SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I’m thinking this thread seems to be evolving from a simple question of the lack of couples on the site to a general discussion of the relative merits of civility vs. tough love, and exactly when and how "tough love" crosses over into just general assholery.

Thumos you have, as usual, constructed a well thought out, vigorous (and, as always, verbose) defense of using strong clear language and direct advice. I can’t necessarily disagree with any of your points there. It probably wouldn’t surprise you to learn that I had almost the same discussion in the men’s forum about 7 years ago. But it might surprise you to learn that, at that time, I was the one arguing your side.

So I get it, sometimes direct and strong descriptive language is not only called for, but even necessary to snap someone out of the fugue of complacency that sometimes results from extreme trauma.

I don’t so much disagree with the merits of the occasional verbal "slap up side the head" as I do with the way I see it being so vigorously applied as of late. I think that someone else has already made the point, but it bears repeating that, lately anyway, there seems to be almost a mad rush of BS’ almost tripping over themselves to be the first, the firmest, the fastest and yes even the furious-est (Vin Diesel has my permission to use that ) post out the gate.

It’s not just one post applying some tough love to wake some poor BS up. It’s literally post after post after post telling new BS’ that: It’s almost certain that their WS did more than they think, with more people than they think, in more places than they think, in more degrading ways than they think, that every word out of their WS’ mouth is almost certainly a lie, that they are almost certainly still carrying on the affair, that their WS is absolutely not remorseful but just sorry that they got caught, that they are clearly and obviously their WS’ plan B and that the only reason their WS might want to try and salvage their marriage is because of financial security, that their children may not even be theirs…

Are some or all of those things accurate? Maybe. Maybe some of them. Maybe all of them. Maybe none of them. We don’t really know. Are they possibilities that a newly betrayed person should probably be aware of? Sure. Might they need a little tough love to see that? Again sure.

But do they need to have it hammered down on them over and over until the weight of it drives them to their fucking knees? Not fucking likely.

So why do I see that happening? I have some thoughts. And I have come to them through painful experience. I think that sometimes, not always, but sometimes BS’ dealing with the pain of infidelity are trying to come to terms with feeling weak, with feeling victimized, with feeling disempowered, with feeling helpless in the face of situations out of their direct control. And that in an effort to feel stronger, less victimized, more powerful, less helpless, more in control, they rush to project the hardest line possible against wayward behavior.

Understandable, even acceptable, on an individual basis. But a bit more problematical when it comes to groups. I think there is a danger of a weird sort of "virtue signaling" occurring. With BS’ trying to prove to one another (and maybe themselves) that they are the toughest on Infidelity. They are the biggest hard ass, that they are, to use their own charming term, not a "cuck".

I think I’ve used the expression before: "Re-litigating their own situation through the lens of someone else’s". Understandably tempting to do, but probably not terribly helpful to the person to whom it is being done.

It funny to, because you see almost the exact same thing happening from time to time on the wayward forum. Some newly repentant WS, anxious to prove just how reformed they are, what an A+ student of remorse they are, comes out firing with both barrels at every new WS that pops their head up.

Again, a weird version of "virtue signaling".

Having said all that, I don’t claim to have a solution, (I don’t know… maybe everyone could get together and agree to take turns: this Tuesday I get to be the hard ass, Wednesday it’s Thumos, Thursday…). Except to say that, if the tone of the site has, as some would contend, trended to a greater level of assholery, the best solution I can think of is for people who disagree with that trend to start being louder in the opposite direction.

This website isn’t being driven by any one particular person, not even a team of people (no not even the mods and admins). It’s a community, and like any community the mood and tone tends to be set by those that show up and talk the oftenest and the loudest. Doesn’t mean that they are right, just more noticeable.

If you don’t like the mood or the tone, if you think the ones that are the "loudest" are wrong? Well then start showing up more often and presenting the opposing position. It’ll take while to change the course but change it will, eventually.

Come on all you nice, thoughtful, measured, reasonable people! Sisoon can’t do it all by himself!

All that being said. I would enjoy further discussion of the relative merits and pitfalls of couples being on SI together. The original purpose of this thread. End threadjack?

HT

^ that

When my FWW first came here almost 18 years ago she decided to participate because it felt like a safe place where a WS could embark on recovery without the kind of harsh judgement that she was not prepared to endure at that point. What she found was that the FWSs were more than capable of delivering 2x4s and calling on her to "own her shit" when it was called for. There were some deeply remorseful FWSs fully committed to R who were active not only in helping fellow WSs but BSs as well. Site co-founder Deeply Scared led by example and is deeply missed here. My FWW, in turn, spent years here helping WSs and BSs alike long after we were reconciled and happy.

I left SI to my FWW as her safe space. I deeply regret that now. There was a lot that I could have learned here. I figured that I could afford to leave this space to her. I was in IC. We were in MC. I had the services of a qualified professional. Every forum I had visited prior had only heaped shame on me for daring to hope that we could save our marriage.

I agree with those who suggest that a militant group of anti-R BSs are part of the problem here. I'm sorry to say that because they have points that every BS should hear and consider. But the anger and bitterness in the way they deliver their message really doesn't serve them or the freshly devastated BS well.

Are they really here to support recovery or just taking out their anger on every WS they encounter or hear about? It seems like they have a pat anti-R prescription for every situation. They share little about their own experience or how it might be relevant to the person they're advising. How much weight should someone who still loves their WS and wants to R give to the advice of someone who failed or didn't attempt it?

And why should a FWS wade into these unfriendly waters to help someone only to see themselves painted with the same broad brush that these angry BSs apply to their unremorseful WSs?

I don't envy the mods for having to find the right balance here. My only suggestion is to be more aggressive on inflammatory language and generalizations in the R forum.

[This message edited by Seeking2Forgive at 2:33 AM, Tuesday, November 16th]

WOES:

BluerthanBlue, based on your criteria I never would have been a member but it was actually being a member that helped me.

It's great that you and your BS were an exception, WOES. But good advice isn't given on the basis of exceptions; it should be given on the basis of what is most common and likely, given the circumstances that
If an unremorseful and recalcitrant WS is guided by their BS to SI and consequently manages to dislodge their heads from their rectum, great. But those very select individuals are not going to encourage me to tell a a BS on JFO to invite a spouse who is actively cheating on them to join the site so the WS can discern how little (or much) the BS knows in order to gaslight more effectively, throw a tantrum and take it out on their BS each time they're criticized on SI, or avoid talking to their AP in the car because they know there's a VAR under the driver's seat, etc, etc, etc....

Seeking2Forgive: Since you brought up generalizations, I think your choice of language here is rather interesting:

How much weight should someone who still loves their WS and wants to R give to the advice of someone who failed or didn't attempt it?

Why is the onus of blame on the BS if reconciliation failed? What if the reason R was never attempted was because the WS was out the door or didn't give the BS anything with which to work toward reconciliation?

I would've loved to reconcile with ex-WH, but he was completely ambivalent about whether he wanted to stay married and he wouldn't stop cheating. That left me with only one option. Does that mean that my advice has no value, particularly to someone who is in a similar situation to mine?

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 5:11 AM, Tuesday, November 16th]

Well, I was almost chased out of SI because of my situation. I read a lot but don't post much so I don't get lambasted.

My XWH wouldn't do the work, same as many here. He's been diagnosed on the narcissistic scale by a PhD counselor, so I deal with that healing, too.

VAR? Lucky enough not to need one. Poly? No, I know he cheated and didn't need the expense to know more.

Sometimes 2x4's are warranted, but sometimes compassion and empathy are needed more.

ETA: The A stamped out any little bit of love I had left for XWH. He'd discarded me so many years before.

I got my Get Out of Jail Free Card and took it.

[This message edited by leafields at 6:27 AM, Tuesday, November 16th]

those very select individuals are not going to encourage me to tell a a BS on JFO to invite a spouse who is actively cheating on them to join the site so the WS can discern how little (or much) the BS knows in order to gaslight more effectively, throw a tantrum and take it out on their BS each time they're criticized on SI, or avoid talking to their AP in the car because they know there's a VAR under the driver's seat, etc,

Let me be clear that under these circumstances I wouldn’t recommend it either. What I am talking about is remorseful WS and the BS that wants to reconcile. But in all honesty, I haven’t seen much evidence of what you are describing either. I also feel that most WS that try to come here not mustache twirling villains but real people with real problems that could use some real help.

At the time I became a member here, I wasn’t a unicorn. Many of the active WS that were genuinely working on themselves had spouses that were active members as well.

How much weight should someone who still loves their WS and wants to R give to the advice of someone who failed or didn't attempt it?

I don’t read this as putting blame on a BS that wasn’t able to reconcile. I liken this more to people giving advice to you on how to raise your child when they don’t have any children themselves.

Obviously there is pretty standard advice across the board such as NC, remorse, transparency, but I am talking about advice that goes beyond that when you are in the thick of it.

For example, there was a thread that discussed that separation should be a SOP for anyone that wanted to reconcile. Despite the fact that many members who had reconciled or were reconciling were telling the OP why it would not have worked for them, the OP (who is not in Reconciliation) continued to argue the point. If it were worded differently, such as “I haven’t experienced this personally but maybe this idea could work” the advice might be received differently rather than “this is what you need to do.”

I personally will never give advice on divorce because I have never divorced. I don’t have the personal experience with it. If infidelity had taught me anything, it’s that you don’t understand something unless you have experienced it.

[This message edited by WalkinOnEggshelz at 12:03 PM, Tuesday, November 16th]

For example, there was a thread that discussed that separation should be a SOP for anyone that wanted to reconcile. Despite the fact that many members who had reconciled or were reconciling were telling the OP why it would not have worked for them, the OP (who is not in Reconciliation) continued to argue the point. If it were worded differently, such as "I haven’t experienced this personally but maybe this idea could work" the advice might be received differently rather than "this is what you need to do."

Well now I'm curious about an entirely different thing. Is such an opinion not welcome here? Is this place only open to those who are pro-reconciliation? Is this an actual problem, this recommendation for separation, or is it an opinion that was debated by those who agreed and those who disagreed? For example, I honestly down to my soul believe that a person with a sex addict is better off divorcing. I am not pro-R in those circumstances no matter the begging, the shows of remorse, meetings attended, etc, and I can argue why I feel that way. You could say I'm arguing from ignorance because I didn't R, but you could also say that I'm arguing from experience because I was with such a person and I have some understanding of the mindfuckery involved in sex addiction and wouldn't wish that on any human being. I am not anti-R, but I am pro-BS not dealing with...BS. I am one of those people who understands that there is life beyond any marriage and that no one has to even entertain reconciliation. R is profoundly hard work and it asks a lot of a BS. Divorce is really an easy way out a lot of times, and I'm not anti-a BS finding the easiest way out of this trauma. In my mind, that is being supportive. I don't advise on how to reconcile with a sex addict because that is something I cannot come anywhere near understanding how to do. I do know how to divorce one, though. So since we're getting specific, is my own personal stance on this not something that will be allowed?

I’m surprised that as a mod and a veteran poster, WOES, you couldn’t come up with at least 5 examples of each circumstance that was on my list. I know I could, but I won’t list them here, because I think it would be against the rules (and just bad etiquette) to list the many user names and threads to each example I provided.

Also, I don’t mean to be nit picky, but I did say that if the WS is remorseful and doing the work that the BS bringing them to SI could be helpful and appropriate.

And to be clear, I do think SI is beneficial to a WS who isn’t remorseful or committed to their marriage… but for the reasons I stated earlier, I don’t think they can derive as much benefit from it as they would if they weren’t conscious of their BS reading their threads and vice versa. For example, FamilyMan (who hasn’t been around for a while) and his wife chose to register on different sites precisely to avoid this problem and I think that was a really wise decision.

Lastly, even though I divorced and not reconciled, I don’t think that disqualifies me from being able to give advice to someone who wants to reconcile… mainly because I’m aware of the circumstances in my life that made reconciliation impossible for me and recognize what would’ve made it a feasible option.

Similarly, as someone who reconciled, WOES, I actually think you could offer advice to someone who is getting divorced. In many ways, the road to recovery is similar whether you reconcile or divorce. You have to learn how to not constantly live in the past. You have to be able to negotiate with your spouse sanely and respectfully, especially if you have kids. At a certain point, you have to stop rehashing old conflicts. That is a skill that you’ve clearly developed that could be just as beneficial to someone leaving the marriage as trying to perceive one.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:03 PM, Tuesday, November 16th]

Wow Dee! Seems like kind of a long circuitous trip to go from:

If it were worded differently…. the advice might be received differently…

And end up with this impression:

Is such an opinion not welcome here? Is this place only open to those who are pro-reconciliation?

And:

is my own personal stance on this not something that will be allowed?

Did you have to stop for gas and snacks on the way from point A to B there?

I would say that your 4590 posts over a 4 year period pretty solidly demonstrate that your stances are "allowed". So let’s not be hyperbolic.

I think the point being made was a point that you yourself made about a paragraph later in your own post:

I don't advise on how to reconcile with a sex addict because that is something I cannot come anywhere near understanding how to do. I do know how to divorce one, though.

Pre-fucking-cisely.

If someone wanted advise on how to divorce a sex addict I would probably not chime in myself because I have no experience on that particular subject. I suppose I might conceivably have some thoughts and I might share some of those, but I would hardly start throwing out absolutes and firm opinions on a subject about which I had no familiarity.

And if I started arguing about that subject with you, a person that does have intimate familiarity with the subject, I would imagine that you would try to set me straight. While no doubt explaining to me that you are familiar with the subject.

Not that I wouldn’t be "allowed" to have an opinion. Not that my opinion "isn’t welcome". Just to say that someone with a deep experience and knowledge base about a subject might be worth giving a bit closer of a listen to
regarding that subject.

I think the context here is important. The thread is about why there are not more "couples as members in R". Not: "Why aren’t there more actively cheating, unremorseful WS’ being invited here by their BS’?"

This thread was spurred, at least in part, by a conversation WOES and I had in which I noted, among other things, that often, when a BS attempting R posts on the board to ask if they should share the site with their WS; they are often strongly and repeatedly advised not to.

I was (and remain) skeptical as to the utility of this somewhat blanket advice from many members. I personally feel (and have experienced, and have witnessed) that SI can be an excellent tool for helping a couple navigate Reconciliation together.

Are there risks? Absolutely. But there always are. Studying physics got us the Atom bomb and Hiroshima and Nagasaki… but it also got us a bunch of really good shit too. So maybe we don’t always want to throw out the baby with the bath water.

For me personally? After DDay my give a fuck about consequences kind went out the fucking window. My marriage was already burned to the ground by her actions, she really couldn’t hurt me anymore than she already had. And chances were pretty good that we were going to end up divorced. So I pretty much figured I didn’t have much to lose from a Hail Mary.

So considering all that,I didn’t feel like there was much to lose in inviting her here on SI. What was gonna happen she was gonna say something fucked up and I would divorce her? We were already there. Was I going to hesitate to say my true feelings because she might read it? Fuck that, I could not have given less of a shit what she thought about anything I might write here. Believe me when I say that anything I wrote here I was more than willing to (and did) tell her directly to her face. I guess if I was hiding a VAR that could have been a problem, but other than that I just didn’t see a real downside

But I could see a whole lot of upside. I saw WS’ here that we’re owning their shit and could serve as an example of what that looked like. I saw members here, both BS and WS, that were able to articulate, far better than I could at the time, the feelings and experiences that we were both going through. And I saw examples of people who had managed to make it through to a better place, be it R or D.

I wanted her to see that as well. So that, whatever course we took, we would have at least a partial road map. We didn’t have any of those rules about not reading each other’s posts (like I would have been ok with her having any secrets from me at that point! As-fucking-if! Lol) but we managed to stay (mostly) civil. (I said mostly! Don’t you mods go digging up my past now! )

I think the problem I am seeing here on this thread is that many people seem to think the bar for entry for someone’s WS should be that they are already remorseful, and transparent, and empathetic, and honest, and forthcoming, and…. Basically already fixed.

And that’s ludicrous. That would be like saying someone couldn’t attend an AA meeting until after they had completed the 12 steps. It’s backward. If WS’ already had their shit together they wouldn’t be WS’ in the first fucking place.

Reconciliation is a journey, a process. It makes no sense to tell people they can’t get to the starting line until after they’ve already crossed the finish line.

Does that mean that every BS should bring their WS here? Of course fucking not. And I don’t think anyone here has or would suggest that with a straight face. Implying that that is what is being discussed here is simply hyperbolic and argumentative.

I think the point in discussion here is wether or not we, as a community, are taking too rigid a stance in recommending against any BS at all bringing their WS here.

HT

BluerThanBlue quoted someone else and then replied:

How much weight should someone who still loves their WS and wants to R give to the advice of someone who failed or didn't attempt it?

Why is the onus of blame on the BS if reconciliation failed? What if the reason R was never attempted was because the WS was out the door or didn't give the BS anything with which to work toward reconciliation?

Respectfully, there's no "onus of blame" being put on anyone. A question was asked. It is a valid question.

The answer to the question posed is: However much weight that they want to give to that advice. That's part of "take what you want/need and leave the rest". Could that weight be incorrect? Sure. Could it be too low? Too high? Sure, and Sure.

This is people that we're dealing with here. By and large we're all very similar, almost the same. But the differences in the "almost" are huge.

Do people learn and grow? Sure. If they want to. We cannot force people to learn and grow. Their circumstances and mindset push them into it.

I had a 'unique' childhood. Could I have stayed unsafe? I certainly could have. I made the decision at the time to be clear and open about my unsafe-ness by not entering into anything other than what could be best described as FWBs. But that cognitive dissonance between the way that I was and the way that other people were started eating me alive.

So, I changed.

I give carefully, gently, worded 2x4s from time to time. I do my best to give them with empathy and understanding because I've been where the Original Poster is (Not OP because according to SI definitions OP is Other Person and we're on SI, not reddit.) I give 2x4s that cause them to think, to consider where they and their spouse are.

If I give advice on the R board I prefix it with "I've never R'ed because either the wandering partner wasn't interested or it did not work out". This particular board is the R board, and it says on the tin that R is supported and encouraged here. I abide by that rule. The advice that I give here is more the "look closer at what you want and what WS wants and see if they really align" type than the "here's how to R/D type".

Frankly, when I give advice in JFO I usually tell the new member that lots of people will comment and some of those are shouting at the movie screen to "Get out! Don't go in the basement!" because that's what they wanted to do, not because that's what they did and they're still hurting. But not everyone gives such advice...

That's all, work beckons.

[This message edited by devotedman at 4:04 PM, Tuesday, November 16th]

Well, HoldingTogether, it struck me as the advice shouldn't have been worded as "this is something a BS should do". I do say things like "I don't recommend reconciling with a sex addict" followed by reasons why. That is basically the same wording. Combine that with a suggestion that changes are coming and I felt the need to get some clarity on whether we were able as members to say something without saying as a caveat "Just for me personally, this is how I handled this thing". I participated in the thread about separation after DDay and I'm sure I threw out thoughts that weren't couched as "this only applies to me", you know? Whether that's right or wrong in anyone's view, I just want to get an idea of what level to which language will or will not be policed. The reason I won't suggest anything about reconciling with a sex addict isn't lack of experience. It's that I don't feel good about helping a BS accept that kind of situation as normal. It feels like gaslighting and lord knows a BS has had enough of that.

I think the point in discussion here is wether or not we, as a community, are taking too rigid a stance in recommending against any BS at all bringing their WS here.

This hasn't been the only point of discussion. I tend to side with BluerThanBlue on this with it being something that should be handled carefully by the BS in question. It requires a lot of thought. I know that lots of WSs can do and be better, but I'm betting it's a lower percentage than most of us would like to think and that's not because they don't all make it to this particular forum. There is a wealth of information on the internet and many many therapists that a WS can seek out if they want to try and recover from this. This place is a part of the world of support for someone who cheated and doesn't want to be that person anymore and it's an important part, but it isn't the only option. My concern first and foremost is for the BS being safe and that very often means that they need to keep this place to themselves until they're ready for their WS to have such insight into what they're going through or as a platform to further abuse them through.The percentage of WSs who would change only from coming here would be significantly lower than the percentage of BSs who would be further harmed by their WS coming here, I'd bet.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 4:36 PM, Tuesday, November 16th]

I think the problem I am seeing here on this thread is that many people seem to think the bar for entry for someone’s WS should be that they are already remorseful, and transparent, and empathetic, and honest, and forthcoming, and…. Basically already fixed.

And that’s ludicrous. That would be like saying someone couldn’t attend an AA meeting until after they had completed the 12 steps. It’s backward. If WS’ already had their shit together they wouldn’t be WS’ in the first fucking place.

This this this.

HoldingTogether,

You wrote this in one post:

I’m thinking this thread seems to be evolving from a simple question of the lack of couples on the site to a general discussion of the relative merits of civility vs. tough love, and exactly when and how "tough love" crosses over into just general assholery. laugh

This later to Dee:

Wow Dee! Seems like kind of a long circuitous trip to go from...

... Did you have to stop for gas and snacks on the way from point A to B there? grin

...Pre-fucking-cisely...

Respectfully, I view the tone of your reply as less than fully civil, but maybe that is not a concern for you. It doesn't bother me personally. I'm just noting how I view it.

I don't observe many BS come here, especially in JFO, and ask, "Give me advice on how to divorce my sex addict WS." or "Give me advice on what I need to do to reconcile with my sex addict WS." Most BS come in shock recounting their situation and asking for any advice. Many BS seem to be asking for multiple viewpoints.

That's just my observation. I don't have any thoughts on the couples here.

The 12 steps premisis is interesting...especially since the onus is on the addict to BE READY. They have to find thier meetings. How is this different?

Respectfully, I view the tone of your reply as less than fully civil,

Wait, are you saying that my comment:

crosses over into just general assholery.

Certainly wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been accused of that.

I appreciate the feedback, and if Dee was offended I wholeheartedly apologize. I would hope that she took my comments in the lighthearted friendly spirit in which they were intended.

I tend to say fuck a lot. Some people read that as angry but for me it’s just punctuation. Ask around, veterans will tell you that that post actually had a much lower "fuck" per minute than my usual average.

HT

The 12 steps premisis is interesting...especially since the onus is on the addict to BE READY. They have to find thier meetings. How is this different?

Yes the addict has to be ready. But often, when they are ready, a friendly brother or sister helps to direct them to a meeting. Often takes them to their first meeting.

I know that was the case for me. And I have seen it play out over and over again.

I knew there was a problem but I wasn’t sure how to go about solving it and I certainly wasn’t ready, at my first meeting, to admit it out loud.

I didn’t even get to step one until my second meeting. And that is not even remotely uncommon.

I think the analogy holds up.

HT

I appreciate the feedback, and if Dee was offended I wholeheartedly apologize. I would hope that she took my comments in the lighthearted friendly spirit in which they were intended.

Nah, it's all good. I wasn't offended.

Yes the addict has to be ready. But often, when they are ready, a friendly brother or sister helps to direct them to a meeting. Often takes them to their first meeting.

I know that was the case for me. And I have seen it play out over and over again.

I knew there was a problem but I wasn’t sure how to go about solving it and I certainly wasn’t ready, at my first meeting, to admit it out loud.

I didn’t even get to step one until my second meeting. And that is not even remotely uncommon.

I think the analogy holds up.

I do have experience in this. My XWH got into drugs via his prostitutes, so the first thing I discovered was the drug problem. I didn't take him by the hand and lead him to a damned thing. I kicked him out within 2 weeks of him coming home high. I informed him we were divorcing. He found rehab all by his lonesome because he wasn't terribly happy with what his life had become. After DDay (discovered all the cheating once he got clean) when I'd tell him I couldn't do this and I needed to leave him, he'd make therapy appointments with his IC (that he found without my help) in a panic and beg me to come with him. I enabled nothing. I directed him to not shit. He, as fucked up as he was and is, managed to do these things without any help from me. I did not find it to be my place to help him become a better human. I reacted to how I was being treated and looked out for my well-being. So maybe a friendly brother or sister would be great for a WS to get help, but that friendly brother or sister doesn't need to be the BS who just got cheated on. The BS is the one in need of care in the aftermath of a DDay.

I am the second half a couple that has been on SI. This thread is a wonderful one full of great insights btw. I asked my BH for his take and why he doesn't post here anymore. He primarily said that while he has a tremendous amount of gratitude to this site for the support, guidance and advice given to him, which he says basically kept him sane and likely saved our M, he noticed a pattern of very harsh voices that were very triggering for him. He was on the receiving end of some of those remarks and always hated it. Very graphic and crude messages about what I did. Now he and I understand that what I did WAS graphic and crude, but he never needed that crammed down his throat. His mind movies and trauma were more than sufficient. But some people felt a need to drive the hot needle through his eye. So he wanted to move on and hanging out in JFO with those visceral messages (he wasn't arguing the importance of 2x4's, just noting they exist), was hurting him rather than helping him. He feels it's healthier for him to not be here.

Yet he shared SI with me. So I joined, posted, got hit over the head publicly, and was eviscerated in PM's. I received messages comparing my BH's penis to the AP's and others calling me every name in the book. I have no idea why I didn't leave. Maybe because I was further along in R? I don't know. Maybe it's because I also received a lot of support and encouragement. I received advice that were directing course corrections and calling out my own BS. Importantly, those 2x4's came from a real place of caring, and not as thinly veiled attacks couched in the guise of asking me a question as others did. So I'm still here, for better or for worse. I don't post too much anymore. And that's probably because I agree with BSR's original post. As a WS, everything you say is scrutinized. A new WS comes here and posts, usually presenting themselves in a very positive light given the circumstances and downplaying what they did. They need voices to basically snap them out of it so they can really fully wake up. Yet there comes a chorus of how horrible they are, they're liars, cheaters, manipulators and beyond redemption. And all of that may be very true!!! But slamming them over the head accomplishes nothing other than making the poster feel better. So they either defend themselves to strangers or leave. And as a regular poster, you welcome a new member, but then they're gone because they were driven off (not willing to do the work - according to others). The truth is new WS's need time. Time to absorb the messages. Time for others to draw out their story and deliver well placed and well meaning 2x4's. Get them to see what they did, the harm they are causing / caused and start them on a path of growth and healing, which will ultimately help their BS - D or R. Provide guidance and support. Start and continue a dialogue. Not coddle. But until that mind shift occurs among those who post in Wayward, I expect we'll see people pop in and then leave when the hammer slams down on them. And so I find myself posting in Fun & Games more than I do in the I Can Relate, Wayward or R forums. And I think that's a shame.

So maybe a friendly brother or sister would be great for a WS to get help, but that friendly brother or sister doesn't need to be the BS who just got cheated on.

Again, I do not believe that anyone here is suggesting that the BS "needs" to do anything. I am certainly not implying that there is any onus on the BS to do anything.

What I am saying, is that if a BS thinks that they might like to share this resource with their WS, why the automatic negative response? Just the very idea of a BS choosing to direct their WS to SI as a resource seems to elicit some pretty strong negative responses and I am wondering if it’s a knee jerk reaction based on people’s own experience rather than a thoughtful evaluation of the individual circumstances.

If there is any place the analogy to 12 step programs breaks down it is this: there is probably literally no one in the western world that is not at least tangentially aware of AA, rehabs, recovery programs and 12 step programs. That shit is ubiquitous. People with addiction problems aren’t going to have much trouble finding them. And when they do find them they will likely be fucking lauded and celebrated for going to them.

(Side note-That is one of the weird things about getting sober. I can’t tell you how often people congratulate me for being sober. Shit always makes me uncomfortable. I mean basically people are congratulating me for stopping being a self destructive asshole. Hurray me! What a hero I am! I realize the intent is kind but it feels weird to me. Can you imagine that response to someone stopping just about any other shitty behavior?- end of tangent)

I think resources for WS’ might be a little harder to find. Resources that include other people who have been there themselves? That have personal experience with exactly the kind of things going through a wayward mind? Even harder to find.

And they certainly aren’t likely to get a whole lot of positive or useful feedback for publicly admitting their behavior and asking others for help. Show me another site on the web that has a protected space for waywards to work out their shit together while holding each others feet to the fire and not tolerating any bullshit.

No, if there is any unicorn in this equation I think it’s SI itself.