am TODAY.

Who I am today stands by her choices. My WH didn't MAKE me choose R. I chose it for myself and I will treat that choice honorably, not holding back and not nursing a grudge. I haven't been tied up and tossed in the trunk of his car. I'm the driver of MY life. I may have been victimized, but I'm no longer a victim. I am free to change my direction at any time, so long as my sense of honor is vindicated by that choice. So, if I choose to leave, it's not going to be because my fWH cheated five years ago. It's going to be because we can't find even footing in the now.

We don't have to choose to keep a cheater. We just don't. The daily trappings of life might make it harder for some than others to break free, and it might take longer to organize an exit, but no one is truly trapped. I think if we do choose to stay, it's incumbent upon us to do our work, get our healing accomplished, and be as good as our word.

Bluewater wrote:

"Usually it is like a dull background noise and I can usually ignore it so that it does not really affecting my functioning. But it is always there. Always. And sometimes it just becomes too much and I feel the resentment bubbling inside and I have to take some time by myself to try and control it until it all settles back down to the level of background noise once again".

In my case the "dull background noise" that mostly doesn't affect my functioning, as Bluewater put it, until it sometimes does was a huge improvement over the previous angst and triggering that preceded it shortly after dd1 and especially dd2. I can see that I had some emotional growing up to do and that I lacked much ability to self soothe. Although through difficulty I did grow in these areas.

So here is the rock and hard place:

On one hand continuously talking about the betrayal to a defensive spouse who has largely retreated into silence, whose true feelings are difficult to discern, to keep up the litany of "oh poor me" eventually can amount to rubbing their noses in it, as mine said I was doing in those days when it was so on my mind I alternated between either dragging out anorher long discussion again or desperately tried to work on trying to reconcile somehow.

On the other hand, there is the danger of complete stoicism on the BSs part to not rock the boat for the WS while resentment festers and whatever love or spark that still remains dies a slow death, never to be revived.

Isn't the latter what often happened in some of the cases cited by others who seemed to be R'd?

The first hand is obviously a poor choice and the second is better but won't lead to a real R where there is love and intimacy.

Now what?

[This message edited by Seneca at 4:42 PM, September 2nd (Wednesday)]

On one hand continuously talking about the betrayal to a defensive spouse who has largely retreated into silence, whose true feelings are difficult to discern, to keep up the litany of "oh poor me" eventually can amount to rubbing their noses in it, as mine said I was doing in those days when it was so on my mind I alternated between either dragging out anorher long discussion again or desperately tried to work on trying to reconcile somehow.

On the other hand, there is the danger of complete stoicism on the BSs part to not rock the boat for the WS while resentment festers and whatever love or spark that still remains dies a slow death, never to be revived.

Or you can go a third way and realize that your pain is about YOU. It has to do with your relationship with yourself, whether you feel like YOU are good enough or capable enough, whether you still have lingering fears of abandonment, whether you have overly proprietary feelings regarding your spouse, whether you can allow your WS's problems to be theirs and not yours, whether you're dependent upon others for validation and emotional succor, whether your relationship with the universe insists upon justice, etc.

Our pain is ours. The source of it is not what happened to us, it's how we exist in relation to that happening. The blow itself severs us from connection to our primary person. The residual pain lingers when we try to reconnect with an unsafe source. The REAL safe source is ourselves. And when we're whole again, it's just sharing, not reliance.

The replies so far have been amazing. My intention wasn’t to in any way minimize what a betrayed wife goes through. The origin of the post was specific to a comment I made on HO post (who posted here about it so I assume it’s ok to comment about it now) about how they made it. I mentioned that I’m suspect when WW talk about the strength of the marrige, but said theirs is the real deal. Another poster asked a question, and I didn’t want to T/J.

The second thing is I have first hand knowledge about how many betrayed men suffer in silence. I didn’t have that same first hand knowledge as I haven’t communicated with betrayed wives about it. But no doubt, the same feelings probably happens with them. I do have some first hand communications with some WW that their marriage had blown up when they thought things were good

I think the posts from blue water, Bewuzzled, and fenderguy are exactly what I was speaking about.

We too were looked at as that great couple. Especially her. At that point she was bending over backwards to accommodate me. The worst was when we we out to dinner and the other couple would tell me how lucky I was to have her as my wife.

Her face would pale as she knew this would be enough to send me down the rabbit hole. It just pissed me off. The ride home, and the next few days were brutal. I would just shut down. In the beginning she tried to talk to me about it, but one look from me ended any conversation about it. While they were praising her, my mind was how would you feel about how lucky I am if you knew the truth.

I know some have been able to put their feelings of hurt and disgust in the trunk and focus on R. Just isn’t me.

For us it wasn’t she thought things were good, but as I said she saw some yellow brick road that would lead us back. I saw A path full of a bunch of thorny bushes That led nowhere.

My point in all this is not what should be, but what probably happens more than a WS knows. While the WS now has the best marriage ever, the BS has to carry the burden of getting fucked over for the rest of their lives.

That said, their are no absolutes like in HO case. He seems to be on board that the marriage at this point is good. But like others here have said, it’s not a given that the BS in R doesn’t have hidden pain.

I hope that no one ever comes to the conclusion that the affair was worth it, but I suspect a few WS do think that

There was a very small study done by psychologists Charney and Parnass where they surveyed other therapists about the results of cases where a spouse committing adultery. Thirty-four percent ended in D. 43.5% continued but were rated as distressed or unhappy. 6% rated empty and 9% as improved.

That's roughly 50% as very much less than desirable. There was no way mine would have been in the improved category. The 50% no way to live, IMO. I'm in the 34% of this small study.

From my own experience when you get no response or negative responses to questions you give up on asking the. Communication about issues that weigh heavily on you ends. When you get IDK, ICR, emotional breakdown, shutting down, defiance, anger, excuses, blameshifting, etc. communication eventually ends. When there's no more questioning or confrontation everything must be hunky dory. Except it isn't. The shit sandwich tastes horrible.

For the men they want to keep the marriage, so it’s not worth it for them to open the can of worms.

Well, here's the problem. You don't want to open the worms so eat the shit sandwich. Do you think the saying, "You have to be willing to lose the marriage to save it" only applies to those who want to D? Just the opposite. It applies to all who do not want to feast on shit sandwiches.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 7:18 PM, September 2nd (Wednesday)]

Is this something more prevalent with men I wonder?

More common? Hmm, I'm going to refrain from answering, but it is common. Very common.

Eta: if women file for 70% of all divorces, do you think it may be very common for men to choose the shit sandwich over the worms??? Evidence suggests . . .

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 7:20 PM, September 2nd (Wednesday)]

ChamomileTea, completely agree that the BS must own their own stuff and that acceptance is the path past the pain into healing. These are the biggest things for me that moved me from victimhood (self imposed, I eventually understood) to a place where actually my relationship with MYSELF improved and peace and clarity returned.

But my interpretation of what the OP was observing is that men, later clarified by the OP to include any BS was that a common pattern is that the WS at some point

post-A thinks all is well while the BS is quietly internalizing lots of residual "stuff" and is not really reconnected in a satisfactory way. In many cases it seems that the BS to one degree or another has in fact achieved some personal healing--I have-- but that the true movement toward intimacy and love is lacking for them and they endure this often in silence.

Is the case perhaps that the WS essentially gave up on real love, intimacy, respect, honor, etc even before their A (that would make choosing to cheat easier, wouldn't it?) and thus afterwards during supposed R have very low expectations of what is available for them in the relationship, essentially conveying to their BS: let's just rugsweep this, you be quiet about it and I'll pretend that now I love you again and that all is well. Oh, and leave me alone more and I can pretend better.

Lots of pretending by the WS? And inadvertently perhaps the BS to a degree joins the pretending but finds it imminently unsatisfying at the least and maybe frustrating and resentment provoking at the worst which festers over time?

Will time heal all wounds? To the relationshio, I mean. It doesn't seem so. Well, when one partner dies, maybe.

I think we all MOL have identified the phenomenon the OP described and many feel it. Now, WHAT'S THE WAY PAST IT? Or is there a way past it? Are all who feel this destined to live out their lives with this increasingly withering as a result of their decision for family or assets or whatever else to not D?

[This message edited by Seneca at 7:23 PM, September 2nd (Wednesday)]

While the WS now has the best marriage ever, the BS has to carry the burden of getting fucked over for the rest of their lives.

Alternatively, the BS can CHOOSE to not going around for the rest of their lives feeling fucked over. If that means D, so be it. But if a BS chooses R, they are bound by honor to get their healing accomplished. Otherwise, they are not a person of their word. They've offered faux-forgiveness, and THAT is on them. There are no time machines.

I think that for many BH's, it's the sexual humiliation, the insult to the BH's identity as a man, that lingers. My observation generally from threads here on SI is that R is more likely to succeed if either (a) the sexual humiliation factor is relatively moderate or low, or (b) the WW figures out a palliative, a way to assuage that in her BH.

I think of WWTL and FG's threads. In the case of WWTL, the sexual insult inflicted by his WW's A was very high. There really wasn't any headroom left for her to offer something healing. In the case of FG, the sexual insult level may be low, but his WW has done little or nothing to ameliorate it.

I have read threads by BW's who express similar feelings. I'm sure it is a factor.

Or you can go a third way and realize that your pain is about YOU. It has to do with your relationship with yourself, whether you feel like YOU are good enough or capable enough, whether you still have lingering fears of abandonment, whether you have overly proprietary feelings regarding your spouse, whether you can allow your WS's problems to be theirs and not yours, whether you're dependent upon others for validation and emotional succor, whether your relationship with the universe insists upon justice, etc.

Yes. This is very true.

I think that for many BH's, it's the sexual humiliation

Do they work on this in IC? Then they have not tried to heal it. They want their WW to heal the wound, but it's inside the BS. They need to do it. Do they? Do they work on it in IC?

Seneca has. To what result? Does it help? I believe it does. Help the M? That is a different story.

1. WW fixes herself. Did she? How?

2. BH fixes himself, including his sexual humiliation. One's ego belongs to one's own self and is healed alone. Not through a partner. Remember, outside validation is not a valid path. Just like we tell waywards.

3. Then together you heal the M.

If a BH is complaining, I want to know if all three of these steps have successfully been addressed.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 7:43 PM, September 2nd (Wednesday)]

Lots of pretending by the WS? And inadvertently perhaps the BS to a degree joins the pretending but finds it imminently unsatisfying at the least and maybe frustrating and resentment provoking at the worst which festers over time?

I don't think WS are necessarily pretending. Just like everyone else who can't truly empathize with the existential crisis of intimate betrayal, I think they genuinely just don't get it. This abandonment didn't happen to them. They might truly empathize, but it's like you would empathize with a woman's experience of childbirth. She can tell you in great detail, but you can't really FEEL it. I didn't understand until it happened to me, and when it did, I couldn't understand how other people just couldn't connect with what I was describing. Even the most repentant of WS don't know what it is to have EVERYTHING you ever believed go under question. In this respect, I feel like many of us continue trying to get blood from a stone. It's not that some of them aren't truly, deeply sorry and willing to remediate the flaws in their character. It's simply that they can't conceive the depth of the betrayal.

from victimhood (self imposed, I eventually understood) to a place where actually my relationship with MYSELF improved and peace and clarity returned.

You're healed.

the WS at some point post-A thinks all is well while the BS is quietly internalizing lots of residual "stuff" and is not really reconnected in a satisfactory way

Your M is not.

1. WW fixes herself. Did she? How do you know?

2. BH heals himself. Great, Seneca! You did that, and it is necessary work.

3. They work on the M together. Well, if the WW does not want to do this--as evidenced by their acting as if the M is already fine--then what's it gonna be, worms or shit sandwich?

Sorry.

That's the dilemma we all face.

All.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 7:40 PM, September 2nd (Wednesday)]

I think that for many BH's, it's the sexual humiliation, the insult to the BH's identity as a man, that lingers.

If you ask me, "sexual humiliation" is part of the ego OIN referred to. There's something whiffy about the idea that a man validates his ego via sexual dominance over a female, even when that female is his wife. A healthy ego shouldn't be that fragile.

We are at a point now where we have been together longer than many of our friends marriages. We have seen friends get married, get divorced, and get married again during the course of our marriage. I feel like people look towards us as "couple goals". My wife has the reputation in our community as someone with a heart of gold... almost a Mother Teresa type. People would be absolutely shocked if they knew about her A. Most people would think I was the more likely one to stray. When I was younger, I had a bit of a reputation as a playboy, a wild, hard-partying type... it sticks with me to this day even though that behavior is long behind me. I often hear things like "Man, you're lucky she settled for you!"

My WW has never told anybody of her A except her brother and sister, who are both in no position to judge anybody. I haven't told anybody at all. Sometimes it drives me crazy when my wife acts like "EVERYTHING IS GREAT". Must be nice to justify it in your mind. "I was in a bad place, I worked through it, and now it's all better". She doesn't think about the things I think about. Like whenever I think to myself "damn, her ass looks nice in those shorts", my mind immediately goes back to "I'll bet OM liked her ass too...". And then I'm down again. Ugh...

[This message edited by Fenderguy at 7:58 PM, September 2nd (Wednesday)]

On a related note, some weeks ago I was in a slightly pain-shoppingy mood so I went to the Reconciliation section to look at the "Positive Reconciliation Stories" thread. I was somewhat taken aback at how relatively few male posters there were.

Had the same reaction myself

I decided rather than suffer in silence to simply move forward with divorce. Once I made that decision I felt about ten times better. I met with an attorney today and have a much clearer picture on how to proceed. It’s looking up.

My wife would be absolutely SHOCKED if she knew that I'm still struggling like this, 4 years later. She is completely over it... why can't I be? Should be simple, right?

This isn’t going to end well. There’s a guy on here who is now dealing with this all again 40 YEARS LATER because he tried to swallow his pain only to have it crawl back out of his throat again bigger and badder than ever,

But if a BS chooses R, they are bound by honor to get their healing accomplished. Otherwise, they are not a person of their word. They've offered faux-forgiveness, and THAT is on them. There are no time machines.

If you ask me, "sexual humiliation" is part of the ego OIN referred to. There's something whiffy about the idea that a man validates his ego via sexual dominance over a female, even when that female is his wife. A healthy ego shouldn't be that fragile.

Just Wow. So a guys whose wife did all sorts of sexual Acts that she said she didn’t like over and over with her AP is not only a big wimp cause he has a problem with that, but is also not a person of their word cause they can’t get over it How about doing your best, staying with someone who broke just about every vow under the sun, but just never getting to the point of forgiveness.

Maybe it isn’t-the BS’s dominance that should be in question, but rather the dominance she let her AP have over her that caused the problems in the first place? How about if the WW didn’t get on all fours and let her AP go at her anywhere and everywhere. Oh sorry, that was just a little mistake that a snowflake BS should just accept, understand and forgive.

Then if you try to R, but the wounds were too deep, you should be ashamed that you are now the problem.

Talk about blaming the victim. Which I’m sure will be met with you are only a victim in your mind which is a bullshit statement.

You can get past it, but make no mistake, if your spouse fucks someone else, you are a victim

[This message edited by waitedwaytoolong at 8:59 PM, September 2nd (Wednesday)]