SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Ultimately the ONLY way to a successful R is ALOT of honest hard conversations.. And unfortunately alot of men (myself included) struggle to have those.. Partly as we don't want to rock the boat anymore.. We don't want to divorce.. But mostly as we don't want to hurt our WS.

I think you are right about having hard conversations. Both that they are uncomfortable, and we don’t want to rock the boat. It’s funny, yet kind of sad we didn’t have many real conversations. The first year was just me voicing my anger, so not a lot on her end for replies. After that when I realized what an asshole I was I just kind of shut down. Again, not good for real conversations.

Talking about it later, even though I knew it should be done, was just too painful. I think is probably the case in the situations that started the thread. The BS is just sick over the whole thing and doesn’t bring it up. The WS then takes that as things must be ok if he or she isn’t busting my chops.

I wonder how many WS actually bring up the affair a few years later if there is no overt trigger to warn them of an issue. I’m not so sure I would.

Its a terrible thought, but I can’t help feeling that some WS feels like they won. They got exciting sex, and kept their marriage. The process was surely painful, but in the end they get everything they wanted. Especially as in the case of what prompted the post where they feel their marriage has never been better

Well,

Consolation may not be the right word, but we know your XWW probably doesn't feel like she won.

No Apache, she lost big time. She also wasn’t one of the WS who felt things were great. She was just hoping things would be good enough and that time might make things better.

It also isn’t really consoling. We both lost.

The pain may lessen, but it’s always there.

It is truly something that I very rarely think about at 10 1/2 years post d-day. If I do happen to think about it, very, very rarely do I feel any hurt/pain/anger related to the infidelity. It is so in the past and I don't dwell in the past. The present is really all I can handle. I am sharing this point to make sure others are aware this doesn't have to be a lifelong hurt/pain/sorrow.

I had a much longer post but, as usual, OwningItNow and ChamomileTea covered everything I wanted to say and they said it better than I was.

I wan to echo SisterMilkshake and the others. As many, many years out and in R, the anger/pain/hurt is not something I think about and is rarely there. It is not a festering sore that continues to hurt. Rather, I would describe it as a scar on the body of our M that has healed and is faded. But if by chance I rub my hand over the faded scar I remember how I go it, but the pain is just a memory, not an ongoing companion. I do not linger in the past. Rather focus on the present.

Fenderguy: is it possible things might get better if you told your wife how you're hurtin, and resentful?

You haven't told her how you're feeling every day because you're pretty sure things will get worse (divorce).

Life's a risk, take one here, tell her. You're married to her.

Its a terrible thought, but I can’t help feeling that some WS feels like they won. They got exciting sex, and kept their marriage.

I’ll be honest, the idea of “winning” actually makes me pretty uncomfortable.

I am one of the WW’s that feels my M is better now than prior to my A, however we use the term despite of it and never because of it. I consider myself fortunate, but I didn’t win anything. My affair destroyed my husband, destroyed my marriage, and hurt my family in ways you can not just “fix”. I often wonder what the long term affects have been. Would my husband or my children be different or happier?

I am over 10 years post DDay. I still talk about my affair, although I understand that my involvement (and his) on this site may have a large impact on that. I think it’s partly why I don’t leave. I am afraid to become too complacent.

Although I no longer key shame drive the bus, there is still far too much of it for me to ever feel like I’ve won. Ten years later, I am still a work in progress. I imagine that to be the case for the rest of my life. I am just grateful that I was given the opportunity.

WOES, thank you for your reply and all you do here as a moderator. Your story is a good one as both you and your husband have come out of it with a better marrige. I don’t doubt the immense pain you went through.

I’m just interested in that if you were faced with a binary choice back then to have an affair, work through it, and end up where you are. Or to not to have the affair and the marriage continued on the path that it was on which I gather wasn’t too good.

I know the easy answer is I wish I would have talked to him, but if that wasn’t in the equation, is where you are now worth it.

This is without a doubt one of the most interesting threads I have read on SI, with respect to the initial post by the OP but also inc the many T/Js thrown in. There are so many valuable tidbits that I would like to commit to memory so I plan to read all the posts again over the next few days.

For now I think my WGF & I fit the description that the OP was referring to so I would like to add my two cents or twodozen cents.

My WGF would 100% say that we have a far better relationship post A and from her perspective she would be right. Today (9 months from Dday) we do everything together, we cook, clean, watch films, listen to music, garden, shop, drink, walk, run, date, we have refound our best friends and soulmates plus almost every cake is in stock and available for immediate consumption...

But

She has done little to nothing to deserve any of this this other than stop the A and lovebomb me. She has gaslighted, TT’d, stonewalled, justified, refused to go to IC, read 1 book, cried and avoided talking about it to the point that I decided around 6 weeks ago to just STFU and take my time to decide what I want.

I have worked on me, I am in IC

Together we have worked on the “M” or equivalent for unmarried couples

She has not worked on herself and absolutely does not want to look in the mirror and see for herself that her halo has slipped.

It seems I have 2 choices going forwards

STFU and eat s*** whilst enjoying our new found “connection”

Or

Separate, untangle our lives, split the assets and become a weekend dad (or as someone told me “cut off my nose to spite my face”)

Coming back to the original question posted by the OP

Will she be shocked if I decide I can’t eat s*** any longer? yes she will be very shocked that I still see it like that because it’s “in the past” and “she will never do it again” because she’s “better now”

[This message edited by TwoDozen at 11:21 AM, September 8th (Tuesday)]

I wasn't silent during our False R although I did hesitate to bring up the A too much. Once I did bring it up and XH said "but you seemed OK!", and I flat out told him "I have to pretend just to get along". It's hard NOT to think about the A. My XH's A was with a local woman in our same small town. I had to have the pleasure of running into her at the grocery store, etc. For months I would look for her car in the parking lots. In the end, just like you, I had to end the marriage for many reasons but bottom line, the A and the aftermath ended up being the dealbreaker. I have zero doubt I did the right thing.

You mentioned honest hard conversations. I think this is one of the main reasons for my divorce. XH was completely incapable of having any hard honest conversation - even after he blew up our 30 year marriage. Also wouldn't get help. I was in IC for 2.5 years and I didn't do anything wrong. Just thinking about this cements my decision.. still hard to go back to that time emotionally.

I know the easy answer is I wish I would have talked to him, but if that wasn’t in the equation,

That’s a false dilemma. Asking someone to choose only between two unattractive choices while pretending that alternative choices don’t exist maybe be interesting for discussion, but it doesn’t really help at all in drawing any constructive conclusions or solutions.

The fact is that talking was an option. Talking always is an option. Talking might not always give you the result you are looking for, but you won’t really know that unless you give it a shot.

In the example of my wife and I, I would argue that talking would have achieved the result desired (a better marriage) based on the evidence that now, after 10 years of talking, we have a better marriage than we had pre A. It isn’t the fucking affair that made the marriage better, it’s the communication. And that shit could have happened without the affair.

It just didn’t. More’s the pity, eh?

I think that miscommunication or the lack of communication is kind of the theme of this thread. If a BS is not happy and their WS thinks things are going great then that is a huge fucking problem. And it’s a recipe for hanging in limbo for far too long before shit inevitably fucking falls apart.

We are all adults and we need to use our words to express how we are feeling. And yes I know that that sounds fucking trite and it’s really not that easy. In fact its usually as hard as fucking hell to really open up and talk about your feelings. Most especially if the person you need to open up to is a person who has demonstrated a lack of care for your feelings... who has demonstrated themselves capable of being dangerous.

Putting yourself and your feelings out there in a situation like that? Allowing yourself to be vulnerable to someone like that? That shit is superhero level hard. And it isn’t something most people can or would want to do. Nor should it be. But if (big IF there) you are going to try to stay in any kind of relationship with your wayward it is really the only way it’s going to work.

I know it’s hard . Believe me, I have struggled over the years. Bottling up my feelings for hours or days before finally managing to force myself to talk about how I was feeling. It’s part of the BS’ work. But the best thing about that work is that oftentimes it does work. Most of the time, for me, it ends up leading to a satisfactory conclusion. But get this, even when it doesn’t, I still always feel better for having gotten that shit out into the open.

And more importantly, gotten it out of me where it could only fester...turning dark and destructive.

So often I see BS’ posting about something they thought about saying to their WS before deciding to hold back and bite their tongue. And I just want to scream “FUCKING SAY IT!” If you are fucking mad say it! If you are sad say it! It doesn’t have to be vicious, it doesn’t have to be cruel (although I would argue some leeway on that one is to be expected soon after day) but it’s YOUR fucking TRUTH and you should be able to say it. No matter the consequences.

If your WS can’t handle hearing your truth then they were never going to be able to make it to the finish line of R anyway. So damn the torpedoes and full fucking speed ahead.

Of course that’s just my opinion and, as you all know by now, I am as full of shit as the next guy.

HT

For the first time, we saw the acknowledgment from a guide that the numbers trend strongly toward general unhappiness in a reconciliation long term thus the OP's point should not be a surprise to anyone, even the +/- 5%-9% who believe they are happy.

Unfortunately for the OP, there is a fair amount Guyanese KoolAid peddlers in the thread. Many will say one thing and when challenged, retreat into a circular discussion that would make a politician envious.

Reasonable advice would be:

1. Do not manage as if YOUR relationship is the exception to the data. Past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior, the environment and motivators may change but changes in a person are rare and a long term endeavor.

2. The first people who question your honor are usually those without, thus do not allow them to conflate the situation and subsequent actions.

3. Remember fear is the enemy, knowledge your ally.

4. Your choices are your own, be it martyrdom, happiness, or something between or different entirely. They are your choices and can be changed and YOUR discretion.

I'm seeing a lot of generalizations about men and women here. It reminds me of the joke about the ideal date for a man is the woman shows up wearing just a trench coat wth a pack of beer while the woman's ideal is roses, a nice dinner and long walk holding hands.

That said, I think everyone can get to the point where this is a deal breaker. I could get past the emotional side, but knowing about the sex was a deal breaker for me. Perhaps that doesn't make me a typical woman. I've heard arguements of staying for finances or the kids but I couldn't without feeling like I was settling. I was a SAHM for years and he makes far more than I do, but I just couldn't. I hated what he had done to my world, my kids and everyone that ever cared about him. And most of all, I hated who I was because I was associated with him.

That said, even if he had tried to do ANY work towards R, it wouldn't have worked out because I would never have trusted him again. But on the bright side, he told me that I should thank him for the affair as it would make our marriage better. He's right about one part. It makes my marriage to someone else much better.

As part of my recovery, I read and learned a lot about healthy relationships and my marriage now is wonderful. The communication was always rough because my EXWH didn't want to grow up and talk about adult things like finances. My new husband sits with me and insists that we talk about such things so we can plan for the future. It's a total 180 from what I was used to.

HT, thank you for the response. I think you both are a testament that reconciliation can happen. And that both people can end up happier. My guess is you are in the minority where both are happier, but that’s just my opinion and not based on facts. Just anecdotal conversations that I have had from betrayed men whose wives are happier, and they just are along for the ride.

I do agree that hard conversations need to be had. I’m guilty in being one the BS you mentioned that didn’t want to have the hard ones. I yelled for the first year, then shut down after. I fall into your list of guys that refused to be vulnerable to the person who broke my heart.

Affairs can be a catalyst for a marriage to end, or in your case la huge shock for change to make the marriage better. I still do wonder, especially in a case like two dozen, was the affair worth it for the WS in that in the end they get a better marriage. A better marriage that might have never happened without the affair.

Do you think you would have ever had the communication you have now if the affair never happened? Were either of you close to opening up to each other?

@SnowToArmPits

I think Fenderguy is playing the Walkaway Husband role.

It feels like he accepted that his wife will never try harder than this.

And he is tired or too scared to tell her.

And he will leave her when the oldest will be 18.

I think he should talk to her. And tell her. Things are not better.

owningitnow's posts are on the money.

you have to heal yourself.

WWTL WW appears to be a truly regretful and remorseful

WW.

the score: a win for the OM, losses for the BH, WW, kids,

family.

25 year marriage lost, 5 years lost since D day. A family ended

prematurely.

wait till there are the daughter's weddings, grandkids, baptisms,

family milestones, celebrations. all lost before these new

things are to happen.

I think he should talk to her. And tell her. Things are not better.

If she really doesn't get it, then why bother? She's had her chances.

The problem with doing an R that makes the marriage better, where both BS and WS are reasonably equally satisfied, is it requires behaviors that are on the knife's edge.

Yeah, a marriage can be improved by better communication. But keep in mind, pre-A, there is usually going to be slacking off in communication and other facets... by the WS. Possibly years of it. So the WS slacks off, then has their A. Who do you think is going to be doing the "hard work" of communication improvement? You guessed it... it's going to be the BS.

So for "good R" to work, WS has to be doing most of the work. Sometimes all of the work. Sometimes 150% of the work, meaning that the WS should fix everything that they broke before the A and things that are broke during the A. There's plenty of times I don't think a BS should do a damned bit of work post-A. Just decide if they want to stay or not.

The problem is that the BS who are more likely to stand up for themselves are likely more interested in D as well. Because they see the WS for what they are.

The people here who apply for R includes plenty of BS who want to R on Day One. Who are all too willing to play the pick me dance, to post on the R board on D-Day. These are people who are willing to do most if not all of the heavy lifting in keeping the marriage together. Because that's what they did before A, and they're too scared to upset the status quo. So they go a few years down the road, maybe more As, before they finally get up the nerve to think that things are not so great. When you add those to the number that are in the middle of child rearing and stay primarily for that reason, it's a high percentage of marriages that are counted in those "attempting R."

Old truck you are pretty spot on too. No baptisms though. Jewish.

He did lose a little in that he got his family and friends to invest in his business and promptly lost it all. He was run out of town with workers looking to break his legs.

In the end as much as he was an asshole, she let the whole thing transpire. The blame is always more on her. He didn’t owe me anything. He was a snake doing what snakes do.

Affairs can be a catalyst for a marriage to end, or in your case la huge shock for change to make the marriage better. I still do wonder, especially in a case like two dozen, was the affair worth it for the WS in that in the end they get a better marriage. A better marriage that might have never happened without the affair.

Do you think you would have ever had the communication you have now if the affair never happened? Were either of you close to opening up to each other?

I added the italics to the first part of your statement because I want to emphasize it and flip it around on you a bit. I think that the real catalyst for the changes that made the marriage better was the potential that the marriage was about to end.

Allow me clarify: I think that real change is very difficult for most people to achieve; the emotional price and pain are just more than they are willing to pay. The notable exception exists when the price of not changing becomes even higher. That’s why alcoholics have to hit rock bottom. And it’s why that rock bottom looks different for everyone. Rock bottom is when the cost of not changing has finally exceeded the effort of changing. I’ve know guys that had to lose virtually everything before they felt like that, I’ve also know guys that got there real early...And I’ve know guys that never got there at all.

It comes down to what each individual values the most highly. I think that on some level my wife and I valued our relationship very highly. We had taken it for granted for sure, and our appreciation of it had become obscured, buried as it was under the weight and detritus of our own personal mental bullshit. But on a core fundamental level we both valued it a great deal. This idea may seem to be contradicted by her actions I concede. But it is easier to understand if you are able to accept that on a base level she never really allowed herself to truly believe or even really look at the potential consequences of her actions. Much like a smoker knows, factually, that cigarettes are going to kill him one day, but chooses not to think too much on that or really even believe it on an emotional level. This concept may come a little easier to me than most since I have a history of addiction. Self delusion, rationalizations, justifications and out right denial are concepts I have personal experience with.

But I digress. I think that WOES and I were unable to really talk about our personal issues because that shit is scary and it is ever so much easier to simply sail along with the status quo. And so you just keep on keeping on until the weight of all that unsaid shit hanging over you seems so heavy that you are sure it would crush you both if you ever cut it loose. That danger is scary but it’s contained it’s not immediate it can be put off and kicked down the road.

But then something happens that makes the danger immediate. Didn’t have to be an affair. It could have been something as simple as either of us saying to the other:

“This isn’t working for me. I think we need a divorce.”

Saying it and actually really meaning it.

And actually, in the end, that is exactly what did happen. After 3 months of struggling with R and variations of the pick me dance and the trickle truth shuffle, I finally realized that I was miserable and the idea of staying in a relationship that was making me miserable was no longer tolerable. The relationship we had had was not working for either of us, and the previous three months of trying to fix it weren’t working any better. So fuck it. I was out.

And that is when shit got real. That’s when the cost of not changing became greater than the cost of changing. That’s when she truly and on a base level realized that she was about to lose something of value. It was real and immediate. It was no longer something she could deny or kick down the road. WOES could see that I meant it, it wasn’t a threat, it wasn’t a bargaining chip, it wasn’t a tactic or a strategy. Matter of fact it was breaking my heart because I still loved her. But I had finally come to realize that love is irrelevant to wether or not a relationship can really be healthy and work.

So she changed. Most people take the important things in their life for granted. They never really understand what they value and care about most until they get it cut away from them. Till they get carved right down to the bone. That shit happened for me on Dday. Took about 3 months and me walking out the door and meaning it for it to happen for her.

And I get that we are probably the exception. I realize that a lot of WS’ simply do not value the marriage enough to do the painful backbreaking work of changing, or they simply do not have the emotional equipment necessary to make the changes required, or the courage to face their own perfidy, or the maturity to see their own flaws, or the empathy to understand their BS’ pain. Take your pick , they all result in the same outcome and it’s sad and it sucks.

And I realize that even if the WS has all of that available to them and more, timing and pure dumb luck play a big part. I think if I had waited just a few more months before walking out the door it would not have had the same effect. I think that would have been enough time for her to build a narrative in her head that let her off the hook. And she would have shored that narrative up like the beaches at Normandy. There would have been no way to get through those defenses without more casualties than I would have been willing to bear.

Sorry I am going off on a long thread jack here...

The basic answer is that no I don’t think we would have gotten here without some kind of marriage ending event, but I don’t think it had to be an affair. The affair was the catalyst for the marriage ending sure. But the marriage ending was the catalyst for the change.

I think it might be helpful for more people to look at it that way. One way or the other it might help them spend less time in limbo.

HT

HoldingTogether, that was a beautiful post. Thank you. I completely agree and lived the same realizations.