SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

She wants you to believe the problem isn’t what she does, it’s your reaction to it.

This is so true. I've witnessed this in my own STBXWW. I'm starting to wonder if TD's WGF and my STBXWW are related .

I know you are going forward with S, and it's probably the right move.

“You asked me to be honest, and I’ve been honest and being honest has triggered you. I would’ve been better off not telling you”

This is literally the whole point. This is just such a great encapsulation of wayward thing. I think it's worth parsing.

"I've been honest and being honest has triggered (or otherwise hurt) you."

If the truth hurts, it hurts. Honesty is more important than feelings. Not the other way round. Do not lie to keep the peace. Do not lie to feel good. Do not rugsweep or minimize. Face the real issues, and if they are too damaging to overcome, then the right answer IS to leave. Consider that her honest feelings and desires aren't good for you and move on if it's appropriate. You can't make the right decisions without honesty and transparency.

"I would’ve been better off not telling you”

This is the crux of wayward thinking! Me me me me me. The truth be damned. Other people having agency be damned.

A successful deception causes it's own harm. The wayward has to get it through their thick lying skull that successful deception is always, without exception, more harmful than a painful truth.

This is the crux of wayward thinking! Me me me me me. The truth be damned. Other people having agency be damned.

This is very wayard thinking that originates in FOO usually. Hard to undo that FOO stuff unless you have 100% WS determination to change.

It goes something like this. 'A self-focused parent who may have been alcoholic/narc/absent/abusive/ill/unstable has a family that "decides" (without discussion) that this parent's feelings are important and child's are not. Child learns that "I am responsible for parent's feelings and must protect them at all cost." Ahhhh. Peace in the home except for the poor, unfortunate, unhealthy, angry, ill, selfish, or out of it parent. They are the blameless victim. Poor them. Thus the child unwittingly becomes a party to "Lies are helpful if they keep the peace and parent is happy. My drowning in lies and inauthenticity? It's fine."'

So toxic.

So common.

So ingrained.

But the wayward--if they can be saved from their thinking at all--MUST confront this ugly truth about their upbringing and acknowledge that A. lies are toxic, not hurt feelings or unhappy situations and B. their family was toxic for inadvertently or intentionally reinforcing the opposite message.

How do you convince waywards that unhappiness is not the enemy, dishonesty is? My WH STILL struggles at times--and he honestly 100% gets it. But the knee jerk reaction and flinching still linger. He SO wants to value peace over conflict or unpleasantness.

Fucking FOO.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 1:41 PM, April 13th (Tuesday)]

I am on team Esther is not for me.

I learned the following in a support group I joined to be a better wife

eye roll

However, I find I have more peace if I simply accept or reject what my husband is offering. Open marriage...no thanks. Lying and risking my sexual, emotional, and spiritual health....ummm 🤔 no.

Herpes.

What he is selling I don't want. I no longer try to convince a grown man what to carry in his relationship store. I am simply not a current customer..just a disgruntled former subscriber

As for Ester. "That doesn't work for me."

Oh an to be clear..I do not know that he has herpes. Only that I got a call that I was vicariously exposed to genital herpes through his contact with known ap who I was told passed it to someone who passed it to someone. Like a toxic life changing poison chain letter.

It's always fascinating to me how popular Esther Perel is among therapists. Why, it's almost as if they are morally bankrupt and looking for justification to continue to push flawed theories of mind and behavior. Could it be?

I would urge a different IC, preferably someone who specializes in betrayal trauma. This is a very particular specialty, and I doubt many betrayal trauma specialists will recommend Perel.

She says that I don’t have to accept that I’m responsible for the A, I just have to accept that WGF thinks I’m responsible for her A.

If you did this, you would eventually melt down from the contradiction. You'd have to spend years with her blame, knowing you were blameless or coming to believe someone else's actions -- that hurt you -- were your fault.

Substitute another heinous act for the A here, and it seems crazier yet: "I don't have to accept that I'm responsible for her robbing my house, I just have to accept that she thinks I'm responsible for her robbing my house."

Sounds like you've received lots of good advice and are on a good, if difficult path, but you shouldn't have to accept blame for someone else hurting you.

I've been there, too. The WW didn't feel seen (no matter that I'd taken us to MC trying to break through things), so I made her grab that guy's knob. Guess we have psychokinesis!

Don't live like that. Keep to your convictions.

[This message edited by Slanted at 11:32 PM, April 23rd (Friday)]

It's always fascinating to me how popular Esther Perel is among therapists. Why, it's almost as if they are morally bankrupt and looking for justification to continue to push flawed theories of mind and behavior. Could it be?

Many of them push for forced reconciliation (a.k.a rugsweeping) anyway, so why not love her when she makes light work of it for them? Effecting personal accountability and breaking through a client's barriers is, I imagine, hard work, while peddling E. Perel's hullaballoo diminishes that difficulty, while increasing "success rate" and profitability. "Go read and watch some Esther Perel. Here's you bill. Thank you. Next."

"Go read and watch some Esther Perel. Here's you bill. Thank you. Next."

My STBXWW arranged for our second marriage counselor. I told STBXWW that I want to speak to the MC before our first meeting so she understands what happened.

First thing MC said to me "Google Esther Perel and watch her ted talk."

I got a lot of that from the MC. "You should google this and watch this tedtalk, watch this YouTube video..."

No, how about you do what you are being paid to do and help us, you fucking moron!

[This message edited by DanielJK at 1:28 PM, April 24th (Saturday)]

I need to make a TED talk to be more compassionate towards murderers.

I mean yes we agree murder is wrong, but it has a long and rich history. Many people that murder say they feel so alive after!

I need to make a TED talk to be more compassionate towards murderers.

I mean yes we agree murder is wrong, but it has a long and rich history. Many people that murder say they feel so alive after!

I'd go so far as to say that it's a natural impulse. Yes, there's a victim, etc. But there are reasons that the murderer felt the need to kill someone and those reasons are pretty important.

You really could Esther up any act of cruelty.

Esther up

I am laughing so hard I am glad I don't have a mouth full of morning coffee or I would be wiping it off the walls.

You have heard the term "kingmakers"? Well I call the people places and things that cheaters surround themselves as "cheatermakers":

popular culture that glorifies cheaters/cheating (like why do we want to hear about about Tiger or the professional athlete married to the Kardashian) and not about what they did to their wives/partners/family

cheating supportive friends and family that cheated/cheats except in small socially sanctioned doses perhaps like if said cheater is your mother

I personally put porn in here because I think it is dehumanizing/objectifying/lowers empathy;

cheater movies/aka movies that glorify cheating

What I call cheater smack talk...things like talking bad about the be/bgfbf to other people or posting cheating supportive stuff online, outright lies etc

places and situations where what "happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" like weekends being booked because the reality of your partner being distressed about your cheating "just doesn't feel good"

None of this works for me in a relationship any more

Esther up

I am laughing so hard I am glad I don't have a mouth full of morning coffee or I would be wiping it off the walls.

I'm glad that amused you as much as it did me to write it, ha ha ha.

need to make a TED talk to be more compassionate towards murderers.

In fact defense attorneys do this all the time with murderers. Usually it’s a grab bag of FOO issues

As far as those in the thread saying Perel is essentially harmless, she ain’t. She’s a Sophist and she’s doing real harm.

My WW tried this “meaningless fling” gambit with me. Her precise words. She might have retrieved it from Perel because that was the only book she proffered on her own without prodding from me.

It’s as if Perel and defense attorneys are justifying the affair or crime.

People know right from wrong. Period.

It makes me sick how excuses are forced down the betrayed’s throat at a vulnerable time and we fall for it. I believed the first three months of my H’s affair I was to blame. I was a doormat and he used that against me.

But I finally wised up stopped allowing that mindset to occur.

As far as those in the thread saying Perel is essentially harmless, she ain’t. She’s a Sophist and she’s doing real harm.

Got to agree with Thumos here. I consider EP's thinking and pretty much endorsement of affairs as a key factor in my marriage ending. There was a brief window when it seemed like R was possible. But my WW could not reconcile herself to self-examination and taking responsibility for the pain she caused. Then she discovered EP, and she had her book of justifications to blame me. I was left with D or accepting the blame and rugsweeping.

I was a doormat and he used that against me.

The wonderful and concise book "Cheating in a Nutshell actually has a pretty good outline for a scientifically documented "doormat effect."

It seems research shows that some marital partners only grow more aggressive if you're too nice -- and they take conciliatory and amenable treatment offered by a betrayed spouse as a greenlight to further abuse the person they've already tormented.

What's the saying around here? You teach people how you want to be treated? Probably SI would do well to advise JFO betrayeds to go fairly hard 180 most of the time. Seems like better results would probably be achieved to get the betrayed out of infidelity period, R or D.

That was an eye opener for me, too, when I learned about it.

[This message edited by Thumos at 2:12 PM, May 16th (Sunday)]

Esther Perel herself would deny that she's an infidelity apologist. She in fact says, many times, that she believes infidelity is wrong, a bad thing to do.

However, a great deal of her work involves explaining the emotional logic of infidelity from the POV of a cheater. Esther is smart and has studied this extensively, and she is good at explaining this in terms laypeople can understand.

People tend to engage in confirmation bias, especially people who feel misunderstood. This is why cheaters (and shitty MC's who want to convince BS's to stay married to cheaters no matter the cost) like Perel. Perel makes them feel understood.

The fallacy is that explaining a thing is not the same as excusing it. It is possible for a BS to have understanding and even compassion for a cheater, but at the same time choose to not accept the trauma that the cheater inflicted, or to no longer remain married to the cheater.

However, a great deal of her work involves explaining the emotional logic of infidelity from the POV of a cheater. Esther is smart and has studied this extensively, and she is good at explaining this in terms laypeople can understand.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I think she has some decent points that you can absorb once you are further out and understand when to call bullshit.

Her biggest problem is that she believes the bullshit cheaters tell her. I'm not saying the cheaters don't believe their own bullshit. It's still bullshit.

If Perel could do everyone the favor of saying, "Well the cheaters engage in bullshit and mental gymnastics". She talks briefly about how cheaters will always say, "Well it's not really cheating because *bullshit*" Yet somehow she never quite gets to the other side that the "I kept cheating because it made me feel alive" is just as much bullshit as "it wasn't cheating because I always kept one foot on the floor".

Esther Perel herself would deny that she's an infidelity apologist. She in fact says, many times, that she believes infidelity is wrong, a bad thing to do.

I have seen this always as merely a pose, a gesture. The flick of a hand of a relativist.