SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It’s not the affair that tainted it as much as my H was cruel and had such hatred towards me.

Um, yeah, this is the affair.

It's all part of the adultery-as-abuse package.

Understanding that one shouldn't compartmentalize these behaviors by WS's as "this is the affair" vs. "this is another thing" has been really important in my continuing work to heal.

OIN, I don't think innocence is just being naive or young and inexperienced. I think it's also a lack of corruption of the marriage. So yes, I believe having some innocence in a marriage is a good thing. Obviously I am here asking the question, so I believe that it is.

Also FYI, my first comment was

Looking to hear from other betrayed spouses and partners (sorry W and MH).

:)

Is it good to have innocence in a marriage?

I have to agree with landclark. We know that married people are adults, so "innocence" in that sense is silly. And I don't think that's what was being asked, in any case.

But if we mean by innocence that a sanctified marital covenant is non-corrupted, filled with trust, a pair bond of two become one flesh in a sacred dance, and a lifetime of faithfulness ... well, I don't think that's too high a bar to ask.

Thumos, exactly.

if we mean by innocence that a sanctified marital covenant is non-corrupted

Ok, and I get this. But, that's not coming back. We know that. So what is it that is being looked for or expected past that knowledge? If you want non-corrupted, how can one be looking for that? I simply can't grasp what it is that people are looking for once they know there has been cheating. It is a confusing concept to me. What is this innocence one might want after there has been cheating, if you are speaking of factually non-corrupted?

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 7:16 PM, October 23rd (Friday)]

I have a few questions about the concepts in this thread:

1. Is innocence a good thing? Isn't it typically associated with being naive and/or young and inexperienced? So is a long-term marriage supposed to have innocence?

2. Is it a good thing to have this kind of trust, or was it naive to start with?

3.Again, if I was the kind of person who missed every sign, I would not be happy about that? So is changing and growing a bad thing?

4. I guess the idea of "getting the innocence back" is confusing to me. Is it good to have innocence in a marriage? Am I not understanding this concept correctly?

OIN, sometimes when I read something like this, I get the impression that there's some thought process that says "you getting betrayed isn't so bad because look at all this growth you gained". Am I reading this wrong?

Like the marriage afterwards is better because you don't trust them fully or look at them with a sparkle in your eyes?

As in, you aren't so easily fooled now and you should never have trusted that much anyway, so "lesson learned"?

Maybe I'm not taking this the way you meant it. Maybe I'm not self-aware enough, but I don't think that I'm a fool. I trusted the amount that one should trust in order for marriage to even be an option. I truly do not see the point in marriage if you can't fully trust the person you're married to not to cheat on you. That seems like a risky endeavor. Reality is that we can get cheated on without suspecting a thing no matter now not-codependent or world-wise we are. But if I had to go into a marriage thinking "yeah, this person might cheat on me", I'm not going into that marriage. I'm going to need to trust that they are of good character and will not do that to me. If they do anyway, it's not that I was foolish for trusting them. For any chance of happiness in the relationship, I have to believe that they wouldn't do that. Is that naivete on my part?

The innocence thing matters, btw. I won't repeat what Thumos said, but that's what it means. Even after years and wrinkles, there's a tenderness and special bond that needs to remain. Otherwise, what really is the point of marriage or relationships in general? If you take trust and specialness out of the equation, might as well just have a string of FWBs to cycle through and avoid all that legal paperwork altogether.

OIN, you don’t get it, and that’s fine. I feel like you’re now trying to TJ. Please stop. I don’t need to explain this concept to you or why it matters to me.

Even after years and wrinkles, there's a tenderness and special bond that needs to remain.

Yes, and the loss of that is sad.

[This message edited by landclark at 7:37 PM, October 23rd (Friday)]

Maybe the idea of marriage as ever being innocent sets us up for disappointment? If instead we get rid of the idea of innocence or purity, which I believe might be overly idealized, then there is space for accepting what marriage actually is--two imperfect people building a life together. It's another way of looking at it that doesn't focus on loss and instead embraces what is, what it maybe always was going to be--hardships and faults. Kind of like the pedestal discussion, I don't think marriage belongs on a pedestal. Nothing does, unless you like being disappointed.

Just a different way of looking at it that works for me and some others. It certainly hurts less.

If instead we get rid of the idea of innocence or purity....

Argumentum ad absurdum (stretching your argument to the breaking point to see if it survives the stress test) I suppose we could do this with all of human affairs.

One suspects you wouldn’t like this hypothetical world very much.

Interestingly you’ve stumbled on one of Haidt’s foundations of morality in his research - the sanctity/degradation continuum.

Some people lean more toward the sanctity end of the continuum, which is where we get people like Martin Luther King or notions such as treating the body as a temple. Some people lean toward the degradation end and have a low capacity for what Haidt and his colleagues calls the moral emotion of revulsion.

Taken to this extreme this can land you in a mire of “anything goes” and “if it feels good, do it” problematic ethics..

If we did as you suggest, marriage as an institution would lose most objective value and we could just treat it as a collective waste dump, I suppose. I don’t like that idea.

Maybe the idea of marriage as ever being innocent sets us up for disappointment? If instead we get rid of the idea of innocence or purity, which I believe might be overly idealized, then there is space for accepting what marriage actually is--two imperfect people building a life together. It's another way of looking at it that doesn't focus on loss and instead embraces what is, what it maybe always was going to be--hardships and faults. Kind of like the pedestal discussion, I don't think marriage belongs on a pedestal. Nothing does, unless you like being disappointed.

Just a different way of looking at it that works for me and some others. It certainly hurts less.

Imperfections aren't the problem. Anyone I've ever had a relationship with was an imperfect person. I'm an imperfect person. It's like, let's say I hire a housecleaner. Her imperfections could be that she folds the towels differently than I do and vacuums the carpet in a different direction. Sometimes she stacks the dishes opposite what I do. Kind of annoying, but not a big deal. She can stay on. Let's say she cleans the house pretty well, but takes a shit on the middle of the floor, smears it on the walls and leaves it there. Imperfection or did she fuck the whole thing up and ruin our contract? Do I say "well, you can't expect her to be perfect. The problem that housecleaners face is me expecting them to be perfect. I'll just lower my expectations."

Hardships are things like you going through the difficulties of child-rearing together. Losing your parents and grieving together. Maybe one of you loses a job and you struggle together. Cheating is not a hardship you go through together. Calling it an imperfection is extreme minimizing. Now, cheating is a hardship, but it is not something you go through together. It is something that your spouse did to you. It breaks the "together" in the hardship agreement. My expectations are not too high. I expect hardship and imperfections. It would be weird to not have those. My standards are that you don't visit hardship and abuse upon me. That's not normal married shit. That's not what the vows are talking about. It is not putting marriage on a pedestal to expect bare minimum stuff like don't do abusive things to one another. Maybe it helps to R if you can put cheating into the "hardship and imperfections" category, but I don't know how you do that.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 9:09 PM, October 23rd (Friday)]

Let's say she cleans the house pretty well, but takes a shit on the middle of the floor, smears it on the walls and leaves it there. Imperfection or did she fuck the whole thing up and ruin our contract? Do I say "well, you can't expect her to be perfect. The problem that housecleaners face is me expecting them to be perfect. I'll just lower my expectations."

Just sliced through the equivocations like a hot knife thru butter. Excellent work.

DD, that’s a great way to explain it!

It breaks the "together" in the hardship agreement.

And that’s just it. That’s part of the loss of the innocence. The loss of somebody having your back. Being there for you through thick and thin, in sickness and health. I feel like my WH was there for me in many ways, but I know now he was sharing things with others, sharing my secrets and struggles with others, and also complaining about me behind my back. So that illusion is shattered. I don’t think I’m wrong to expect that somebody not do that. It’s not me being unreasonable or expecting too much.

This thread started really great, and has now taken a turn. Back to the original intent of the thread, I struggle with how to get some sort of specialness or innocence back. I’m not ready to say well that doesn’t matter anyway. It does matter to me.

I remember that feeling, landclark. I wish I had any advice on that.

I loved what Want2BHappyAgain said on page 1.

Life is FULL of things that we can never get back...our childhood...virginity...adult teeth to name a few. But it doesn't mean we can't strive to be better from what we have learned from being young...innocent...and toothful . Can you imagine how it would have felt if...when you turned 18...you kept lamenting about losing your childhood because you were now an adult??? You would have missed out on so much FUN being an adult!!!

PLEASE don't lose out on what you are experiencing NOW because of something that is gone. There is so much MORE to experience Dear Lady...just like moving from childhood to adulthood

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 10:42 PM, October 23rd (Friday)]

For me, this was more like losing my "never been raped" status than losing my childhood teeth. We all have different perspectives.

I don't think the innocence will ever come back. I also feel there is a great loss of specialness. I am almost 3 yrs out and am having great difficulty with the knowledge that my wife couldn't remain faithful. We had made it 31 yrs without infidelity. Its still hard to comprehend that it happened. Her faithfulness was one of the most special things to me and now it's gone. Infidelity sucks!

Personally, innocence was when I wasn t sent into immediate spiral down, into flight/fight/freeze, simply because my husband was late or, decided last second, to change his plan or, his attitude even.

Innocence = Peace.

I didn t live within the landmine-rittled shitscape of a brain, that I am left to navigate now, for things that should not matter so damn much.

Sexual infidelity, is a cruelty like no other. It, not only shatters understood things about each other, it levels the betrayed, in ways few other experiences do, all at the same time.

Innocence = Trust

... and, trust, is a foundational necessity.

I agree, I was not a fool nor, nieve.

I have been honest, and he was stupid to fool around, while using my trust, to do so.

I didn t live within the landmine-rittled shitscape of a brain, that I am left to navigate now, for things that should not matter so damn much.

And we are on our own in this shitscape, we can’t trust our number one ally, they threw us into it.

I struggle with how to get some sort of specialness or innocence back.

I do think trying new things can be helpful here. My WH and I got a National Park Passport and started trying to visit as many National Parks (including things like National Historic Parks not just the big ones) as possible. Which was great until COVID shut them all down!

We also started taking ballroom dancing lessons and while we had thought we would enjoy this new hobby it turned out to be way more fun than either of us anticipated. And we were able to continue this with COVID first via virtual classes and then masked/gloved lessons when the studio opened up again.

I don't think know if this will necessarily help with the innocence but I think it does help with the specialness. If nothing else it has been a lot of fun and a good bonding experience

One thing that may help everyone in this thread struggling with this feeling of lost innocence and specialness is to read a bit about what is called liminality and also the hero’s journey.

Right now most of us on SI are the middle of perhaps the most difficult experience of liminality we will have in our lifetimes. Each of us is also on a hero’s journey.

The hero’s journey was outlined as a pattern for a reason by Joseph Campbell because it comports with the “narrative” of life and repeats over and over.

The good news is you come through liminality and you come out of the dark place of the hero’s journey. Yes, you really do! And as a result you are transformed into someone with special knowledge and wisdom to share.

Keep moving forward.