SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Anyone with merely an average IQ can reason thru that when they take the risk of stepping into an adulterous relationship they are putting their marriage and family in harm's way.

Yeah...I mean come on. One's IQ has to be so low that they have difficulty tying their own shoes and require assisted living to not 100% understand that cheating on someone is hurtful. Matter of fact, anyone who didn't know that wouldn't have bothered to sneak around. They'd have just come home to their husbands with "OMG I met the hottest guy today and we have a date tomorrow!".

Speaking as a divorced guy, the claims that "there's no bullshit between us any more"; frankly you can get that with a new person. You can get fantastic sex with a new person too.

Agreed. There are countless other people in the world with whom we could fall in love and never have infidelity involved. There are many reasons to R, but it shouldn't be because there isn't anyone else out there for us. That's absolutely not true. There are many many compatible people better and worse for us out there.

[This message edited by Jimmy1962 at 3:54 PM, September 10th (Thursday)]

Anyone with merely an average IQ can reason thru that when they take the risk of stepping into an adulterous relationship they are putting their marriage and family in harm's way.

You would think would be true, but I think in most cases the WS cheating in an otherwise happy isn’t using reason. I think in my case she thought after every time they did it, it would be the last. In the end she thought the end of the renovation would end the chapter. She didn’t count on getting caught. And she not only isn’t average IQ, but smart as a whip

Once she was caught I think she felt it wouldn’t be a marriage ending event. We had a 25 year history, she was going to end it and never wanted to leave me, he didn’t mean anything. All the usual WS thinking that led her to believe things would be ok. It wasn’t until I canceled our 25 anniversary trip that she knew she was in trouble.

In hindsight it became clear how delusional she was. Especially as she knew me better than anyone in the world and should have known how much what she did would damage me. And she saw how I reacted in the past when I was fucked over.

She was convinced that love, at least hers, would win in the end. Didn’t work out for us so well

Jimmy1962 you have a pm.

An A is a shitty thing to do, no doubt about it. No matter what the WS's intentions may be, by cheating, the WS damages the relationship and causes deep pain in the partner.

But normal reasoning is almost never part of a decision to cheat. Neither the WS's IQ nor EQ keep a WS faithful.

I don't see how any BS can take an A as an attack against themself unless the WS intends to attack the BS. Treating the A as an attack against self is treating the A as a Drama Triangle.

It's not. An A is for real; it's not a play that takes place in the BS's mind.

An A is almost always a matter of a WS's failure to resolve the WS's issues. An A is almost never about the BS. If a BS treats the A as a Drama Triangle, the BS probably won't heal.

If you don't heal, I don't see a high probability IMO of finding a new great relationship.

Sisoon, you are right on paper, but I think rare when a BS doesn’t take it as a personal rejection. I agree you need to get past it, but you can’t control hurt feelings when your spouse is fu*king someone else. Especially if it isn’t a ONS and they go back again and again.

But bottom line you are correct. They aren’t for the most part thinking about you

To kind of recap this, and my opinion only

BW’s can go through the same thing, although if they have a truly remorseful WH, are more likely to totally forgive

There are BH’s that truly have a better marriage after their wife’s affair. None however think the affair was the right way to go about it. Though not rare, this is the minority

There are a good amount of marriages after the affair where the WW thinks they are happier than ever, while the BH suffers in silence. My advice here isn’t to do this. Let out how you are feeling or it one day will just erupt

The last is the BH whose wives think things are ok, even good, but the BH is lying in wait for an event like kids graduating and at that point will leave. Good chance when the time comes they just go up to point number 3.

Just my take

Conversations like these are the masterclass level. People here bringing years of experience and hard work and deep thinking. People here fresh with the d day experience so it's not clouded by time and many examinations of it. This is better than any book because it's not one point of view.

This is what is needed. Great voices all listening. All sharing. Wish it could go on out in the world where it's needed so badly.

What we learn here is more valuable than we know.

I feel surrounded by greatness, compassion, truth telling, fairness, generosity, kindness. I want happiness for you all! However you come to it. We all came through pain to this school of self learning. Some powerful teachers here and for their gifts I am extremely grateful.

I don't have much to add on the subject. All I can say is that I feel no one should be silent about what they want or feel. I was and it brought me sadness. No one should hide who they are. If you feel you have to do this then you're not being fair to yourself. I sacrificed for the relationship too much. It wasn't good for either. I thought I was making it more by the extra effort. It's not good before or after A. Such a delicate balance. R is difficult and those who master it and find peace and happiness have some strong personal and relationship skills. Olympic strong.

It takes real courage, real honesty, real compassion. How many WS have that? I think that's partly why good Rs are so few. BS has hard work to do but WS has to make a huge leap. I feel sad for WS who make that leap and still lose BS. They should have not risked their happiness with the A but now it's the BS choice what to do with their life. Some BS cannot be happy even with WS trying and being a better person than before. No good to hang in there unhappy. Better to go and find your dream.

"They're not thinking about you" doesn't really have great connotations for me, since I got left. Ex more or less stopped thinking about me permanently. At that point, I was inconvenient, someone in the way, and she told whatever lies and insults she needed to so she could justify blowing up the family.

We want them to be thinking about us. I'm sure an executioner doesn't think about the heads he's chopping off either. Can't do the job if you do. The WS can't do the job of cheating if they're all filled with empathy and stuff. So that gets set aside.

So I don't know, not thinking about us is about the most vile thing I can think of right now.

Getting back on topic a bit, the story of the Prodigal Son can be applied to WS/BS.

For those who don't know, from the Bible, there are two sons of a rich man. The younger son decides he can't wait for the old man to die off and get his inheritance. He wants it NOW. So the old man gives it to him and the younger son moves away. Makes a bunch of friends with whom he spends all his money. Once the money is all spent, where he's living goes into a famine, and he has to pick up a job feeding pigs.

Younger son decides this is not such a good situation, and he'd rather be back with his father, even if he has to work as a hired hand or something. So he starts heading back home.

While he's travelling, the father finds out his son is coming back. He's overjoyed, my lost son has returned. He rouses all of his help and tells everyone to get ready to throw a big party.

Meanwhile, there's the older son. The older son has continued to work for and with the father, never disrespected him by asking for the inheritance, never left. Older son is not happy. Says to Dad, you are giving this party to him, why can't you give one little thing to me so I can party with some of my buddies. Dad says to older son, "You'll get everything, I'm just so overjoyed I have my other son back in the fold."

Now the younger son is the WS. Just couldn't resist something that probably felt very good in the short term, and having all of that money to spend on parties sure felt good in the short term. Then the money ran out. Now keep in mind that coming back to the family is still a completely self interested decision on the younger son's part. It's the best thing he has going for him and he takes it. And it works out for him.

The BS is going to be a combination of the father and the older son. Maybe start out as the father, "I won", I won't lose my marriage, etc. Then shift to the older son as the long term reality sinks in. The younger son has none of these issues, he just did what he wanted to do, and is grateful to be back. No conflict for the younger son. But the outcomes are far different. And even if the WS and BS talk about it, the facts on the ground of the situation aren't going to change. The WS has their wild partying years and got away with it.

To add to the above, "they're not thinking about us" doesn't get to stand in a successful R. BS HATE when WS says "I loved you all along." WS is not loving the BS during the A. Where the two of them take that is up to them, but the WS turning off empathy, having problems remembering details of the A, is in general just an excuse and evasion.

The last is the BH whose wives think things are ok, even good, but the BH is lying in wait for an event like kids graduating and at that point will leave.

I know a guy who is in this exact situation. He has been waiting 6 years for his youngest to graduate high school. He couldn’t stand the thought of being a part time parent.

She graduates 2021. I doubt his wife has any idea what’s coming.

"The last is the BH whose wives think things are ok, even good, but the BH is lying in wait for an event like kids graduating and at that point will leave."

This also happens to the betrayed spouse by the cheater. Cheater will declare love, I want the marriage, I am so sorry etc. But, is actually biding time for a more opportune exit. BS is happy as a clam, then boom, cheater comes in after the kid graduates, or some other event and says. Well I tried and I am just done. Oh and by the way, I drained the bank account.

I don't see how any BS can take an A as an attack against themself unless the WS intends to attack the BS. Treating the A as an attack against self is treating the A as a Drama Triangle.

Beg to differ here.

An A is not "just" an A - it's a whole host of unhealthy & harmful behaviors. I don't think I'm going on a limb to say that one of (if not THE) worst of which is deceit.

I liken having an A to fraud. Fraud doesn't necessarily require "intent" beyond the intent that the recipient of the lie rely upon the lie - which is absolutely what happens in an A (IOW, the WS tells the lie with the specific INTENT that the BS be deceived/gaslit about their secret sexual life). So - there is always a INTENT to deceive. I suppose the issue then comes down to whether deceit is akin to an "attack" against the person being lied to.

I don't know that I could say that a lie -esp about something so important to one's mental and physical health - is NOT an "attack" against another person.

Now, I can feel the lies were an attack against me, personally (and I would argue that "victim" place is both the actual/factual victimization of the BS as well as the BS feeling victimized). AND I can work through that and engage in behaviors that do not continue the drama triangle. Isn't that part of any victim's work in healing after being harmed by another?

To kind of recap this, and my opinion only

BW’s can go through the same thing, although if they have a truly remorseful WH, are more likely to totally forgive

There are BH’s that truly have a better marriage after their wife’s affair. None however think the affair was the right way to go about it. Though not rare, this is the minority

There are a good amount of marriages after the affair where the WW thinks they are happier than ever, while the BH suffers in silence. My advice here isn’t to do this. Let out how you are feeling or it one day will just erupt

The last is the BH whose wives think things are ok, even good, but the BH is lying in wait for an event like kids graduating and at that point will leave. Good chance when the time comes they just go up to point number 3.

Well, I can sign onto that opinion without any qualms, too.

*****

I think rare when a BS doesn’t take it as a personal rejection.

No argument there, either.

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying it's important to a BS's recovery to know that the WS rejected the BS because of the WS's emotional/psychological issues, not because the BS deserved to be rejected.

Part of healing is to accept the rejection AND to accept that the BS is loving, lovable, and capable of many things, including being able to attract a new partner and create a good relationship.

*****

We want them to be thinking about us.

But that's problematic - I'm not sure I want my W to be thinking about me while deciding to have sex with someone else. I think I might want her to compartmentalize me out of her A thinking.

In any case, it's essential to healing to know if the WS was thinking about the BS or not. It's essential to healing to accept the answer, and in most cases, according to testimony, the WS doesn't think about the BS much at all while cheating.

The WS should have thought about the BS and about a lot of other things, and the WS should not have cheated. But one fact is that the WS did cheat, and another is that the WS didn't take the BS into account.

If a BS is constantly ruminating along the lines of 'WS should have thought of me,' the BS will stay stuck. It's not that the proposition is untrue. It's that not accepting the facts keeps one stuck in pain.

The BS's best way to heal is to accept that the WS just didn't think about the consequences of the A. I'm not saying anyone should like that. I'm just saying that the BS should accept the facts as they are.

Accepting that the A was not an attack on the BS is neither here nor there for D & R. My W cheated; I chose R. Many others' partners cheated, and they chose D.

When the WS conducts an exit A, the BS doesn't have much choice. It's D, and the only choice is between healing, which means letting the pain go, and not healing - holding onto the pain. I can imagine how painful that can be. I can imagine how difficult it is to recover. But recovery benefits the BS.

The exit A is about the WS, not the BS. Yes, the BS was rejected, and that's immensely painful, but the rejection is due to a fucked up mind of a WS. I know it's hard to take that in, but it's true.

Holding onto the pain hurts the BS, not the WS.

Holding onto the pain will not hasten the arrival of justice; there is no justice where infidelity is concerned.

Holding onto the pain does not protect the BS against being hurt again, though it may 'protect' the BS from new relationships.

Letting the pain go is a way of honoring both the pain and the person who is in pain.

Letting the pain go does not in any way condone or forgive or forget the WS's cheating.

Letting the pain go does not mean one has to or will R.

In fact, letting the pain go can open up the way to D by enabling clearer thought, less subject to violent emotion.

Letting the pain go enables better decisions.

Letting the pain go is wholly beneficial to the BS.

Do you think there is an element of the BS simply not liking the WS, as a person? In a long-term marriage relationship there are multiple layers of feeling: erotic love, filial love, trust, empathy, understanding, friendship (liking the person as a person), trust, kinship born of sharing struggles together, etc. Not all of these always exist, but you get my drift.

We keep going back to WWTL's story, but in his case I think it was possibly that he simply didn't like his WW. The nature and degree of her A revealed something about her character that he had not previously seen in her, but once seen, it could not be unseen.

But that's problematic - I'm not sure I want my W to be thinking about me while deciding to have sex with someone else. I think I might want her to compartmentalize me out of her A thinking.

The empathetic partner doesn't cheat in the first place, because of the empathy they have for their partner as another human being.

It's not like the rest of us can't be tempted, or don't have opportunities, or can't create them. We can. We don't cheat. WS do cheat.

And for a lot of us, that's the only chance we'll ever get to deal with it. The cheating ends the M. With WWTL, who couldn't get past the cheating. Or with me, because my WW left the marriage.

As far as do they think about the BS, we are part of their narrative. Justified or not. My ex hated the fact that I worked out, because it made her feel bad. What she did didn't make me feel bad, and I don't see why what I did should make her feel bad to the point of hating me. But to her, it did.

Was that justified? No. But we only have one spouse at a time, and it's a lot of blind guesswork as to who's actually going to be a good partner. People get killed by their partners, they're still dead, and they presumably don't deserve it.

My ex left me for someone she knew before we ever met. I'm the one who has been compartmentalized. I'm the baby daddy, provider of child support, convenient baby sitter. That's all. I can move on, hang with other people who maybe might stick it out for the long term, but it's a high price to pay, and my trust is blown.

BFTG, you could not be any further off base if you tried. I can’t count how many times I have said that the person who cheated was not the same person as my wife. I specifically mention that after 25 years of marriage, and 5 years after that, there is no way that that was her true nature. No one is that good an actor. You can’t live with someone, even longer counting dating, and not have seen character flaws

That said, what she did during the affair was so bad that living with her just wasn’t in the cards for me I hated what she did, but I don’t think I hate her.

I have also said that if she needed a kidney I would be at the hospital in an hour.

I hope this clears this up for you

I don't know that I could say that a lie -esp about something so important to one's mental and physical health - is NOT an "attack" against another person.

Exactly so. Infidelity is a transgression akin to rape. Adultery violates a faithful partner’s body in potentially life threatening ways. The newest science on microbiomes suggests the violation is physically permanent regardless of any STD/STI. And given what we know about PTSI we can also reasonably say the mental damage is also permanent, even with the help of ameliorating tools such as talk therapy or EMDR.

How silly would it be to try to convince the victim of another physical transgression, such as a hit and run (in fact an intentional hit and run) that the perpetrator didn’t intend to hurt them and simply wasn’t thinking about them — but was only focused on the thrill of the joyride?

Very silly, if I can answer my own rhetorical question. We’d all be gobsmacked at the stupefying idiocy of something like that.

A judge would laugh such an argument out of court.

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:35 AM, September 13th (Sunday)]

couldn't get past the cheating

I know it wasn’t intended this way but I’ve always disliked this phrase because I think it represents a subtle form of blameshifting.

It isn’t on the BS to “get over” or “get past” anything. I think this is impossible and sets an unreasonable expectation for BS.

It’s up to the WS to be remorseful, have deep life lasting repentance and offer recompense. This can help ameliorate the transgression, but that’s all.

Short of a frontal lobotomy, a BS is never going to “get past” it unless of course he or she removes themselves from the very source of pain.