SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

same Dee, same.

I explained my initial reaction in this thread and in 36's other thread.

I'll try again. I did not intend to shut down any discussion of rape. Rereading my first response I see that I did write "Just because something can be explored doesn't mean it should be. I can't see anything productive or helpful coming from this discussion."

My impression of 36yearsgone, over the past few months, has been that he (you, if you are reading this post, 36) has tended to post topics that seem to be conversation starters, topics that he has interest in without attaching any personal history or strong feeling. So when I read the initial post and saw someone else react the same way I felt in that moment, I answered from that place. As a CSA survivor, all I saw was someone curious and poking around for opinions about something that was very real and personal to me. Once I understood, from follow up posts, that this was a very real and personal topic to 36, my reaction changed completely.

Sorry... hit enter too soon.

The only other thing I'm going to say here is that it's... interesting to me to see people who were not triggered by the original post seem to invalidate the feelings of those of us who were. As I said in a previous post, every one of us who has experienced rape or CSA or infidelity is at a different place in our healing or non healing, and will react to the same thing in different ways. I don't presume to think that every person should feel and/or react the same way I do. And reading some of the responses, I feel very much like I'm being told my feelings aren't correct, that I'm overreacting or responding the wrong way. That doesn't feel very good.

[This message edited by HFSSC at 6:07 PM, November 13th (Friday)]

Again, how on earth anyone could derive a " suck it up butter cup" message from what I wrote is beyond me. So, if you responded to me, HFCC, I have no clue why.

This is why:

I saw nothing provocative in the original post. Why it pissed some off is beyond me. It merely asserted that both were traumatic. Others writing on this subject have said the same. Willard Harley has, for sure.

It was not a which is worse contest or anything that should offend someone, IMO. I was not offended by the observation. I have been through both.

You saw nothing provocative. Why it pissed some people off is beyond you. You were not offended by the observation. Thus the implication is that if anyone is offended or pissed off, they must be wrong. That's how it came across to me and what I was replying to.

I'm not sure how to explain it any better. I understand that many people who have been through both situations see the similarities and were not bothered by the initial question. I understand how other people can have different feelings and reactions to things that don't bother me at all. I haven't suggested that anyone who isn't offended or pissed off must be lying or deluding themselves. (NOT THAT ANYONE HAS IMPLIED THAT, OKAY????? It's the only comparison I could come up with.) It would just be nice if all the people on both sides could respect the other side's right to feel how they feel.

Basically, everyone is triggered. Some are triggered by the thread, some are triggered by people being triggered by the thread, and then people are triggered by people not being triggered by the thread.

I have no idea what to do to make that better. I can't apologize for my trigger anymore than you can. We all have valid feelings.

I am one hundred percent on your side 36 and i just have an observation about triggers

I used to make jokes about my abusive relationship but when anyone else initiated a similar joke i would seethe and then lash out at them .

Jokes i made were part of my narrative and the other jokes i felt were belittling my narrative regardless of how affectionately other people meant it ( i knew a bunch of socially awkward people )

I think your thread will give alot of people confidence and clarity and your bravery speaks for itself; the people whose responses jarred you werent coming from a bad place . Noone is indifferent to anyones pain . They were just in a different conversation, one that you can choose to either engage or not engage with .

Yikes! This conversation can't go anywhere good and I know that just from reading the first post!

I have to preface this with the fact that I've only been on one side of the equation in this topic. Not sure what CSA means, though I can divine what the SA part of it is.

Experts say that rape is an act of violence. It is not about sex.

Infidelity, may be mostly about the sex, but it is still an act of violence. It is the violent destruction of a relationship. It is the violent disregard of your partners feelings and emotions.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I disagree that infidelity is a violent disregard of an SO's feelings and emotions in most cases. I've come to discern its more a "neglectful" disregard.

Where is the violence in infidelity, you ask? Ask anyone who has been cheated on if they felt like they had been physically beaten by the discovery of their spouses betrayal.

Not trying to be contrarian, but feeling and physical act are two separate things.

Rape is a selfish act. So is infidelity.

I don't disagree with this , context IMO separates them though.

Rape is not about love. Neither is infidelity. Love would prevent a rape, Love should prevent infidelity.

Rape is about power and control, from what I've read. Which could be wrong as I have no personal experience with it.

Infidelity, is often about the lack of Love, its understanding, for one's self, SO, etc.

I feel as if these are on different planes. I'd rather be cheated on then endure rape. To me rape is the great of two evils. But see my preface.

Your thoughts?

You should have known that you would get immediate negative feedback with this topic.

Seems to vary from person to person. A few of the posters, myself included, that have experienced both felt the infidelity was more traumatic.

I have done some reading on it. One author points out that infidelity is inflicted by a trusted person. Rape can be, but not always.

Plus, infidelity vitiates fond memories with the cheater, destroying them, essentially. When one looks at family photos etc., one wonders if the cheater was feigning enjoyment, longing to be elsewhere with the AP.

Infidelity can destroy confidence in one's attractiveness and sexual performance. Rape may not.

Infidelity destroys trust and one's ability to be intimate sometimes. Sexual assault did for me, too. So, they were similar for me.

With rape, hopefully, one gets support. Everyone understands the trauma and is sympathetic, at least they should be.

With infidelity, many people seemed less sympathetic, questioning why I was not over it in a week or two. Not so with the sexual assaults.

No, his original post was fine, IMO. IT was the rude, insulting responses that were out of line. I think the folks who triggered just assumed their perspective on rape being more traumatic was universally accepted and that he had no standing to explore the commonalities.

Of course, once he and some of us apprised them of the fact that we, like the OP, had standing to comment as we had every bit as much experience as they did, they backtracked and reverted to attacking his way of writing. This was grasping at straws, as they realized the high ground they thought they had as dual victims had been pulled out from under them.

One reverted, absurdly, to calling the inquiry pseudo intellectual, where there had never been any tone of pretentiousness. Another, quite astonishingly, misquoted the original post, taking liberties with it and trying to make it sound much more callous. Amazing since the orig post was easily accessible and the fake quote debunked

his original post was fine, IMO. IT was the rude, insulting responses that were out of line.

Push buttons, get rude responses.

Choose your phrasing more carefully, avoid rude responses.

To be clear, are you suggesting that those hurt by rape should check themselves when a poster makes a casual rape comparison, seemingly for conversational purposes? Because we don't want to tell an original poster to be more sensitive and/or forthcoming? Because THAT is offensive to you? Are you insinuating that rape victims need to get tough? Because original posters' feelings are more important? If not, I don't understand your point. What do you want from the people originally offended by 36Yearsgone's original post, Stinger?

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 11:16 AM, November 14th (Saturday)]

Perhaps a reading comprehension course and attendance at a Dale Carnagie seminar. That post was not casual or insensitive. It is an oft discussed topic.

And, there is not anything wrong, IMO, exploring the commonalities.

With rape, hopefully, one gets support. Everyone understands the trauma and is sympathetic, at least they should be.

With infidelity, many people seemed less sympathetic, questioning why I was not over it in a week or two. Not so with the sexual assaults.

I want to say I learned a lot from this thread. Since I don't have experience with rape and it is such a difficult subject, I feel it would be improper for me to speculate. If I did not have firsthand experience with infidelity, I would feel the same way. So I have avoided commenting for that reason.

I agree with you about the victim blaming and shaming. We understand that the illusion of control provides outsiders a false sense of comfort so they make these spot judgments. The unfortunate reality that we all know too well is even the "poster wife" or "poster husband" is not safe. Because the reality is quite terrifying, outsiders must believe that these horrific things only happen to people who "deserve it". Yes, humans can be very shitty.

But the one thing I believe that is unique to rape and/or sexual assault is complete invalidation of experience. I guess what I am trying to say is I have never heard someone disregard a BS's claim(s) of being cheated on or accuse him/her of lying. Unfortunately, I have heard that regarding sexual assault and/or rape. In fact, this phenomenon is so common with rape and/or sexual assault that it sparked a social movement a few years back.

That is because there is criminal liability for the accused and, there have been numerous instances of false accusations and mistaken identity. The Innocence Project has had hundreds of exonerations through DNA.

I learned a lot as I said. The most surprising thing, at least to me, is many people weighed in and said that infidelity was in fact worse. Being that I never experienced rape, I only projected it being either a much more difficult life experience to navigate or at least a similarly tough experience to work through. And it got me thinking, why is that? What about my own personal experiences and biases would lead me to assume that?

I believe it results from the fact I came from a divorced household. So from my formative experience, I saw marriage, and relationships, as a very precarious arrangement. Based on my own experiences, understanding that most relationships fold, and roughly 50% of marriages end in divorce, I swore I would never get married. Now I am not cynical about it or mistrusting, it was just a reality that I always saw is a probable outcome.

So when I was cheated on, I was crushed. I went through many of the same experiences of others on this site and it took quite awhile to recover from. But the difference for me, based on my background, is I never had the my conscious shocked or caused my outlook on life to be completely questioned. It was really a more of a prophecy fulfilled than a "2+2 now equals 5" situation on Dday.

The following is projection: with rape or sexual assault, I always a 2+2=5 situation to always be the case. The trauma would rise to a level of earth-shattering questioning of my entire experience or outlook on people. The fabric of spacetime would almost seem to unravel. My reasoning would be that while, I never expected to get cheated on, it was always a very real possibility. However, I projected that a SA or rape victim would not have that same mindset in regards to being raped or SAed.

But after reading this thread, I can see now how infidelity would not only result in severe trauma and all the other issues we discuss and I experienced, but life-altering consequences, that I projected onto rape and SA victims, are very likely too. The only thing separates why that did not happen to me was possibly due to my own life experiences.

I understand your point about high profile cases or criminal liability, but I’m talking about cases that aren’t even reported to authorities. The instances where family members or close confidants are skeptical or flat-out discredit the victim’s claims.

Yes, well, with that in mind, King, many folks are aware that rape is a possibility, too, much like your awareness of the ephemeral nature of marriage.

In my case, since I was 11 at the time, I had no awareness of either.

I made this distinction in Thumos' thread on abuse. Now, this is not provable or scientific. But, Willard Harley, that Marriagebuilders guy, claims he interviewed lots of betrayed spouses that had also been raped. He claims that 100% off them took the position that infidelity was worse for them. I doubt that, as just on this thread alone, we have betrayed people who claim the opposite.

But, there are some factors unique to infidelity betrayal that may make recovery more difficult.

First, as several have mentioned, in many rape situations, ther ed is no established trust that is broken.

Second, find family memories are not vitiated, unless of course the rapist was a friend or relative or something like that.

Third, again as mentioned, there sees to be more widespread acceptance that rape is a major trauma, even by those who have not experienced it. Infidelity is not looked at the same way. Folks do not understand the extent of the trauma. They expect more rapid recovery.

Heck, you can even have a movie or book where the protagonist is a cheater, like Bridges of Madison County. Try having a rapist as a protagonist. Does not work because folks understand that rape is super traumatic. Many do not with infidelity.

If family friends or family discredit, that is appalling. In my case, told my mom. It was ignored. So, I got help in my 40's. Nice.

And the beat goes on.

Only read the OP, the first and the last page of this thread.

They both create deeply painful, lasting trauma, causing PTSD, disassociation, nightmares, suicides, homicide, fear of trust of others, etc. I'm not suggestion one is equal to the other. I suppose one would have to experience both to be qualified to compare.

I've never been raped but in the moment, hours, days, months, YEARS after discovering a LTA by my WH I would say emotionally it may be equal - the disbelief, the total mind fuck. The distrust of every one in your life.

I've lost a 14 yr old child - and that did not leave the lasting emotional damage that finding out someone you thought had your back for 25 years so easily fell for a lousy side fuck (or so he says...).

Man, these posfs...

First. How about we don't invalidate other's experiences?

Second. We all come from different experiences and backgrounds. How about ..for some, rape is worse, for others, infidelity is worse, and that is ok. We are all trying to heal.

Third. I was abused, no rape. I am really infuriated by a few comments talking about rape by a stranger. Some people are raped by a stranger. Others are raped by some random guy on a date. Some of us ARE in fact violated by people we trust 190%. By people we thought would protect us.

For me, the abuse I dealt with as a child was the worst thing I have experienced. I would not wish it on my worst enemy. I don't feel the same way about the cheating and betrayal.

I was a child. I cpuld so nothing. This as put on me. With my wx, i proceeded with the relafionship even though there were some red flags. I chose the relationship. Of o had listened tp my gut i wouldn't be on this sotuation.

To me. Yes. There are similarities. But O think our reactions are based on a beer of factors. Including our relationships with our abusers, our support systems, and other factors.

As for how we view rape and cheating. People are often accused of lying about rape. We are not accused of lying about. Cheating. We are asked how we are tp now for cheating. Same with rape. Cheating is normalized. Rape used to be, less so now. People are expected to get over cheating. Same with rape.

It is all awful

Just so I fully understand you, Stinger, the only acceptable response in this thread is one that matches yours. Any other response is, let me see, absurd, grasping at straws, based on wrong assumptions, lacking in reading comprehension, looking to be offended, having a chip on the shoulder.

We who expressed a different opinion either don't know or lied about how we feel because we had to allege that we felt the OP was insensitive and/or lacked sufficient context.

Do I have this all right? That was just from the last 2 or 3 pages.

My feelings are NOT invalid simply because they are different from yours. I've been raped. I was abused repeatedly as a child. I have been cheated on by 2 husbands. And I don't dare presume to think that everyone should react the same way that I do. I'm not stupid or self centered enough to think that what triggers me should trigger you or anyone else.

Multiple people have apologized for misunderstanding the intent of the OP. But that does not mean that our reactions or feelings weren't as reasonable as yours.