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I feel like everything I do or say is wrong. Because It is wrong. I am wrong and the abusive liar and cheater.

So is it wrong to have any expectation of or to demand that my BW give hope?

Is it humble, kind, charitable or even ok?

So is it wrong to have any expectation of or to demand that my BW give hope?

Demand? Oh HELL no!

WTR, read that back to yourself. You expect and demand hope for R from your BW. You, the currently still abusive and unsafe cheater, are demanding hope from your victim. Does it even need to be pointed out to you how wrong that is?

Are you posting because you really do need something that obvious pointed out to you or do you just need to talk and get validation? What else could you be doing right this minute that would be more productive? Reading about empathy? Doing an exercise assigned by your IC? Have you even talked to your IC yet about your goals for becoming more empathetic and less defensive with your BW?

Your not in a position to expect or demand anything.

Your job is to fix yourself and become a safe partner. To find true contriteness and remorse in your heart and soul. You have delivered the ultimate destruction upon a spouse and her healing is in no way certain, let alone expected or demanded.

You need some serious attitude adjustment.

It’s fine to have (realistic) hope. It is not ok to expect R or demand that one’s BS give one hope.

The WS always has a choice, just as much as the BS does. If you (or any WS) can’t remain in the M with there being little or no hope for R, then that is a valid choice. Be up front about it and D honorably.

We can’t control others. Only ourselves.

Frankly i posted this because BW asked me to at the tail end of a day long argument. I know I’m wrong and am an asshole.

My problem (One of many) is that there is no hope: I Was told I can’t act better becuse that is contrary to who I am and How I am still acting, so the idea that I re-evaluated my values and decided to try going in a new direction in life with humility, kindness and service and the actions that go with that, trying to work towards those values and traits.

Infatically it was explained that no can’t be a kind abuser, a humble liar or an abusive servant.

So I don’t know what to do, again. If I can’t change who i am to strive for something better becuse to do so is a lie, and lying isn’t better and still acting the same way. I have been told multiple times that i need to change, by her, by this board, in IC but now am being told that I’d be more authentic to stay the asshole I am.

It gave me no hope. So I asked for hope. And that was wrong.

[This message edited by wantstorepair at 6:44 PM, September 18th (Friday)]

wantstorepair,

BREATHE!

ok, so now. Do you want to change?! Truly. Do you want to be a safe partner?!

Answe this honestly to yourself. If the answer is no then that's ok but be honest about it.

If the answer is yes, then stop and think about what that means. It means that you know what you did/do and have done is NOT who you want to be.

This means WORK. HARD WORK.

I do understand you want hope from your spouse. Reassurance. Validation.. It is very clear that your compass right now is directed by others.

Stop and think about that one for a second. Regardless of any other person in this world. WHO and HOW do YOU want to live your life?!

Demanding and asking for hope from your BS is a sign of your own insecurity. At least that is how I am and it took me a while to realize this.

What you're describing has nothing to do with your BS but everything to do with you. You seem to me like you;re trying to tell yourself that you are remorseful by writing what a pos you are. But do you actually feel those things?

What is the expectations you have on yourself? Your wish? Do you feel like a victim yourself somehow? What does you BS mean to you? - so many questions ..

wantstorepair,

BREATHE!

ok, so now. Do you want to change?! Truly. Do you want to be a safe partner?!

Answe this honestly to yourself. If the answer is no then that's ok but be honest about it.

If the answer is yes, then stop and think about what that means. It means that you know what you did/do and have done is NOT who you want to be.

This means WORK. HARD WORK.

I do understand you want hope from your spouse. Reassurance. Validation.. It is very clear that your compass right now is directed by others.

Stop and think about that one for a second. Regardless of any other person in this world. WHO and HOW do YOU want to live your life?!

Demanding and asking for hope from your BS is a sign of your own insecurity. At least that is how I am and it took me a while to realize this.

What you're describing has nothing to do with your BS but everything to do with you. You seem to me like you;re trying to tell yourself that you are remorseful by writing what a pos you are. But do you actually feel those things?

What is the expectations you have on yourself? Your wish? Do you feel like a victim yourself somehow? What does you BS mean to you? - so many questions ..

Was told I can’t act better becuse that is contrary to who I am and How I am still acting, so the idea that I re-evaluated my values and decided to try going in a new direction in life with humility, kindness and service and the actions that go with that, trying to work towards those values and traits.

Infatically it was explained that no can’t be a kind abuser, a humble liar or an abusive servant.

So I don’t know what to do, again. If I can’t change who i am to strive for something better becuse to do so is a lie, and lying isn’t better and still acting the same way. I have been told multiple times that i need to change, by her, by this board, in IC but now am being told that I’d be more authentic to stay the asshole I am.

I don't know who told you to stay the asshole that you are, because that would be very strange to hear. Maybe they said "if you can't bother to change, then you may as well stay the same asshole that you are." BUT if you want to change, then do it.

Yes, you acting better than you are will be contrary to the normal, that's what change means.

No, you can't demand that she give you hope and R. You can hope that she will, but you can't make her.

Do you want to be a kind abuser? Isn't that an oxymoron?

If you want to change for the better, than work on that and hopefully become successful at it. If you enjoy being an asshole and honestly don't care about your BW or even want to wait, then do her the favor and give her a divorce.

Rose,

I often use too many words and platitude so I will answer succinctly:

Yes, I want to change

Yes I want to be a safe partner

I would like to live my life better than I have, and I’d like to do so in a way that positively impacts those around me. I don’t want to hurt anyone anymore.

Yes. I fundamentally hate who I am and my lack of integrity and morals and angry selfish entitled behavior always trying to avoid the consequences of my actions.

Expectations for myself? That I can do this. I can be safe and better. That I can change.

My wish. I don’t know, wish implies something is going to fall in my lap and that’s not reality.

What does my BA mean to me? Everything. But as I write that I feel shame becuae if that were true, I wouldn’t have done the cruel and awful things I did to her. That’s not how you treat tour Everything.

So I just don’t know anymore

I can read what you're saying and see you beating yourself up. While owning what you have done is a must, this is not it. Beating yourself after a certain point it will prevent you from growing into someone else. The only thing that shame will do is cause you to fall into deep depression.

Have you done some research about shame vs. guilt? Do you really see yourself right now as the person you were during your betrayl, or has something changed?

I would bet that you are not exactly the same. If you truly want to change then start NOW.

Something my BS told me will forever be in the back of my head. I told him that he deserves better. His answer was: THEN BE BETTER.

Also a quote that means everything to me in my own current situation: Knowing is not enough, we must apply. Wanting is not enough, we must do. - by bruce lee.

Bottom line, stop and breathe. You can start NOW. Realize that there is ups and downs and there will be many fails. But every decision you make from here on out is part of the process.

I understand the shame. I was even very defensive just a couple of weeks ago... beating myself up seemed like the right thing to do. To punish myself - after all, I absolutely hate what I have done to my BS. To us. BUT, continuing to fall into depression and beating myself did not help my BS. Instead, he used his energy to try and help me in a way... (this is something I am also very ashamed off). Basically, even tho I had the good intentions, I continued to use the tools I had/ my old skewed up coping mechanisms. Self pity, needing others to feed me validation.

- it is very different from that vs. asking for advice. I did not realize this until I took some very harsh comments to heart.. those people that told me how I posted was for myself etc.- they were right!

I want to stress the expectations point: (I'm not even sure that expectation is the right word).

- More so: Are you determined to look at yourself critically. To not just destroy the bad parts but to lean into them and figure out why they are there in the first place? (people would refer to this kind of as part to figure out your why's). To me, it is actually to getting to know who you are vs. who you were.

After that, they more than likely will be replaced by good parts.

Wishful thinking does not imply that it will fall into your lap. More so, envision your wishful outcome of this. That is different than your goal.

Your goal must be about you. What you can control. Your wish can be R. It is something you do not control.

I know what you mean by saying "if that were true then I would not have done what you did", well, have you ever considered that you were not able to fully give because you were not even open with yourself?

I don't know you. So maybe I am totally wrong. But I am here to help and assuming the worst of you would not help anybody right now.

There is the need to wake up from that shame loop tho. It will only bring destruction. Once in a while you will fall back into it. But don't stay in that loop. No good will come from it.

You cannot demand anything from your BS. What you can do is decide for yourself what you want and need. But be careful, our thoughts are not always true. Our own brain is a master manipulator because it will automatically try to protect yourself... things seem counterintuitive in a changing process. That is normal.

Become the person you want to be. Start NOW to work towards your goal - as painful as it is, start now.

It gave me no hope. So I asked for hope. And that was wrong.

Why was that wrong?

The big problem with words is that they are cheap.

I'm not saying you don't want all of that. But "wanting" is not enough.

I think it's normal to expect and demand hope from your partner. It's a natural reaction to fear and a need to control the outcome for our benefit. It's not helpful nor is it viable. But it is natural.

In fact, in order to actually change, you are going to need to find the tools (via a professional) to take what you do naturally and rewire your reactions to the reactions that you want to have as a better person. It's hard. It'll take a long time and a lot of work.

Change is possible. You have to want it. You have to work for it.

****

What does my BA mean to me? Everything. But as I write that I feel shame becuae if that were true, I wouldn’t have done the cruel and awful things I did to her. That’s not how you treat tour Everything.

Your partner shouldn't be your everything. No one's partner should be. It is an impossible role to fulfill.

****

You're not going to IC to be a safe/better partner. You're going to IC to change the fundementally damaged elements of your personality so you can be better to yourself. To make decisions driven by a better set of moral ideals. If your partner chooses to wait and give you the gift of reconcilliation, that's amazing. And if not, you'll have to accept that as well. You can't properly heal/change if you have a conditional placed above the process.

I hope your journey goes well. Good luck.

[This message edited by forgettableDad at 8:33 AM, September 19th (Saturday)]

wantstorepair,

You lack a basic concept of fairness and are entitled.

You are demanding that your BS give you hope to remove the pain of uncertainty from your life, while totally denigrating your BS's feelings of uncertainty that you could cheat again.

The fear that she has is being downplayed by you, so she is not feeling safe or understood.

I view you as selfishness, unchanged and unsafe. You continue to make your own bed but look to find external blame or reasons.

You are a lot of talk with little action. What are you doing to be a safe partner?

Thank you Rose,

Yes, most certainly yes I want to explore me and all the whys and reasons, (which I have done and continue to do as I don't think that process can ever be complete) and want to be a better person.

Our arguments often circle around the notion that I fundamentally am not a good person, and there for the notion that I can be good is flawed. I am assuming that premise is true, and have set my sights and goals on only being better; better than I am now and acting better each day.

My goal for the values deep dive and reassessment was to get on a better path with actions daily that were what a good person would do. Figuring that If I at least did that, I would do no more harm. Maybe never get to that place where I could say "I am good" but at least look at my actions every day and be proud of what I had done that day then try and do it again tomorrow.

I absolutely lost it yesterday when told that nothing I did was valid, my path new path was crap and a lie and that I was wasting my time.

I lost hope. I stayed in bed staring at the ceiling for hours this morning trying to make sense of it all and I failed. I have no idea what to do now after yesterday, and am without hope today.

JBWD; I dont know. I have often struggled with the the idea that, "why would i do something if i didnt from the start have a notion that there was at least a chance of success?" Why not put my effort into something that has a chance, even 1% of working out."

BW always tell me I am looking for guaranteed outcomes. I disagree (another argument). I cannot control the outcome. even if I do everything right it still might not work, and it certainly doesn't guarantee how she might feel. I am lonely looking for a direction. So I ask her what she needs and wants so I can try and do that, and not just flail and guess. Is having a starting point and direction that has a hope of success wrong? Apparently it is if you are a cheating lying abusive asshole. So I am lost today, and being no good for her. Trying to keep my shit together for my kids and keep my job, and figure out what to do with life.

Shame versus guilt. You are internalizing as shame. Worry and obsession can be forms of control. Guilt focuses on behavior, and behavior can be changed.

I stayed in bed staring at the ceiling for hours

WTR, You seem to "like" focusing on shame to avoid changing your behaviour.

Again, what are you doing to become better?

Bobpar,

Thank you and I beleive you are spot on with your assessment of me. I am all those things.

I am not a safe partner. My efforts yesterday to reframe my base values and thinking, realign my daily actions to those values and then act with consistency and constantly assess myself to be self aware was my latest effort.

I have given her an exclusive use agreement for out marital home and will not break it.

I am trying to figure out daily what she needs and how to meet thoise needs for her. Failing.

She equates it to the lucy pulling the football away from Charlie brown every time. I get the anaology, and all I want to do is hold that football, even if I get kicked in the face. But it is too late, she already has no faith I will hold it, so will not ask for anything, or say what she wants for as you said, her fer of being downplayed and minimized and let down.

She tells me all I have to do is stop defending, arguing, minimizing and justifying. Agreed and understood.

My failure is looking at that request and only seeing what NOT to do...not what to do, so I flail in inaction and fear of causing more hurt.

I dont want to hurt her anymore.

She tells me all I have to do is stop defending, arguing, minimizing and justifying.

Are you seeing IC? I do these and have to work on my view of self worth, so I get it. The uncertainty IS hard. I hate it. Hate It. But it is a life skill and I have a situation were I am trying to live in uncertainty. And I hate it because it hurts and its hard. But it's like working out. The muscles hurt but they get bigger, so I tell myself.

I don't know what steps would be helpful. If I was going to advise myself I would firstly say get into IC intensely. I also found Journey from Abadonment to Healing helpful. The section on Little self and learning to nurture self. Melanie beattie Co-D No More, just because I figure if self is strong than you have the extra to give. Regardless if you are Co-D or not.

to reframe my base values and thinking, realign my daily actions to those values and then act with consistency

Behavior is hard to do if you don't rearrange the core thinking. Again, that is just what I did from my experience.

[This message edited by BobPar at 11:31 AM, September 19th, 2020 (Saturday)]

One thing to remember is that your BW is going to have better days and worse days. The baseline is never great to begin with, but if she encounters triggers, or if you say something thoughtless (which is, unfortunately, typical for a WS), that's going to create the same sense of pointlessness and hopelessness in her that it does in you. That's piled on top of her incredulity at your betrayal and the blows she's taken to her self esteem, so sometimes, she simply isn't going to be able to filter her criticism in a constructive way.

You should listen to your BW when she tells you how she's feeling, but that doesn't mean you need to internalize angry claims that you are permanently irredeemable. I'm trying to write this carefully, because I don't mean you should dismiss her complaints or invalidate her pain. I'm saying that your ear needs an interpreter. If she says, "You need to be honest with me" and "You can't blame our problems for your cheating," she means exactly what she says. But "You're a hopeless, worthless piece of shit" probably translates to "I'm furious at what you did, and terrified at what it means for my future, and I have no idea what's going to happen next. I don't know if you can change, and I don't know if it even matters, because I don't know if I can bear to try. I'm afraid that if I trust you, and you betray me, I'll never recover. I can't believe you did this, and I want to hurt you so you'll understand how much I'm hurting." It's much safer to keep you at arm's length than to make herself vulnerable, and that kind of venting limits your power over her.

But fortunately for you, your ability to change and grow and become a better person does not depend on her. You can do it anyway, for the sake of yourself, and your family, and your future, whatever shape it may take. Even if your marriage proves irreparable, you can become a version of yourself that you can be proud of. But it will never happen if you lie in bed staring at the ceiling and ruminating about being a permanent asshole.

Part of the argument yesterday was about how I have done nothing and am lazy as far as the manual labor and getting things done at the house she now lives at, many of which have been undone for a long time.

I blew up because the conversation I thought was about me changing the way I act and thing and character. So I said:

"...and if that's all you're asking me to do is go into manual labor then fuck that's all i'm going to do is manual labor. I guess that's all I'm good for and that's all you want our of me right? not to actually change who I am despite the fact that that's what you said I need to do."

What I wrote was my frustration about apparently you only wanting manual labor, not changing how I think and act, which is where I put my efforts on Thursday, not into manual labor.

The other part of that argument was about an electronic car key I broke during and argument by using it to cut open a box, this was two years ago and I have yet to go replace the key. She told me that using the key like scissors was careless. I, trying to be agreeable, actually argued back that it wasn't careless implied a mistake and that it was lazy and deliberate because I was raging around and did not go get the proper tool.

So was I wrong to try and take full ownership there? I feel like If I were the one who brought it up and described my actions in that case with the word careless I would be yelled oat for minimizing my actions.

I cannot seem to communicate at all without minimizing arguing defending or justifying.

So I ask for your wisdom here:

Is that’s the mark of a humble, kind, charitable, remorseful cheating liar offering his hard work and services?

What am I supposed to do?

[This message edited by wantstorepair at 12:01 PM, September 19th (Saturday)]