SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I haven't initiated a post in a while. I'm not even sure what I want to accomplish, other then vent.

D-Day was in 2007. There was some Industrial-Grade Rug Sweeping that occurred. WW and AP had fights; I had to push the affair aside to keep WW out of jail...meanwhile the affair continued. Events were also hidden from me "for my own protection."

In 2008, the affair ended. While I was certain nothing would happen again, underlying issues were never addressed. I continued to feel blamed for the A.

I stayed for the family, and bottled up most of my issues. Our relationship became bearable. Every few years I would try to address the affair, maybe get a few tidbits after fighting for it.

Around 2018, we started couples therapy, something I also had to fight for; and much of it for issues that did not directly involve the A. Even in therapy, the affair was often avoided. We would do a lot of work on me, my communication difficulties, my problems. The therapist even cautioned me about getting too much information about the affair.

Breakthrough

A few weeks ago, I was discussing how anxious I was, how little control I had over things (not A related). I ended up making some good arguments about how much the affair impacted me, but I still don't even know what occurred.

The therapist agreed this time, telling fWW I am not going to move past this while things stay hidden.

We had multiple sessions over a few days. I think it was the first time I really got to state my side of the story. I think WW had not really realized just how much was a mystery to me, and how much effort I put into saving her and the marriage with no reward. I suspect our therapist, after fully hearing my side of the story, was also surprised at how much was unjustly hidden from me.

We started with the events of Dday, all the legal stuff that I saved WW from even though I didn't know what was happening.

Something I learned about WW (with help from therapist): The AP manipulated and weaponized Words of Affirmation. Words of Affirmation now mean less than nothing for WW; she doesn't trust them and she refuses to use them...so I don't get affirmations.

WW confessed how ashamed she was for being the naive one (something she accused me of). She also confessed how ashamed she was for falling for lunacy, whereas I know who to avoid and am strong enough to do so. WW apologized for not crediting me for my efforts. These are all new things.

In the days after, I had some honest conversations with fWW. fWW was more transparent than in the past; she still pushed back on answering some of the sex questions, but she provided far more than before.

She did complain that I am never going to get past this. I pointed out that she has been the one who controlled all the information, and was setting the terms for my healing.

At this point, I don't know that there are any other questions I need answered...and that is progress. The hiding seems to be over.

I was a little disheartened by the answers to the sex questions...but I think I can deal with it because now I actually know what I am dealing with. fWW treated me like an adult, allowed me to make my own judgements, and is in less control over my healing.

I do feel bit emasculated, but thanks to this site, and recommendations of No More Mr Nice Guy, I can take charge of my healing.

For years, I have felt like sex was done as a marital favor to me. I flipped that last week. I gave her some requirements in order to have sex with me...and she complied. I still have plenty of work to do to on my self confidence but this was a good start.

While I am pleased that progress has been made, I do resent that it took 14 f'n years to get to this point.

I am not happy, but at this point I don't see myself as stuck either.

Edit: I did not require her to have sex with me. I demanded some requirements be met if she wanted to have sex with me.

[This message edited by 3yrwait at 1:12 PM, July 21st (Wednesday)]

I give you credit for hanging in there. Your wife is lucky to have you as her H.

I hope your healing continues.

still pushed back on answering some of the sex questions, but she provided far more than before.

She did complain that I am never going to get past this.

14 years later and you're still getting trickle truth, DARVO and “get over it.” Wonder why you still feel stuck. I'm more of a cynic but after 14 years and still this same nonsense from her, doesn't sound like much of a breakthrough. I'm constantly both amazed and jaded by the widespread narcissism of wayward spouses.

"I gave her some requirements to have sex with me".

Can you elaborate on what these "requirements" were?

After all this time why do you essentially have to coerce your wife to have sex with you?

Why would you want sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you?

Good to know that you feel like progress has been made.

No matter what, no matter how wronged we were, never changes the fact that we are responsible for the choices we make with the information we have. Obviously, it is sooooo much easier as we get further away from the raw hurt. Good decisions or bad, they were our choices, and we may or may not be satisfied with those choices. One of the age-old sayings is when you look at yourself in the mirror x years from now, will you be able to look that person in the eyes? And only we can answer that question. For me, I can look in the mirror, but I'm definitely ticked at some of my actions, or more importantly, inactions. But, they were my choices to make, like it or not, and I have to live with them. Are you okay with your choices? I'm sure that you have some regrets(most of us do), but how much would you do the same?

I ask that, because even though we can't turn back time, we can make choices now that can have a large impact on the future. I don't call them 'do-overs'; I call them 'do-nows'. Because, right here, you have a statement in front of you:

She did complain that I am never going to get past this.

My answer to this statement? Your wife should understand that you could have earnestly started working past this 14 EFFING YEARS AGO if she had the effing courtesy and respect to give you all of the information you ask(ed) for. It is disgusting enough to betray someone in one of the worst possible ways; it is another to decide ON THEIR OWN what information is or is not 'deemed necessary' to the very one who they betrayed. So if you're 14 years behind the 8-ball, you can let her know that sits squarely on her shoulders. And if she really gets the damage that she has done, she will understand.

Yes, you both did a lot of rugsweeping by your own admission. But the good news(or bad, however you look at it) is that there is no statute of limitations to get all of this out in the open, and actively address these still-lingering issues.

Thumos,

Acknowledged. This is a process. I feel less stuck because fWW has answered questions and been less defensive. So progress has been made on part of the process. Will it last? I don’t know; life and family events are allowing me more options than I had 5, 10 and 14 years ago.

Booyah,

Lots of factors surrounding the affair hit my self esteem. I thought the worst of myself and no outside information was provided that countered those beliefs.

I told fWW that if she wants to have sex with me, she needs to tell me what specifically makes me better than other partners, particularly in bed. If she doesn’t believe, and can’t convince me that I am a catch, Reconciliation is a waste of time.

She seemed righteously offended at first. I told her I know more positive attributes about AP and her friends’ partners than I have heard about me. She accepted that, told me some things. Over the following days, she has acted like she wants sex rather than offering or giving it as a favor.

Overall, she is not withholding information or positive feedback. This is progress.

Thumos,

Acknowledged. This is a process. I feel less stuck because fWW has answered questions and been less defensive. So progress has been made on part of the process. Will it last? I don’t know; life and family events are allowing me more options than I had 5, 10 and 14 years ago.

True enough but surely you see the twisted logic your wife is attempting here. You JUST NOW are getting a few more trickles of truth from her, reluctantly, followed by her eye-rolling attitude of 'when are you going to let this go?'

You see?

A poster named But For the Grace has come up with a really good phrase to describe this behavior: essentially privileging the cocoon of intimacy in the affair over you, over your pain, over your healing, over her own family. When you begin to see it that way (and I think it is an accurate description) it looks very stark, and deservedly so.

What you've been getting for 14 years is a vacuum of real intimacy and authenticity from your wife on top of her initial betrayal. I can't really fathom how deep the damage must be, but I'm sure it's incredibly deep. And after all that, all she can muster is a half hearted few bits of new information?

She still doesn't get it after nearly 1.5 DECADES that while she has still been withholding details and not being transparent it has delayed or perhaps permanently forestalled your healing.

The very reason you have felt stuck is HER. She is the fountainhead of your pain. And that same wellspring of trauma continues to dole out drips and drabs of information while she pouts about your inability to live with a lie.

I feel bad that this is defined as progress.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:52 PM, July 21st (Wednesday)]

Nearly 14 years of rugsweeping and blameshifting. IDK how I feel about fWW... But people have told me the same when I use fWW, so I'll leave the label up to you.

Words of Affirmation now mean less than nothing for WW; she doesn't trust them and she refuses to use them...so I don't get affirmations.

If AP weaponized sex would you be OK not getting sex? I mean, I don't know what your love languages are and stuff, but I would not tolerate that.

WW confessed how ashamed she was for being the naive one (something she accused me of). She also confessed how ashamed she was for falling for lunacy

She knew what she was doing. Do not let her blame AP for her choice to be in an A.

She did complain that I am never going to get past this. I pointed out that she has been the one who controlled all the information, and was setting the terms for my healing.

One of my requirements for R was an understanding from my wife that the A is part of our story now. It can be forgiven, but will not be forgotten. If it is relevant to my feelings, I will bring it up. Potentially for the rest of our lives. So, maybe define what "getting past" means, because it doesn't mean returning to rugsweeping.

The hiding seems to be over.

You are just now, maybe, getting transparency. Your R journey has just begun.

I'm not trying to shit on your progress. I'm glad you are feeling progress. The way you tell it though, I think you have just now left 14 years of limbo.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 9:48 PM, July 22nd (Thursday)]

The very reason you have felt stuck is HER.

Gently, your thinking you're stuck is not on your W; it's on you.

You made choices way back after d-day that you were uncomfortable with. That's understandable - every choice has serious negative aspects.

But whenever you feel stuck, you can remind yourself that you made the best choice you could after d-day and that you can change your choice at any time.

I hope your W is learning that honesty is crucial to living a good life. Whether she is or not, your sitch has changed, and you still have the ability to make new choices, if that's what you want to do.

[This message edited by sisoon at 6:06 PM, July 22nd (Thursday)]

You're a one super patient guy! It took 14 years of waiting for your WW to finally realize what's happening around her.

It's a good thing you're always there for her despite her not realizing you're there. That timeline you've been asking her should have been given from the time of the discovery of the A. It took a lot of time to take even simplest details from her and she's still keeping more details for herself.

I am honestly not sure if you're 'unstuck' for that matter because there's still a lot of work for both of you, especially for her. She hasn't fully came back to you if you're going to ask me. She's still holding on to all those things she has hidden throughout the years.

Gently, your thinking you're stuck is not on your W; it's on you.

The zen koan finger pointing at the moon stuff doesn't work for me. Maybe it doesn't work for you either, OP. A marriage and a real reconciliation must be a two way partnership. If one partner isn't pulling their load then you will feel stuck and rightly so.

But sisoon is correct insofar as you can push the eject button anytime you want.

Thumos, If your being stuck is your W's responsibility, you've tied yourself to your tormentor. How will you heal if she doesn't?

What does 'finger-pointing' mean to you? Usually it means 'blame', but blame doesn't get anyone anywhere. A person in need of spiritual or emotional healing needs to take responsibility for themself. The power to heal spiritually/emotionally lies within the person wanting to heal.

Thumos, If you are being stuck in your W's responsibility, you've tied yourself to your tormentor. How will you heal if she doesn't?

What does 'finger-pointing' mean to you? Usually, it means 'blame,' but blame doesn't get anyone anywhere. A person in need of spiritual or emotional healing needs to take responsibility for themself. The power to heal spiritually/emotionally lies within the person wanting to heal.

I couldn't agree more with Sisoon here. I am 10 years out. It took me a while, maybe 2 years, to disentangle that piece. My happiness and contentment are not contingent on anything my partner provides. I was keeping myself stuck. I had to let go of the outcome and the marriage. I had to turn toward myself, figure out why I allowed her to set the rules, call the shots, and then blamed her for where I was. It's a difficult shit burger to eat. But once you do, it's freeing. You then can choose the marriage (or not) from a place of moving toward your happiness and sanity. It required us to make a new marriage, one that is not without flaws, but certainly not one I am beholden to over my own safety and sanity. You can heal yourself. It needs to occur before you heal your marriage.

LHAP?

Healing yourself does come from the inside.

But I agree with Thumos, if only one of you is rowing, you're just going to go in circles.

Either they have to row, or you have to jump off the boat. You can try to convince them to row, but you can't force them to.

This guy has been rowing in circles for 14 years.

But I agree with Thumos, if only one of you is rowing, you're just going to go in circles.

Either they have to row, or you have to jump off the boat. You can try to convince them to row, but you can't force them to.

This guy has been rowing in circles for 14 years.

I couldn't agree more. Exactly why he needs to focus on his healing and make a decision to jump out of the boat or see his partner start to paddle. But it starts with his healing and strength. It's hard to leave when you are not leaving toward what's best for you. I hope he finds his strength and leaves or demands to be treated to the marriage he is entitled to. And if she cant provide it, then again move on toward his happiness.

Ah, 3yearwait, 14 years is such a long time to be wondering, hoping, worried, resentful, and more - right? Yep - my first DDay was 14 years ago too.

While there is a lot of talk here about how long you've taken, I know from personal experience how easy it is to see hope, and think that things have changed. My fWh (I think that means former wandering husband - yes?) stopped looking outside our marriage in 2015... after 8 or 9 years of looking for fun outside of it (only one PA, but lots of inappropriate other crap). When you believe that your spouse is really not the person that is doing this then you truly believe they will find themselves eventually. So I get it!

I do hope that it all works out for you. One thing that I've discovered in just the last couple of months is that there are some fantastic podcasts out there by some well trained Marriage counselors/ therapists/ specialists in all of this stuff.

Helping Couples Heal is a great one, with two great marriage therapists, and they bring in a number of other highly qualified folks too. Good luck in your journey- it never hurts!

What does 'finger-pointing' mean to you? Usually it means 'blame', but blame doesn't get anyone anywhere.

I wasn't referring to “finger pointing” I was referring to “finger pointing at the moon” -- a zen koan. My reference was obscure, unless you’ve read some Zen philosophy.

The finger can point to the moon. However the finger isn't the moon itself. The old koan is something like “don’t mistake the finger pointing to the moon for the moon itself.”

In this case I personally believe the “you heal you, WS heals themselves” mantra is a bit like the finger pointing at the moon. It's a helpful guide for seeing the moon. But it isn't the thing itself.

Yes you'll have to take responsibility for your own healing as a betrayed spouse, but as Linda MacDonald repeatedly points out a WS who won't make an attempt to move from being a destroyer to a healer is not worth reconciling with.

That's the moon in this zen koan analogy. The moon is a lot bigger and brighter than the finger pointing at it.

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:46 PM, July 25th (Sunday)]

Honestly .... I have read your story (which in many places I think you have deliberately left a bit obscure) and I am amazed! I would NEVER EVER have handled her like this ... You have to be just madly and blindly in love with her to act like this ... The impression is that she has little regard for you and gives you sugar cubes here and there. go on more in peace. I don't know her and her psyche so it's not easy to judge, but you definitely need to take over ALL the relationship situation between you and her and become its pilot, accepting any risk in this regard. Having said that, I would have ditched her in 2007. However, the best wishes for both , but especially for you

[This message edited by maxfocs at 4:56 AM, July 26th (Monday)]