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I'd for sure my wife had done "only" FaceTime sex rather than what she did in person.

That said, a FaceTime sex session is a betrayal of high order and any effort to "at least it wasn't" or "but I didn't" is extremely destructive, compounding the original betrayal into the present.

I think the fact you are having to make him own things rather than him becoming accountable on his own that is adding so much insult to injury.

It’s also natural that you would wonder what would happen if you hadn’t caught him but I think a long time affair would maybe be a year or more. But most affairs do not end without one or both being caught and it’s not idicative of anything other than that he was very attached to the Feelings the affair gave him. Notice I didn’t say the other person gave him - because I don’t think most of the time that the other person even matters that much. Most affairs are about self adulation and validation.

I am the ws in our situation (though I did become a bs later) and I have to say I was 100 percent aware I was crossing a boundary everytime things escalated. The texting, the first nude picture, the first phone call, the first FaceTime. I think it’s absolutely a physical affair.

I also can tell you today I know I did not love the AP. I loved who I could pretend to be because the AP didn’t know me well. It takes some digging but your husband needs to figure out why he did this. It has nothing to do with who you are or aren’t or anything that you caused. He needs to go to IC, take accountability, work on himself and show you that he is teachable and willing to do whatever is needed to prove he is interested in being a safe and loyal partner moving forward.

What he broke won’t be fixed overnight. But he has to fully understand what he broke, why he broke it and lead the effort to make it as right as he possibly can. Otherwise you will find it hard to heal in his presence, and you may need to make plans to leave so you can find peace.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:15 PM, Saturday, March 12th]

WiseoldFool,

That said, a FaceTime sex session is a betrayal of high order and any effort to "at least it wasn't" or "but I didn't" is extremely destructive, compounding the original betrayal into the present.

Thanks for your insight … I can totally understand how you feel about in person sex . I would be as or even more devastated if it includes in person sex but when I saw how vivid and close up FaceTime sex is … my heart was just torn to pieces . Yes , the minimizing is one stumbling block why my healing takes time .
During the whole 5.5 months A, he did not even touch me or have sex with me. He was so preoccupied or tired with his video sex and it was the loneliest time I have had experienced in my life. He was so distant and I felt so abandoned without knowing why .. I trusted him too much and he was a sneak in the first order . It was also very convenient that he did it all in our home every time he has the urge, without traveling anywhere .
It is true , not only what he did but how he deals with the why and what after the A is heart breaking and frustrating .

hikingout,

I think the fact you are having to make him own things rather than him becoming accountable on his own that is adding so much insult to injury.

This has been so frustrating . I still need to ask and discuss for hours before he answers my questions about some aspects of the why , when and what .
One answer could take hours!
Other then not willing to answer questions , he really works on making him a better and safe person . He maintains NC , wrote a NC letter 2 days after discovery, tells me he still love me , kind and loving ( he used to be kind and loving before his A but very distant during the A). He is remorseful of what he did and how he could not believe he betrayed me with her . He feels disgusted of what he did and even hate the AP for being aggressive. My WH told me how aggressive and controlling the AP was and did not even give him time to think how he cheated on his wife or thought of me. She overwhelmed him but eventually, he made the decision to have the A .

I am the ws in our situation (though I did become a bs later) and I have to say I was 100 percent aware I was crossing a boundary everytime things escalated. The texting, the first nude picture, the first phone call, the first FaceTime. I think it’s absolutely a physical affair.

I have no doubt it was a physical affair . He eventually admitted it after many months of denial.

As a previous WS, could you give me a better insight of why he was so reluctant to answer my questions regarding his feelings towards her and me , during the A ? He tells me that he is afraid to cause me more pain if I know about the deeper aspects of their A or his previous feelings towards her. In fact, it hurts me more not knowing although my gut feeling tells me that LIMERENCE was part of it . I really appreciate getting some knowledge of why he is still so reluctant, from someone that experienced the pain of betraying a BS . I need to understand his side, I am feeling lost. I am grateful for your insight, advice and support.

His reluctance to answer is self
Preservation. He is Afraid basically. He doesn’t want to admit to himself how bad what he did was, and he believes at any moment one of the details may be the dealbreaker for you. He wants to minimize it because he wants you to still believe he is a good person. He is also afraid that what he says will lead to more questions and more conclusions.

He needs to realize nothing will heal until he can be completely truthful and it’s you and himself. That secrets can’t remain.

During the whole 5.5 months A, he did not even touch me or have sex with me. He was so preoccupied or tired with his video sex and it was the loneliest time I have had experienced in my life. He was so distant and I felt so abandoned without knowing why .

My WW’s affair was much longer than that - some of it "virtual" and a lot of it in person - but for a portion of it she did the same thing (inflicted celibacy) to me.

Knowing years later why she did that to me makes the cruelty of doing it worse. She did it to me and for him. It’s an awful feeling.

Hikingout,

His reluctance to answer is self
Preservation. He is Afraid basically. He doesn’t want to admit to himself how bad what he did was, and he believes at any moment one of the details may be the dealbreaker for you. He wants to minimize it because he wants you to still believe he is a good person. He is also afraid that what he says will lead to more questions and more conclusions.

Thank you !

WiseoldFool,

Knowing years later why she did that to me makes the cruelty of doing it worse. She did it to me and for him. It’s an awful feeling.

Other than some reluctance to answer my deeper questions, my WS has been doing everything to make me feel loved and becomes a safe partner again . The hysterical bonding is there too but the knowledge of how he abandoned me and how he was so emotionally overwhelmed by the MOW during the A, still gives me occasional mild triggers during the love making . Our new memories still can not erase the sad and horrible memories I have about them . I still feel like and outsider looking in whenever the mind movies play again.
I am hoping that my brain will keep on overwriting those painful memories day by day .

In response to the original question: I can't really say which is more intimate. My husband had physical sex with his AP - he never had FaceTime sex. That said, both acts obviously cross an enormous intimacy boundary in most marriages. Neither act should be minimized. I don't believe in comparing pain. No one wins a prize for having been on the receiving end of the biggest betrayal.

You should not have to justify your hurt to your spouse. There should be no minimization of his acts - full stop. "At least I didn't....." should be struck from his vocabulary. That is the real issue here.

I'm sorry you're hurting.

I think the discussion has gone to the heart of the issue, his taking full accountability and proactively trying to make himself safe and help to heal you. It sounds like he is making an effort at least.

As to the initial question, I find it an interesting one. I have never done it, so I am only guessing. I can see it would rely on fantasy, as people have said. I think there could be a relief for many BS that it wasn't in person and I feel that way. But I also think that sharing a fantasy is an intimate act. I am assuming there may be a lot of talking during virtual, mutual masturbation like that? If that's correct, there is a possibility that it could be more intimate, in some ways, then meeting in a hotel for casual sex. The mind may be more engaged virtually because, well, you aren't getting the physical from the other person. So something has to be happening to get you where you need to be and it might be an intimate sharing of fantasy, 'dirty' talk etc?

I think I'd be quite relieved that it was never in person as that is a difficult hurdle to get over. But thinking about the dynamics of it, it ranks right up there as a significant betrayal.

Other than being nice to you, and more loving, can you tell us exactly what work he is doing on himself to be safe again?

It's nice that he's being nice and loving,but that's something all spouses should be toward each other.

Thank you all for the support . It really helps since there are still a lot of dark days for me .

You should not have to justify your hurt to your spouse. There should be no minimization of his acts - full stop. "At least I didn't....." should be struck from his vocabulary. That is the real issue here.

I agree , the intention for having sex with the AP was still there either virtual or in person and causing me as much pain but he stopped minimizing it lately , which I think is a good sign .

I am just still hurting a lot , still a lot of pain , anger and feeling stuck. I still cry a lot and still endure flashbacks and triggers . Sometimes I feel that he is my trigger . I still can not believe the man I married was capable in doing such act of betrayal and to me, his affair was an EA and PA.

The intense daily chat and FaceTime for 5.5 months with the AP, made the virtual sex much more intimate and meaningful. They did virtually because of Covid and the distance. I have no doubt they would have had real sex if they could meet. They already planned to meet when Covid is over.

I think the discussion has gone to the heart of the issue, his taking full accountability and proactively trying to make himself safe and help to heal you. It sounds like he is making an effort at least.

Yes, at least he is trying to make an effort to heal me with NC, blocked her phone , her social media and open to his phone access . He is getting better in answering my questions but still reluctant to admit his deeper feelings, never start any conversations regarding the A , never look for articles and not interested in reading books. It is my gut feeling that inside , he is not that remorseful yet . I wonder if remorse comes slowly .

I am assuming there may be a lot of talking during virtual, mutual masturbation like that? If that's correct, there is a possibility that it could be more intimate, in some ways, then meeting in a hotel for casual sex.

With their deep emotional attachments , I always feel that their virtual sex was just as or more intimate than the real thing before, during and after the act . I am thinking of dirty and love talk which were probably more emphasized during virtual sex. He deleted all chat so I only rely on what he told me . I feel so much like an outsider when he told me the things they talked about . They were casual college friends and met again after their virtual college reunion during Covid . They had a lot in common professionally, a lot to talk and discuss and the E and P intimacy to me, is high up there. To me, the emotional attachment made the virtual sex as intimate as in person sex for my WH.

Other than being nice to you, and more loving, can you tell us exactly what work he is doing on himself to be safe again?

That is the thing . Other than NC, open to all phone and laptop access , being nice and attentive , there is still something missing , his real feelings towards me and the AP, I still do not feel his remorse. Should this be enough? We are taking a break from IC and even the therapist admitted , she could not get inside his deeper inner thought . He was not open.

Should I accept a platonic love ? Is he pretending to be in the marriage he is not interested in ? He said he still love me but he gets defensive when I ask about his feelings towards her . Why defensive ? He just tells me that he is not into her anymore and has been in no contact for 7 months after dday2. He was still in EA for 4 months after dday1 before he decided to really NC . He admitted about his PA after we went to IC.

He told me that he is over with her but he is still private about his A. I always feel that as long as he is still keeping it a secret on what happened during the A other than the masturbations, he is still protecting his A and I am still feeling like an outsider and do not feel safe.

[This message edited by Lostwings at 6:51 AM, Tuesday, March 22nd]

The only reason it wasn't full on live monkey sex is that they're separated by a great distance.
They're doing the best they can to work with what they've got. They're building it all up for when they do meet up.

It goes without saying that these episodes are a mortal blow to anything that sounds like "the two of you". It's now "the two of them".

No,it's not enough. By far.

Not talking to the AP, and giving you all his passwords,aren't enough. Those are the very basic things a WS should do,immediately after dday. He isn't working on himself at all. There's no digging deep. He is open in IC. He is still a very unsafe partner.

[This message edited by HellFire at 7:43 PM, Monday, March 21st]

Not talking to the AP, and giving you all his passwords,aren't enough. Those are the very basic things a WS should do,immediately after dday

Yes, I am aware of this . Just a few weeks ago he started to tell me that he enjoyed being admired and desired by the AP. ..a validation for him !
He is a generous person in personality and has that knight in shining armor ( KISA?) attitude . A lot of his colleagues know about it and respectfully appreciate but his AP probably never had that attention before, she went crazy telling him how she was so touched by him, being attentive to her , how she wanted to be his close friend and missed him everyday and the L words started popping up. The rest is history .
At least , he is starting to dig deep into the why and how. Just how much and how serious he is digging, still needs to be seen … I still do not see genuine remorse .
Gently , are some men more emotionally retarded? How could he be an affectionate person but not much emotion in remorse department ?

In our early relationship , I felt special for his attentions which were genuine … but later I realized , he was the one special person , not me because he is an affectionate person and treats a lot of people that way … maybe this is a trait of a WS. I believe this was the only affair he has . Not because he was faithful , but because people respect our marriage.
I still have hope that he will slowly gets better in rebuilding our destroyed marriage .

The only reason it wasn't full on live monkey sex is that they're separated by a great distance.
They're doing the best they can to work with what they've got. They're building it all up for when they do meet up

Yes and it really broke my heart . I always believe that their virtual sex was more like a foreplay .

Yeah. He is trying to control the narrative and outcome.
He needs to own what he did and how it is making you feel. It isn't wrong for you to feel facetime sex is just like real sex.
I would prefer real sex over facetime sex, but that is like someone saying, "I only got a BJ and never made eye contact. So it wasn't full on PIV." That is stupid positioning. Trying to pull back layers to win brownie points when that was not why he chose that method over real sex. He knew it would hurt you are did it. That is the discussion. Why he doesn't it is the next.
Good luck and sorry, my wife tried to pull this crap too. "At least I didn't really know the guy(s). It could be like our friend's affair where she screwed his best friend." I just looked at her and said, "So you shot me with a handgun instead of a cannon. Thank you! The hand gun really showed you cared." She stopped trying to say such stupid things.

Just how much and how serious he is digging, still needs to be seen … I still do not see genuine remorse .

Real remorse isn't hard to recognize. If you're not seeing it, than it's not likely there. What motivates a cheater to change is when they've hit a kind of emotional rock bottom, when they're just so sorry and they can't stand the guy in the mirror for another day. If you get a copy of How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair by Linda McDonald, you can take a look at what "successful rebuilders" are doing and then compare it what you're seeing from your WS. Some of the things you've mentioned are pretty concerning though. Is he an "affectionate person"?.. or is he "love-bombing" you. I think just as a precaution you'd be wise to study up a bit on narcissism and covert narcissism. On and off love-bombing in narcs is eventually followed up by discard when they can no longer extract enough value from you. Not saying that's what you're dealing with, but I'm seeing some red flags.

I do think it seems to be pretty typical that a BS will not disclose things for all the reasons people like Hikingout have shared. And there is a lot of advice from people not to disclose details, even counselors tell people that. One approach I have read multiple times is to describe the situation as a puzzle. Your WH has all the pieces and so does the AP. You however, only have half the pieces. Without all the pieces two things are happening: 1) there is an intimacy that remains between WH and AP 2) you do not have everything you need to heal because you don't know what it is you are healing from & your mind fills in the blanks but you are not sure it is accurate.

But it sounds like your WH, while making some effort, is not doing the deeper reflection that would accelerate his progress at becoming safe for the marriage and helping to heal you. The Helping Your Spouse Heal After the Affair book someone just recommended would be a good place to start for his reading journey. Some people do not think you should have to coach the WS but I think that is wrong. You don't have to lower your expectations or do everything for him but making some firm suggestions based on advice from here in what he can do for you may be what he needs. Who knows what sites he has read and what they have recommended? There's lots of poor advice out there. Tell him to buy the book and that both of you are going to read it. Non-negotiable. That might be a new way to approach your healing.

Thank you to Doinbetter, Chamomile Tea and Trdd,

I just looked at her and said, "So you shot me with a handgun instead of a cannon. Thank you! The hand gun really showed you cared."

I almost chuckled when I read this! True , funny and sad …

If you get a copy of How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair by Linda McDonald, you can take a look at what "successful rebuilders" are doing and then compare it what you're seeing from your WS.

This is the first book we read 7 months ago ( of course I bought it for him ). I need to revisit .. I also got Not just Friends and he has been reading I Love You but I Am Not In Love with You .. he has been reading it for months and the book is still lying on the sofa , half read ….This little gestures made me feel as of he is not working seriously enough to safe this marriage . Since he deleted all the texts with the AP, I got nothing regarding what where and how during their A and he promised to write a time line and some narrations on the important occasions during the A. It has been months and I still need to see them .
He is open to most questions down to the embarrassing details but he was still reluctant to talk about his feelings towards the AP and gave me vague answers about the why, how and what and the seriousness of their relationship .

I came down to the conclusion that he just wanted to do it because he is broken , has no integrity and commitment towards our M and I think that he had feelings towards the AP but reluctant to admit . How can someone who chatted from morning till bed time everyday for 5.5 months had no feelings whatsoever ? Why the secrecy ?

He is also reluctant to tell me what he needs in this marriage and following your suggestions I read and found out that he has several traits of a Covert Narcissist. He is the knight in Shining Armor because he likes the admirations and affections people give him and wants to feel desirable . He is a people pleaser but has no empathy because of his traits. Gently, I might be wrong but I think all cheaters have no empathy during the A because they become selfish during that time . Any input from WS?

He might be a true affectionate person, he likes making morning cup of coffee for me and maybe I need to show my appreciations more. After doing it for years , maybe I started to take him for granted , and he started to miss all the affectionate thank you, but he should have discussed it with me , instead, he looked for outside validations and he got it from his AP who told him frequently, how grateful she is for their close friendship, EA and PA relationship and asking him to be friends forever . His KISA fulfilled .
No, he does not love bomb me since he has been doing his affectionate things for years , but I do the same things for him too , taking care of his daily needs. I do not get the thank you anymore either since it is a routine and I do not even think of looking for outside validations ! It is more like a team work for me .

His AP does not have affectionate relationship with her husband ( or so she said ), she was touched by my WH affections and I think she became dependent emotionally to him .
But how about me ? I remember when he worked 2 days a week at the office during Covid, starting in January last year. I was so lonely and cold, the streets were empty due to lockdown , alone at home ( our children are adults and I am retired ), waiting for him to get home and he was busy chatting away with the AP during his lunch hour , not even asking me how I was doing. …This hurts .
At least he calls me from the office whenever he does not work from home nowadays and reporting where he is, several times a day.

I do think it seems to be pretty typical that a BS will not disclose things for all the reasons people like Hikingout have shared.

Yes, I am beginning to come to terms , trying to see that not putting the efforts to research or read books is because he might be depressed as well .

Of course I have my good and bad days still. Personality wise, I am like Whatisliveanyway and Grieving , very connected and commited to our marriage , with a little Romanticism thrown in , feeling like love and marriage is forever, just the two of us . But he is not me ! … It is so hard to rebuild from the ashes because I have so much good memories and always think that we did have a great love and a happy marriage,… until I accidentally read the AP phone text … and suddenly my world just fell apart . On a hind sight , I realized that we stopped having sex the moment he started the affair and I thought it was the stress during Covid and work from home etc.

I need to emphasize that he still have NC and told me several time that to him now, she is dead, gone. I should probably take it as his remorse …
I try to remember what he said about her being dead to him emotionally, when I am feeling low .

I need to be patient I guess . Healing takes at least 2 years ? My dday#2 was 7 months ago … seems like the pain is forever but hoping to heal slowly .
God bless !

Gently, I might be wrong but I think all cheaters have no empathy during the A because they become selfish during that time .

I basically agree with this. Not a WS myself, but part of the internal rationalization or compartmentalization is ignoring the damage you are doing to the BS. It's a necessary activity for almost all WS's because they can't imagine themselves as the bad guy. So you get typical blameshifting and minimization before the A is ever revealed. This creates the empathy gap necessary for cheating on someone.