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Gottman Couples Therapy - have you tried it?

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 ReadytoWorkonMe (original poster new member #79141) posted at 5:29 PM on Monday, July 19th, 2021

Hi,

My WH and I are going to do an intensive, 2-day (private) session with a Gottman therapist this week. Does anyone have any experience with therapists trained in the Gottman approach? Or have you done a "marathon" or intensive session with one? They have a great reputation for improving communication skills - which probably would have helped prevent this from ever having happened. I am really interested in knowing if they will also deal with digging into why he decided to stray, atonement, my issues with pulling back (after it took him years to stop his heavy flirtation and phone sex),....

Thanks for any and all insights into the Gottman approach.

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Oldwounds ( member #54486) posted at 5:39 PM on Monday, July 19th, 2021

Our MC wasn’t strictly Gottman but used a LOT of the tools.

We didn’t do any intense 2-day deals either, but we communicate in a completely different way now.

Some, I’ve heard some Gottman therapists excuse some WS behavior.

It turned out (he didn’t tell us until much later) that he was a betrayed spouse as well, so he made sure my wife was accountable for her choices.

Mainly, this is about a way to see the perspective of your spouse. It helped more with how we related and talked to each other.

Your spouse will likely need more specific counseling to address his validation issues.

Married 36+ years, together 41+ years
Two awesome adult sons.
Dday 6/16 4-year LTA Survived.
M Restored
"It is better to conquer our grief than to deceive it." — Seneca

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nekonamida ( member #42956) posted at 6:22 PM on Monday, July 19th, 2021

I have read a few of his books and have done a workshop. Without knowing the details of your situation, I'd be wary of doing it soon after DDay. During R and the rebuilding of the marriage - yes, absolutely. But if your DDay is still fresh, your WH needs to focus on himself in IC and his transformation into a safe partner before you can rebuild the marriage.

If he's doing this instead of working on himself, that's a big mistake. Don't allow him to get out of working on himself because the marriage didn't cheat. HE did. Don't allow him to walk away from this thinking the marriage is to blame in any shape or form for his cheating. And especially don't accept any shared blame for it either. He needs to figure it out himself regardless of how the session goes.

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This0is0Fine ( member #72277) posted at 6:47 PM on Monday, July 19th, 2021

They have a great reputation for improving communication skills - which probably would have helped prevent this from ever having happened.

This is a super loaded statement. That if the "communication" issues hadn't existed the A wouldn't have happened, and that since communication is a two way street, maybe you share some blame. You do not share any blame in the A. So let's just be really clear about that going in to your whole marriage counseling session.

No amount of communication can affair-proof your marriage or fix your WH's decision to betray you. Accept NO blameshifting.

OK, so my second MC (had to fire the first), is Gottman trained AND specializes in infidelity outside of the Gottman methods. I think this is very important. As good as the Gottman tools are for communication and having more productive conflicts, they aren't designed specifically to overcome, repair, and reconcile from an A.

Your expectation then, from such a workshop, should be to open up a more honest and transparent dialogue with your WH. You'll understand where your marriage is strong and where it is weak (according to the Seven Principles). You'll learn about different aspects of trust and how to establish (or in your case re-establish them).

Do not expect to ACTUALLY solve anything. In fact, you'll learn that something like 60% of all marital issues are perpetual and you'll just have to cope. If infidelity is going to be a perpetual issue, I wouldn't recommend coping.

What you will likely end up with, is a nice map of all of your marital problems, with Mount Affair standing tall above the rest of it. You'll be able to talk about it with your WH, hopefully usefully, and if you get defensive, or flood, or he stonewalls, you will be able to stop, take a break, and continue that discussion instead of it turning into a fight every time.

I am really interested in knowing if they will also deal with digging into why he decided to stray, atonement, my issues with pulling back

I think that society in general, with MC's not being exempt come with a huge number of preconceived notions about why people decide to cheat. They buy the "unmet needs" fallacy, which is just more blame shifting. Don't accept that. The "why" you are looking for is related to his choice to deceive you, his partner, for his own personal gain. If someone cheats "because of a crisis" or "unmet needs", there is nothing you can do to fix or prevent it again. They have externalized the problem, and not found the "why" that will make them a safe partner.

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 7:01 PM on Monday, July 19th, 2021

^^^^ Everything This0is0Fine said.

NOTHING you do or say can cause someones else to turn their back on their own core values and throw away their integrity.

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs); Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 10

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keptmyword ( member #35526) posted at 8:39 PM on Monday, July 19th, 2021

They have a great reputation for improving communication skills - which probably would have helped prevent this from ever having happened.

No, it would not have.

There is nothing you could have done or not done, nor anything you could have said or not said, that would have prevented this from happening.

His reasons for choosing to do this had nothing to do with you or your marriage - nothing.

Infidelity is not a marital failure or the result of marital problems.

Infidelity is a personal and moral failure of the one who decides to commit infidelity.

All the reasons for his decision to betray exist solely within him and those reasons were there long before you ever met him.

I would not at all bank on any kind of “couples therapy” as instilling some sort of deterrent from him doing this again.

Don’t ever accept any blame or responsibility for his behavior - EVER.

For if you do accept any blame, then that excuse will always be there for him to start rationalizing the behavior all over again.

It has nothing to do with you.

Filed for and proceeded with divorce.

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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 11:17 PM on Monday, July 19th, 2021

The problem probably isn't lack of communication skill - I think it's much more likely that people cheat when they have things they're not willing to communicate. I suspect no amount of skills training can overcome that.

WRT digging into the A, some MCs realize the A has to be attended to first. If it isn't, no amount of work on other things will rebuild an M. Too many professionals rugsweep or blameshift, though. I don't know how Gottman training addresses infidelity.

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex apDDay - 12/22/2010Recover'd and R'edYou don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

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This0is0Fine ( member #72277) posted at 11:43 PM on Monday, July 19th, 2021

I don't know how Gottman training addresses infidelity.

It recognizes that it's a special issue and deeply harmful to the relationship. Broadly, it is treated as an especially bad version of "turning away" from your spouse instead of "turning toward" your spouse.

In recovering trust, it uses a 3 step process, "Atone, Attune, Attach". It more or less aligns with a lot of the advice here. When atoning, the WS has to give complete transparency, full blame, etc. Attune is about talking openly about emotions and being vulnerable. Attach is basically about restoring sex life (since it is often very tainted after an A). This method is described in "What Makes Love Last?" (How to build trust and avoid betrayal)

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 5:46 PM, July 19th (Monday)]

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

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 ReadytoWorkonMe (original poster new member #79141) posted at 1:32 AM on Tuesday, July 20th, 2021

Thanks to all of you for your replies and insights. I agree with all of you.

I discovered what he initially said was an EA back in mid-2007. In mid-2009, I found out he was having phone sex with a different woman, and that then led to him admitting the 2007 affair was sexual. He said he would never ever do anything like any of that again. But then over the next few years he had heavy flirtatious things go on with other women - primarily by phone, once in person. Each of those broke my trust and so I slowly pulled back more and more emotionally. We still got along in most ways, but I always wanted us to do MC as I knew I wasn't giving and affectionate in the way I wanted to be. We finally started MC all these years later early this year. He said : "are you sure you want to do this, it could open up Pandora's box". I said yes I was willing to work through hard issues. Shortly after we "dealt" with the A, he became extremely critical of me. Even has said that he thinks we are incompatible! So this week we head off for the two day therapy... I just want to figure out if we can make our M really strong and loving again or not. If not, if he doesn't try and commit to working on it, then I will at long last make the choice to end our M. Thanks again for your thoughts.

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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 2:04 AM on Tuesday, July 20th, 2021

I think it's okay to make a last ditch effort of it so long as you are taking up for yourself. You didn't cause your WH to cheat and lie. That's about his character. There's a gap between his stated values and his actual deeds. IOW, he's got a "but..." in his stated value of Fidelity. ie. "He believes in Fidelity, but... not if he feels like he needs more attention.". That's like being a "little bit pregnant", right? You either are or you're not. He either VALUES fidelity... or he doesn't. You don't control that. I don't have an out-clause on my core value of fidelity. I've got a "so..." instead. ie. "I believe in Fidelity, so... I don't put myself in risky situations with people of the opposite sex." You see how that BOUNDARY just forms up organically to protect what's valuable to you. No value, no boundary.

I'm going to reprint a post that I made for someone else regarding the "unmet needs" fallacy. Just ignore whatever parts aren't pertinent. But this is also something you're going to need to stand up for yourself on. Too many therapists try to make us responsible for our partners' cheating, but we can't CONTROL other people and how they interact with their failed values system. So, like I said above, I think it's an okay thing to do, just remember that you're going to need to be tough at times and really advocate for yourself. Smoothing things over won't work in the long term because it won't solve the problems and the injustice of it will stick in your craw.

ETA: Remember that the two things you want to go to the mat over are: 1) Blame-shifting and 2) Unmet Needs fallacy. It's okay to admit ANY and ALL of your marital wrong-doing, just as long as NONE of it is used to explain, justify, or excuse your WH's lack of integrity. He needs to own that 100% without qualification. If he can't, then you know what you need to know about him, right?

My own WH went on a Craigslist binge six years ago, multiple partners, various degrees of emotional attachment. He even thought he was in love at one point. But ten years before that, I'd caught him out in some online shenanigans, porn, cybersexing, emotional affair, etc. In fact, I caught him out only two weeks before a planned meet-up. I'd already seen an attorney before I confronted him and I was bent on divorce, but he pretty much cried his way out of it and I settled on MC. As you might have guessed already, we too were bamboozled with the "unmet needs" model of therapy, which sounds so reasonable. I upped my wife game, and did my best pick-me polka, but within a couple of years, he was right back at it behind my back. By the time we reached the ten year mark, he had screwed up his nerve to go live and in person on Craigslist.

Of course, I was pretty shocked as you might imagine. I thought we were good. I thought his "needs" were met. Damned if I hadn't been turning myself inside out for a decade to make sure, right? The more I thought about it, the more I revisited what I knew about the "unmet needs model", the less it made sense. I was doing everything right and he still CHOSE to cheat.

Here's the fly in the "unmet needs" ointment...

Healthy ADULTS don't need to be validated. They validate internally. Healthy adults are self-fruitful in the matter of contentment and life satisfaction, and when things come up which make them unhappy, they address the cause and solve the problem. OTOH, the vast majority of cheaters cheat because they're seeking external validation. They are NOT emotionally healthy. They can't do it on their own. They've got a hole inside them and no amount of external validation will fill it. Certainly, the old and familiar validation of a spouse doesn't get the job done. Our "kibbles" are stale and boring. They don't create enough adrenaline anymore to make the cheater feel special. It's like getting an "atta boy" from your mom, right?

This is old pop-psy which is still being taught in schools and still selling books. But it's bullshit. NOTHING you can do (or fail to do) can MAKE another person throw away their core values and do something that's in this kind of opposition to good character. If you're a person who BELIEVES in fidelity, who VALUES fidelity, you don't cheat. End of story. Because when we truly value something we protect it. The cheater has a "but..." in his values system. ie. "I believe in fidelity, but... not if my needs aren't being met." For people like you and me, we have a "so..." in our values system. ie. "I believe in fidelity, so... I don't put myself in risky situations with the opposite sex." This is the BOUNDARY we create organically. We don't sit around planning it out. It just happens, because it's innate to our character to protect what we value. The cheater doesn't have those boundaries because he doesn't really honor his values. He only claims to.

I'm not saying that your marriage is over or that your WH can't change. What I am saying though is that this "unmet needs" model is NOT going to challenge him to clean up his flawed character. In fact, it allows him to offload responsibility onto the marriage and onto YOU. It's not your job to MAKE him feel (fill-in-the-blank-here). It never was. It's his job to control his feelings. You could have been doing everything exactly perfect for the entire length of your marriage, and he would still have cheated... because there's NOTHING in his character stopping him and he has no coping mechanism to fall back on when he feels unvalidated, inadequate, unappreciated, etc.

It's HIS job to see that his "needs" get met. Sometimes that might mean negotiating with you, say if it's about sex or about the division of labor in your home, etc. But sometimes, it might mean that what he sees as a "need" is unhealthy in an adult, like external validation through attention and flattery.

MC's are there to treat the marriage. The marriage is the client. So, of course they're going to talk about communications, resentments and expectations. The MC doesn't want to alienate anyone, so s/he's looking to find balance on both sides. But marriages don't cheat. People do. The only way your WH is going to make a change that safeguards against further perfidy is by correcting his need for external validation and becoming an emotionally healthy adult whose deeds are as good as his word. No excuses, just honoring the things he claims to value. For that, I would recommend IC (individual counseling) with a therapist who is well-versed in adultery.

The last thing any newly-minted BS needs is to walk into an MC's office, believing that they've come to safe harbor, and being handed a copy of The Five Love Languages or some other "unmet needs" gobbledygook. It would be really nice if we actually did have the power to control our mate by giving them "acts of service" or "words of affirmation", but sadly, we aren't gods who can stop a cheater from seeking out his/her choice of adrenaline rush and new kibbles. Although, this kind of pop-psy suggests that their behavior is somehow our responsibility. The more you dig into this ridiculous line of thought, the more absurd it becomes.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 8:10 PM, July 19th (Monday)]

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs); Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 10

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PSTI ( member #53103) posted at 2:39 AM on Tuesday, July 20th, 2021

Healthy ADULTS don't need to be validated. They validate internally. Healthy adults are self-fruitful in the matter of contentment and life satisfaction, and when things come up which make them unhappy, they address the cause and solve the problem.

Hmm. Now this is interesting. It's funny, I'm literally teaching my 11 year old about internal vs external motivation at this time. But motivation and validation are not the same thing at all.

That being said... I don't think it's 100% true. I think everyone needs validation. In fact, one of the primary ways that we show we are listening and that we care about people is to validate them. It's one of the basic tenets of communication that even if you don't agree with someone that you can validate how they are feeling.

I firmly believe that if an intimate relationship of ANY sort (friendship or romantic or familial) does not involve mutual validation, then it's much more likely to be an unhealthy relationship.

Once again- this doesn't excuse cheating in any way, shape, or form. Cheaters choose to cheat, regardless of unmet needs or otherwise. But I cannot agree with the concept of an intimate relationship without emotional validation.

[This message edited by PSTI at 8:41 PM, July 19th (Monday)]

Me: BW, my xH left me & DS after a 14 year marriage for the AP in 2014.

Happily remarried and in an open/polyamorous relationship. DH (married 5 years) & DBF (dating 4 years). Cohabitating happily all together!! <3

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gmc94 ( member #62810) posted at 2:50 AM on Tuesday, July 20th, 2021

You've already booked this, so not sure what advice may help here.

I saw gottman trained MC right after dday. Huge mistake for me.

I gotta echo all the others who've said infidelity is a person problem - NOT a marriage problem.

M >25yrs/grown kids
DD1 1994 ONS prostitute
DD2 2018 exGF1 10+yrEA & 10yrPA... + exGF2 EA forever & "made out" 2017
9/18 WH hung himself- died but revived

It's rude to say "I love you" with a mouthful of lies

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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 3:01 AM on Tuesday, July 20th, 2021

There's a difference between "need" and "want", PSTI. Everybody likes compliments. But when you NEED somebody to kiss your ass and tell you how great you are because you aren't capable of feeling good about yourself without it?... you don't have to have a crystal ball to predict there will be problem behaviors.

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs); Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 10

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HowCouldSheDoIt ( member #78431) posted at 3:06 AM on Tuesday, July 20th, 2021

I have some experience with Gottman, lots of research there. Gottman has effective tools to help communications and they have a way to heal from an affair. I think what they offer is good and their affair framework is very sound.

However, it requires both parties are willing to go through it, and as I discovered, I didn't have that.

If you have two willing people, I beleive the framework can work. One thing I don't agree with though: They suggest the the couple does not talk about the affair unless they are in session. Very unrealistic.

But they are spot on when they suggest in the atone phase it is all about the A, for as long as it takes. Their book has a lot of things right. In one of her videos, Julie even says that during atonement you don't analyze the marriage yet. Only after there has been atonement and remorse upon remorse that you start to move to the other stages.

So if you have two willing partners, I think it could work very well.

Me: BH Mid 50's
Her: WW Mid 50's
D-Day Nov 2020
Married 21 years before D-Day
3 children
Separated and going through a very amicable divorce

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nekonamida ( member #42956) posted at 3:07 AM on Tuesday, July 20th, 2021

RtWoM, I think you need to really re-read the posts here and absorb their meaning. All of them are telling you that working on the MARRIAGE is not addressing the infidelity. So why do you still believe that it's the marriage that needs to be fixed? Shouldn't you be asking about how your WH can go from serial cheater to good husband?

Like we've been saying - he needs to stop working on the marriage and start working on himself and his need for seeking validation from women outside of your marriage.

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sillyoldsod ( member #43649) posted at 9:13 AM on Tuesday, July 20th, 2021

Hi RtWoM,

I haven't tried Gottman couples therapy but I have to say I agree with what everyone here is pointing out, in that it's not a marriage issue but rather an infidelity issue that is causing the marriage issue. That is something only your WH can address and potentially make amends for.

I just want to figure out if we can make our M really strong and loving again or not. If not, if he doesn't try and commit to working on it, then I will at long last make the choice to end our M.

The only word I'd change in your statement above is 'we' to 'he'.

It's hardly surprising you're not as giving and affectionate in the way you want to be, but ultimately your WH's actions have caused those consequences.

Please do re-read this thread RtWoM.

(((RtWoM)))

I've never met a sociopath I didn't like.

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PSTI ( member #53103) posted at 4:32 PM on Tuesday, July 20th, 2021

There's a difference between "need" and "want", PSTI. Everybody likes compliments. But when you NEED somebody to kiss your ass and tell you how great you are because you aren't capable of feeling good about yourself without it?... you don't have to have a crystal ball to predict there will be problem behaviors.

CT, validation isn't compliments. Validation is literally an expression of recognition that a person's feelings are heard and worthwhile. It doesn't mean you agree with those feelings. It's acceptance of them.

I think you may be working from an incorrect definition of validation. It's not ego kibbles. It's not that you can't feel good about yourself without it.

Me: BW, my xH left me & DS after a 14 year marriage for the AP in 2014.

Happily remarried and in an open/polyamorous relationship. DH (married 5 years) & DBF (dating 4 years). Cohabitating happily all together!! <3

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Ladybugmaam ( member #69881) posted at 4:35 PM on Tuesday, July 20th, 2021

Both our MC were Gotten trained. Would have stayed with the first, but she had health issues. Second also had EMDR training, which was super helpful for me. We read all the books, did the homework. Did an intensive early on. We found it super helpful.

EA DD 11/2018
PA DD 2/25/19
One teen son
I am a phoenix.

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id 8677009
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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 4:48 PM on Tuesday, July 20th, 2021

I understand what I'm saying perfectly well, PSTI. You can disagree if you want. That's your prerogative. Your opinion doesn't change or affect mine at all.

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs); Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 10

posts: 7097   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8677015
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 ReadytoWorkonMe (original poster new member #79141) posted at 6:24 PM on Tuesday, July 20th, 2021

Again, many thanks to all for the replies and insights. I still don't know how to reply to a specific post, so if there is a way to do so please advise.

ChamomileTea: You are spot on re: blame-shifting & unmet needs fallacy. Those are where he is going, even while he says that it was unacceptable regardless...

HowCouldSheDoIt, This0is0Fine,& Ladybugmaam: Thx for feedback specifically on Gottman therapy. I figure I will learn some great skills to apply in any and all relationships. If my H is ready to commit, then it will help our M. If not, then it will be time to move on, and I'll use the skills elsewhere!

All: so wish I'd found this site so many years ago!

There is so much wisdom in all you have said. Many thanks. I'll send an update after our 2 day intensive!

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