SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Can’t PM you. You need 50 valid posts to pm…

(Just a suggestion: even if you carry on adding your updates to the original post, then also make them new postings…)

Look – there are posters that contribute HEAVILY on this site that offer “advice” that I wouldn’t even feed to my dogs. There are some that think R is never possible, that you instantly need to DNA your kids, any reconciliation automatically makes you a Plan Alphabet-something, that your WW needs to be shamed and made to suffer, that her actions are controlled by biology and are therefore unavoidable, you should file NOW, kick her out… whatever. Their voices will be loud.

But… you can ignore them.

A good idea is to look at the recent posts by someone that catches you eye and see if you notice a pattern. Are they newly out of infidelity? Still dealing with it? Rational? Consistent?

What I can warn you about here and now is this:

You are dealing with a tough situation and NOBODY to-date – including posters that are in or have tried an open marriage – is supporting that you rug-sweep this issue or make reluctant concessions on your core-values. There is nothing easy about what you are dealing with and my questions were posted to make you think that through: NO easy answers. NO easy way forward.

I also think you need to know that the consensus here on SI is that there are two paths out of infidelity. One leads to divorce, the other to reconciliation. There is no “learn to live with it” path we generally accept here. Fortunately IMHO both the R and D path run quite parallel for the first part of the journey. The following steps I’m suggesting would be the same irrespective of what you want.

Then there is what you want…

If what you want is monogamy, then it can only be gotten if both comply. Therefore R is dependent on your WW participation.

What if she doesn’t play along? That only leaves you with two options: accept a single-sided open marriage and try to live with it (which I don’t think is doable) or divorce. D might not be what you WANT – not any more than you WANT that frostbitten foot amputated. But sometimes we do what we need rather than what we want.

I think that the key to your recovery is to force the issue.

There are few absolutes with human behavior but based on experience I put the odds of the affair being over (as in your wife not being in contact or seeing OM) at less than 1/20. She might wait a week or a few days to see if you change your mind, but once she realizes that the most likely consequences of a meet-up are a sulky husband and another talk about the “open marriage thingy” then she will meet up with him. Therefore, my questions on that issue.

I can also tell you that the odds of his wife knowing are less than 1/10. Or rather, the odds of this being with his wife’s consent (as in a real open marriage) is 1/100.

I can also tell you that once his wife knows then in nearly all instances the OM response is to dump the OW (your wife) and focus on the marriage. Like in 19/20.

With that in mind it falls on you to decide: Are you willing to wait and see if the affair is over and your wife cuts off contact with OM to respect your request for a monogamous marriage (odds being 19/20 that she will contact him eventually…)?

Or... do you want to force the issue and then deal with the consequences?

Let OMW know

(Hey, My name is Anx. Your husband says he is in an open marriage and is seeing my wife for sex. I just wanted to confirm that you are OK with this.)

Worst case scenario she’s fine with it. You are basically in the same situation you are in now. Odds of that are IMHO less than 1/80.

More realistic: She didn’t have a clue. OM comes home to find his stuff on the pavement and has to go to afterburner to save his marriage. Including the denials and the “she was only a piece of ass to me”. Interestingly that sentence seldom soothes betrayed wives, but certainly deflates the other woman (your wife). All of a sudden, the White Knight has brown spots in his armor. The odds of this happening: 19/20.

Granted, the normal response of the WW is to rage and threaten and tell you she was willing to end it but this last thing you did makes her doubt if she can stay married. But that lasts 2-3 days max. We can guide you on that. Once she calms then in 9/10 instances you have the situation where you can start reconciliation. At least to the point where you two can evaluate if it’s possible.

So basically, your decision is IMHO to wait with a 1/20 chance to work, or to act with a chance of 17/20 chance of success.

Do yourself a favor: Without warning or telling your wife, find the OM wife and share what you know.

I'm tired of the attacks on my wife and myself

Anxious, it's hard to hear what is the truth. The comments are not "attacks" but painful realizations that you are probably not ready to hear yet. We know you love her, we know you think she's remorseful. But her ACTIONS and her "conditions" on staying married to you are a form of emotional abuse. ABUSE. Many here recognize it because we've been through it ourselves. And it is a very tough pill to swallow.

When you are ready to face what is in front of you we are always here to help you get through it. Until then, I wish you the best of luck with what you decide to do. But please, don't leave thinking this group is a bunch of trolls "out to get" you. They've been there. They get it. And it sucks to be in a position you never thought you'd be in.

[This message edited by newlife03 at 10:35 AM, October 29th (Thursday)]

Bigger has some great advice and I hope you will absorb it.

I am one of those who has a high skepticism meter for reconciliation -- not in all cases, but certainly in LTA's and serial cheater situations.

And definitely when a WS is trying to bully a faithful spouse into a so-called "open marriage" (which is really just a one-sided arrangement to allow her to cheat). And let's be honest about what is going on here: She can couch this in reasonable sounding language and platitudes, but this is ABUSE and it is sick and it is bullying.

The damage she's doing here is so momentous you haven't really even begun to absorb it yet. You will and once it all sinks in, it will probably horrify you.

One instance of infidelity of "average" length (usually 3-4 months) is a mountain to climb. Multiple, serial cheating, long-term affairs are magnitudes of order above this.

If she can't or won't grapple with that reality and very soon, then I'm sorry but no, I can't pretend that a reconciliation attempt is going to succeed here.

I like to quote Proverbs 30:20 sometimes and I'll aadmit it's not applicable to every case. But it fits here: "This is the way of an adulterous woman: She consumes a man, wipes her mouth and says 'I have done nothing wrong.'"

Now you can easily reverse the genders of most Proverbs and the advice is the same. I do think this describes what you've told us about your wife. She doesn't REALLY see anything wrong here and now wants to "negotiate" with you on how she can keep doing what feels good to her in the moment, regardless of your pain or the danger to you and your family.

I feel I'd be dishonest and inauthentic if I tried to pretend this is a good situation and she's a great candidate for reconciliation.

That said, I do believe reconciliation can be achieved. I truly do. I'm rooting for all those who are attempting it and for those who believe they've at least found some modicum of it. At the same time, unfortunately as has been noted by others in this thread, the odds are stacked against it. It's a brave and courageous thing to go for, and it is a testament to the power of love. But we'd be whistling past the graveyard to pretend the odds are great.

They are much better odds when you're dealing with a wayward spouse who has figured out how to deal with their self-imposed cranial rectal syndrome. Waiting around patiently for a wayward to do this over months and months is essentially doing the pick me dance, and ill advised.

They either get it together lickety split, or you move to get yourself away from their crazymaking and toxic behavior. That's my take.

Now I'm also one of those who recommends at least talking to a lawyer and truly understanding the divorce process. I'm almost 50 years old and have been completely naive about what divorce entails. I never thought I'd be here, so I never bothered to learn about it. Why would I? It would be like reading the fine print in all those warranty agreements. It's a black box to me. So talking to an attorney at least has allowed me to understand the process and what a reasonable settlement looks like.

I'm also one who often recommends that after seeing an attorney you strongly consider filing for divorce -- or at the very least enforcing a therapeutic separation between 30-90 days. I don't do this because I'm rooting for divorce. I suggest it because it's one of the tools in your toolbox that, if deployed early, can radically change the equation and put you back in control of your life. It shocks wayward spouses to their core much of the time. I didn't do it in my own case, and certainly wish I had. I did a number of "shock and awe" things that did bring the affair to a screeching halt and surfaced what I believe to be most of the truth. But I also found myself in limbo with a WW who didn't fully grasp the depth of what she'd done and then turned around and deployed on me the usual litany of additionally damaging behaviors, the terms for which I only learned later: trickle truth, pushing to rugsweep, cajoling me, continuing to gaslight, blameshifting, minimizing, rationalizing and DARVO.

Filing for D in my opinion, or at the very least getting real physical separation in place, gives a betrayed spouse some peace and space so they can begin to think more clearly. It also brings home immediately to the wayward spouse what they have truly done and what they are about to lose. If it results in the wayward plowing ahead with their transgressions, then it simply throws a spotlight on how unsafe a partner they were in the first place.

I can for sure tell what NOT filing for divorce or separating in the early days has done for me (and of course this is only my own personal case, but I feel it probably resonates with many): It has led me finally four years later to begin moving for divorce.

I think oddly and ironically filing for D or a separation can actually save the marriage, while dithering and getting caught in nice-guy feedback loops and hellish limbo all but ensures divorce will come regardless.

So that's why I recommend filing quickly or moving for a separation.

Think about it.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:07 PM, October 29th (Thursday)]

Anxious: I won’t cast a shadow on those that chose to live a polyamorous life, an open marriage or are into swinging or whatever. As has been stated numerous times here on this thread: If agreed on then fine. Maybe it’s all an emotional maturity that I haven’t attained yet. But… The general rule is that infidelity is caused by insecurities and a need for validation.

I have a feeling that when push comes to shove your wife isn’t polyamorous but insecure and that her “cure” is not an open marriage or more husbands but to get to the bottom of why she seeks this form of validation. I think a part of any decision process you two might go through would be IC for her where her emotional maturity could be confirmed – or her insecurities dealt with.

----

Researching divorce isn’t giving up. You can view it with the same logic as if you learn CPS or the Heimlich move. It’s not because you intend to find someone in need, but rather so you know how to respond if the need arises.

The realization that her infidelities and the next steps MIGHT end your marriage is IMHO a KEY to recovery. Think of it this way: imagine you were diagnosed with some disease and your doctor prescribed one big yellow pill per day. You would probably comply, but not be too fazed if you forget, or take it in the afternoon rather than morning, or omit the pill for a couple of days between refilling the prescription. Your actions would be totally different if your doctor told you to take the pill every 24 hours or DIE. It’s the same with her infidelities: If she doesn’t end it then it CAN and probably WILL lead to divorce. Realizing the seriousness makes you better comply with the requirements to save the marriage. Or end it if they cant be met…

Knowing what that looks like is not the same as divorcing, but it eases the fear and the threat AS WELL as outlines the stake of what you two are dealing with. If you tell your wife that you will be married no matter what then she has no incentive to change. Knowing what you are dealing with and knowing your true options is only empowering.

What I differ on with many posters is that I see divorce as a long process. Filing is just one step on that process. Don’t see the need to spend money on a retainer and the filing fees at Day 1, but rather see it as a step in the process out of infidelity if R is not offered.

Wow. How rude. Just because you don't like the advice,or aren't ready to face the truth,doesn't mean the people giving it are trolls.

This is actually a heavily moderated site. Trolls are weeded out very quickly.

Good luck with your cheating wife. Hopefully you can swallow the shit sandwich she's feeding you.

Maybe some compassion?

Few of us are in a good place when we come here first.

I'm pretty sure I gave you some good advice about open relationships.

I don't know you. I don't know your wife. But I sure know your situation- I've seen it hundreds of times. It doesn't make her a bad person, it makes her "normal" for being still in the foggy headspace and not wanting to give it up. The value judgment of that is neither here nor there.

Ask yourself honestly- do you really think you can rebuild trust and go on with your marriage when she's effectively continuing the same actions she was before, while she was lying to you and breaking her vows to get what she wanted? What actions could she be taking that rebuild that trust? She has shown herself willing to lie- is the only reason she's not lying to you that she has what she wants? How does that show you that she won't lie again in the future when she wants something?

The reason that open relationships don't work with the cheating third party still involved is because they've already shown themselves willing to actively harm the marriage. If they were an ethical person, they would have asked your wife to talk to you about an open relationship BEFORE crossing that line. How can you trust them to treat you and your relationship with your wife ethically in the future? How will they rebuild trust?

I would discard what you read about people saying that open relationships don't work the majority of the time, because by that metric, MOST relationships don't work the majority of the time. Period. It's very easy to pick and choose a dataset to reflect whatever outcome you want it to reflect. Also, we could get off topic into a lovely theoretical discussion of what "works" means and if it really is a good metric to try and assume that the best end goal is for relationships to last forever, when maybe that's not the case. But really, that's not the issue here.

If you don't genuinely want an open marriage for yourself, this is unlikely to work long term even if she gives up her paramour and you build an open marriage from scratch.

Think about it like this- relationship style is one of the building blocks in a relationship. Open or Closed is not a small decision- it's a very large one with ramifications that run throughout pretty much every other category. Are you willing to renegotiate how you manage finances? What portions of your income can you spend on other partners? How will you manage time like the holidays when you have other partners? Will you be out, and if so to who- friends? Family? Work? It is so much more than whether or not your wife continues to see this particular person- it will reverberate all through your relationship in ways you haven't even thought of.

This is why leaping into a big change is a terrible idea, especially with a new person waiting in the wings. No one has done any of the work on themselves or any of the planning, or even the mourning of the loss of the previous relationship because no matter what you do, that's gone forever, even if you build a better one from the ashes. Rushing a decision like this will make it exponentially more likely to fail.

If you are seriously considering an open marriage, I feel very confident saying your only path to success is her being willing to end the affair with her paramour and the two of you starting from scratch figuring out how you want to build a new relationship.

What about the new people who are reading his words? Maybe they will start to rethink the advice they've been given here. Maybe the people, who have been here for a few months,who posted on his thread, will reconsider the advice they were giving?

This man isn't ready to hear anything that doesn't fit his narrative. Maybe he will be back,when he realizes the members here were right.

In the meantime, the people who are here deserve to know they have given good advice,and are getting good advice,and we are not trolls.

That is my perspective. I am showing compassion. Clearly something you hadn't considered before you corrected me.

But thank you for correcting me.

[This message edited by HellFire at 12:16 PM, October 29th (Thursday)]

One additional observation if you're still reading: please make an effort to keep the following separate from each other and don't conflate:

-Your love for her

-Divorce vs. reconciliation

-Forgiveness

Too often these three things get jumbled together. I'm not saying it's easy. But try to keep them separate.

Your love for her is one thing. If you're like many of us, you in fact love your wife and you're shocked to discover there's another person lurking around that differs starkly from the idealized version you thought you had. I expressed this at one point as "I miss the wife I thought I had."

It's a person you don't recognize, but a person who has been there all this time all the same. So in one sense, you've loved an illusion, but in another very real sense it is impossible for you to turn this love off.

Nevertheless, in other abusive situations, therapists would advise the abused spouse to not allow this to color their decision about staying with an abusive spouse. Your own love can be used against you, thus the phenomenon of gaslighting. Along with other abusive behaviors such as blameshifting, cajoling you into rugsweeping, or bullying you into accepting a morally transgressive dynamic that violates your core principles and values.

Second forgiveness. Forgiveness is important, but it is for you and your health first and foremost, to avoid living a life filled with bitterness and resentment.

Forgiveness is a process, not an epiphany, and I believe it can be a long road in these situations. Forced happy-clappy forgiveness one unfortunately sees (say in evangelical circles) does more harm than good and usually backfires.

Forgiveness for someone who is continuing to display unloving actions and behaviors that don't merit forgiveness leads to a very real outcome called "the doormat effect" (and this has been documented by research) -- in which the aggressive and abusive behaviors from a wayward spouse actually increase, rather than decrease.

Lastly, the decision to stay or go. Your love for her is part of this decision obviously, but you cannot allow it to bias you in favor of staying with someone who is an unsafe partner for you. At the same time, far too often, people confuse forgiving with needing to stay. You can forgive and stay (reconcile) or you can forgive and divorce. These paths are not mutually exclusive.

Just a little more food for thought as you continue to grapple with this situation.

Great posts , id like to add that your feelings will certainly go up and down , you should not try to answer any big questions right now . Take care of yourself , do alot of reading , exercise , see a therapist . Eat well , pray , hang out with people and pets who love you . See a therapist . See a lawyer if you are a pre planner.

After a few weeks you should be in a better position to negotiate for what you want . Maybe she will meet you halfway if not you can come back and renegotiate terms as many times as you need .

Ultimately you either have a situation that can work or you dont and noone is pretending they know for sure whats the right answer for you . Time will tell . Good luck

Wow. How rude. Just because you don't like the advice,or aren't ready to face the truth,doesn't mean the people giving it are trolls.

I can't help but feel maybe OP is a troll or a wayward speaking through the guise of a betrayed.

OP, if you aren't, sorry you feel the way you do. Best of luck.

Some people are just not ready to here the truth guys, And I am afraid some of them will neve be. I have lurked here for a while and I can easily say that, The people posting her offer sound advice based on their own personal experience.

There are good people on this site who have given you their time and attention. People who have had their own shit sandwiches to eat. For you to call the posters here "trolls" is self-serving and counter-productive and well, flat out rude. I suggest this entire thread be deleted and the rest of us should move on and focus on people who are genuinely looking for relationship advice. I'm out.