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My WW and I had another MC session last night. DDay was in April, she had a multi-year affair in the 2005-2010ish timeframe, and the truth has been trickling out. She's so nervous and unstable that to get her to reveal anything requires me to keep my cool and to encourage her - and then act thankful that she revealed something. [Note I'm looking for a new MC, but that's taking some time]

On the inside every little revelation turns my insides upside down. I feel the need to keep the truth coming out - but if I yell or rage it'll slow from a trickle to nothing. I find myself saying things like 'thank you, this is upsetting for me to hear, but it's even harder for me to have only my imagination to rely on, I appreciate you opening up'. Whereas I want to scream "How could you?! You [swear words]!".

I'm hoping a new MC will help. Have others felt this way? How did you handle it? I'm still aiming towards reconciliation - but this is hard.

<Paddling>

"Please sir, may I have another"

Complete, written timeline is the generally agreed upon way to stop trickle truth. Optionally, polygraph to confirm completeness and accuracy.

You need to stop being so nice,and supportive.

You need to show her that anger.

You need to lay out requirements for you to CONSIDER reconciliation. One of them being no more lies,and another being a complete timeline that WILL be checked with a polygraph.

Trickle truth is just a pretty way of saying continued lies and abuse.

You're a nice guy. She's taking full advantage of that.

This is bot reconciliation. Nowhere near it.

I have been there, done that, and still do that. You are in good company. Honestly, it takes a huge amount of control and strength to do it. As a recommendation, get yourself an IC. Seriously! That way you have a place where someone is not just holding space for you, but can help you work through your issues.

Also, get her into IC herself. She needs to overcome her own weaknesses. On my case, WW had a father who worked night shifts and was too easy going. Her mom was an emotionally detached ninny who broke her down to feel good about herself. Needless to say, children brought up in that environment tend to be perfectionist who are not attached to their own feelings and more concerned about the end result on the other person. It’s difficult at best! Anger, upset, and any other strong emotions put them over the edge and in fight/flee mode, or legit panic attacks where they don’t even remember what they do.

I still said "How could you, you ****". Sometimes, still do. And, we've been doing pretty good in reconciliation and recovery. My FWH had panic attacks from writing the timeline.....I still made him do it. It took me about a year before I didn't want to punish him for what he did to me even in a pretty good recovery situation.
I'm STILL getting big triggers - though more like once or twice a week or month, if I'm lucky. There has been vast improvement in how we deal with this. It helped me to know that I could always tap out if it was too hard. Somedays, I still think about this. But, I had PTSD before the affair, unrelated to the affair. I'm sorry you're going through this.

I’m sorry for you. I think there is nothing worse than the cheater who refuses to provide info to help you heal.

Another MC? Please don’t.

Maybe instead you need to realize the person you are married to is just an evil person who refuses to help you heal and maybe it’s time to move on.

You don’t have a marriage - to me you are being subjected to a prison sentence.

She gets mad if you YELL? 🤦‍♀️ SMH

My H betrayed me recently. Not an affair but he said he would do something and then did the opposite. I was furious. He heard me talking to my friend about it. And he got mad and yelled at me.

Soooo I told him he wants to yell at me for a situation he caused? That was not going to fly. And if he thought it was a good idea to betray me and then yell at me — I can find somewhere else to live.

And I meant it. You see ny H lied and cheated and stonewalled me during the first affair.

I let him walk all over me. Fortunately I did not allow that after his second affair. He either answered ALL my questions or he was out in the street.

You continue to allow your wife to control
You and the situation and your marriage.

Try a different approach such as she either answers yiur questions immediately or you are leaving. And if she doesn’t, you leave.

Because you are not healing this way. You are allowing yourself to remain stuck. And she has all the power.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 12:52 AM, Saturday, October 8th]

Just a thought:
Consider calmly but firmly separating--in house or out of house until she has written a complete timeline with as much proof as she can find.

That way your aren't yelling...but you are protecting yourself from having to keep thanking her for death by a thousand cuts.

It is calm but sends a clear message that damage has been done, consequences are happening, and you are setting boundaries.

Right now she is controlling the decisions and the narrative.

You can't control her narrative...but you can control yours and you own boundaries.

breaking bad’s suggestion seems spot on to me.

How do you think a new MC would help?

I think an IC for yourself would help more.

None of this works if you're unwilling or unable to set boundaries. It just doesn't work.

I was patient. Supportive. Understanding. Mid life crisis - got it! I Read up on it. Understood how it affects people (not just in 40s or 50s or 60s).

Worst mistake I ever made. I should have told him to get out three months after dday1 when he refused to do anything towards R.

However 6 months after dday1 I made very different choices. Best move I made.

I was not afraid if we D b/c the marriage we had wasn’t a marriage. So either way at least I was getting out from under the black cloud. Best move I made.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 1:56 AM, Saturday, October 15th]

Thank you all for the responses. I’ve had a fairly emotional week, lots of arguments and work at boundary setting. Your responses meant so much to me, even if I didn’t reply quickly. I felt so emotionally drained. I’ve done a decent job standing up for myself more this week, leveraging a lot of advice from my IC - but, WW has tested new boundaries a lot, which has resulted in a lot of arguing. I’m proud that I didn’t let myself give in - but it’s been tough. A common manipulation has been that when I get upset she generally gets more upset back - and it cycles to the point where she could actually try to hurt herself - or worse - suicide. She has had serious attempts in these scenarios. Her IC is actively trying to help as well. Our MC has seen this behavior, and tends to cater to her due to being fearful things could go wrong quickly - which is one of the reasons I’m looking for someone new. I’ve told her that I can’t fall back into the caretaker mode right now, that I’m too angry, and that I deserve to be angry.

This0is0Fine - Thanks! I’m still working on getting a timeline. According to WW, the relationship with AP started inappropriately in 2005, but then transitioned to friendship a few years later (no date given yet). She insists it was an EA - but I’ll be surprised if it wasn’t a PA. AP was originally single, then got serious with someone in 2009, married in 2010 - I believe. WW and AP stayed in communication for at least a few more years it seems before whatever their relationship was fizzled out. The timeline is one of the things I’m angry about. I need more clarity. She has memory issues due to previous ECT - but I don’t believe she doesn’t know more.

HellFire - I’m working on requirements. Definitely the timeline and no more lies. I’m having her read the HTHYSHFTA book, which I only read this week, and wish I had read earlier. I’m also working with my IC on doing a better job with boundaries. This is a struggle for me - as I’m also her caretaker due to her mental health problems. Over time proper boundaries were eroded to be non-existent, but I’m working on building them up again.

veryconfused. Thanks for the feedback. You’re right, it does take a huge amount of control and strength. I have been working with an IC, who has been very helpful. I meet with her the day before MC sessions to help me prepare. My WW’s parents certainly have played a role in the relationship problems we’re dealing with. I guess mine have as well - in a different way.

Ladybugmaam. I think I’ll need to push WW through panic attacks as well. I also have PTSD from before the affair - due to her bipolar/borderline issues. In a way - there is a silver lining to finding out about the affair - it’s forcing me to re-examine our relationship and focus on my own well-being (which I’ve largely ignored for years). The triggers are tough - anything from the early years of our marriage and when our children were born are a big trigger (note - I did do paternity tests - thank God they are mine). It seems every show my kids watch has someone dealing with an affair. I’m sure it’s always been that way and I’m just super-sensitive to that right now.

The1stWife. Thank you so much for sharing. You’re hitting on a lot of my reality. I’ve had a lot of intense arguing this week - mostly due to trying to set better boundaries, and not allowing her to walk all over me - which I have done plenty of in the past. She seems genuinely scared of me leaving with the kids - but I’m not sure if it is enough to get results. I hope to learn more in MC tonight. Getting her to move in with her parents may be a good option if nothing changes quickly.

BreakingBad - a few months ago I placed a spare bed in the nook of a playroom which is where I’ve been sleeping, and I put up a temporary door (the room has a wide opening). I’ve been using this room as my daytime remote work office. I’m looking at installing a more permanent door so this can really be used like a spare bedroom. I’ve told WW I’m not returning to our bedroom until we’re at a better place, under certain conditions. You’re so very right about the boundaries, and the narrative. I’m working with my IC to help there, but it’s admittedly been tough to split the angry husband role with the mental health caregiver role I also play. I can’t afford us to be in two different houses right now. Though I have talked with WW about visiting her parents for a few weeks on the other side of the country to give me some space. Having her move there for a longer time might make sense if she can't start working with me.

HardKnocks - I am exploring changing MCs mainly due to the MC lets WW divert the conversation and doesn’t keep her accountable - so it feels like it’s become an extension of WWs personal IC. I hate the idea of investing more time getting a different MC up to speed - but I feel like the MC is a ‘that’s interesting, tell me more about that’ type of therapist - and isn’t really facilitating or driving us in a direction. To be fair - it has to be a struggle for the MC to deal with WW’s mental health issues.

Thanks to everyone again for sharing. I’m sorry that everyone had situations that led them here, but I am really thankful that you’re sharing. Outside of IC and MC, I am not talking to anyone about the affair. It certainly can feel lonely. Your thoughts are helpful.

[This message edited by hurtpartner73 at 3:00 PM, Friday, October 14th]

Not all marriages can..or should be..reconciled.

Do you really want to continue to be a caretaker of someone who has shown very little care for you?

The next time she makes a suicide threat,call 911. First, it's what you should do when someone makes that threat. And,second,if she is using it to manipulate you, she won't be so quick to use that threat again.

Hellfire, You're right. And I've had her hospitalized dozens of time in the last dozen years. But I've never done it to call her bluff - which may make sense. I'm constantly conflicted on what to do next. I feel like I need to try to create a better relationship, with the acceptance that it may not be possible. I know that I've been a part of the problem because I've enabled WW's behavior for too long. I lost boundaries and a sense of self. I'm new to IC and MC, and I'm learning a lot to help myself. My hope is that I create a clear vision of what our marriage needs to become in order for me to reconcile. And if that can happen I go forward. But - if it doesn't, I know we may need to split. I'm preparing for that outcome as well, but I'm hoping (maybe in vain) for the first. I've told her that our old marriage is over, and I'll never wear that ring again. If we can form a new marriage that meets both of our needs (and the kids) I'll explore that. But you're right - it may not be realistic.

A common manipulation has been that when I get upset she generally gets more upset back - and it cycles to the point where she could actually try to hurt herself - or worse - suicide. She has had serious attempts in these scenarios

Cheating is a supremely self-centered action.

It seems like your WW is continuing this pattern of self-centeredness even as you two are supposed to be working to heal:

You set boundaries; she pushes the boundaries (in other words, does what she wants=self-centered)

You call her out on the boundary-pushing; she ramps up and becomes more emotional than you and threatens self-harm--again bringing the focus back to herself.

You've admitted that you have been so much in the role of caretaker with her that you've lost yourself and only recently have set better boundaries.

Please keep evaluating if it's worth it.

You can't do the work to heal yourself and drag her through the work to heal herself and the relationship. I'm not saying you shouldn't do that work. You can't. Because it doesn't fix anything. If she's not willingly engaged in her own work and willing to consistently act in ways that demonstrate to you that she's safe, then she's not a safe partner.

Her tendency to bring focus back to herself demonstrates an ongoing self-focus that indicates she isn't safe as a partner and isn't becoming one.

When the work wasn't happening in a consistent, self-driven way from my fWH, I really started to weigh whether he wasn't willing or whether he wasn't able to do the work that needed to happen to rebuild trust. Ultimately, I decided it didn't matter if it was a lack of will or ability. The end result was that the work wasn't happening, and that would result in our relationship being unable to heal to a point that I could tolerate.

(BTW, my fWH is doing more consistent, self-driven work now...but I'm still in wait-and-see-if-this-lasts mode for now.)

Wishing you well in thos difficult journey!

She’s doing what works. Because she gets away without having to do the work or provide the information or details that were requested.

It will continue as long as she gets what she wants and it works.

When you refuse to engage in her drama and allow her to continue to manipulate situations, maybe then it will stop.

If not, it’s time to make some tough decisions.

I have a son who plays this game. If I say you owe me $2 he will argue that it’s not $2. It’s $2.50. This way he throws you off track and avoids the real point of the conversation.

I once asked him to make a phone call. He refused. He tried to stonewall and gaslight and protest. 45 minutes of me saying "just pick up the phone and call. I’m not discussing anything else here."

He finally realized it wasn’t going to work and he made the damn call.

Next time he tried to manipulate and avoid the topic I just told him "not playing this game". That ended it.

Very few relationships survive infidelity in and really meaningful way. I think something like 70% end by the five year mark, which is the time it generally takes for the BS to heal and get stable enough to really consider what they want and need in a partner. Of thecremaing 30%, how many culd be considered strong or good? It really sounds like you are in a toxic relationship here. It is very one-sided. Your WW seems to be the only one benefitting here, as she does not bring anything of note to the table.

I think you need to remove as many variables as you can in order to begin to detox from the situation, so you can think more clearly. Since you cannot afford a second place, try to separate as much as possible. Quit MC, as shecseems to be leveraging the appointments against you. It almost reads as a two against one scenario. Work on yourselves separately. Next, it isva goid idea to get your WW to visit her parents. I would suggest it be several months and only after full disclosure to them. That way thevcards are on the table. If that xant happen, your WW should be sleeping in the nook, not you. If the roles were reversed, I'm certain you would have offered to sleep somewhere else out of a sense of contrition. Rhetorical fact she did not offer is very telling, but fully in step with her character I'd say. Don't ask her, tell her. If she is going to act like a child, the treat her like one. If she threatens self harm, call 911. She is no longer your responsibility. You cannot playbthe role of caregive and trauma victim, especially as she is the perpetrator. She abdicated her favored position as your wife by stepping out of the marriage and unilaterally dissolving the contract you both agreed to. Now you are operating without the "better/worse, sickness/health" clause protecting her. If she wants that again, she must demonstrate that she has become worthy of it. If not, bounce...

I was in a one-sided, toxic M with a woman who is a taker. I was happy to give as I saw that as my sacred role as husband and father. She did not appreciate me, but was fully inclined to take advantage of the situation. It wasn't until I stepped away from the M that I truly started healing. Once in my own space , no longer around my source of trauma, I began to see things more clearly. Let me tell you, I had many WTF level epiphanies. I realized that the woman I loved was a character, but the woman I married was the actor.

A few thought....

1) You are not qualified to help your W through suicide ideation. If she threatens to kill herself, it's crucial for both of you that you call 911.

2) WRT yelling, feelings often resolve better by doing something physical, so yelling is by no means bad. At the same time, what you yell is important.

Swearing at her, calling her names, pointing out her failures don't really help a lot of people beyong some beneficial physicality.

Yelling something like, 'I furious that you did _____' tends to release anger. It's a statement about what you're feeling. There isn;t much she can do about it.

3) You know your boundaries are about you, right. You set your boundaries and your consequences. If someone crosses your limit, you decide how to handle it.

Consider the difference between 'You will not do ____' and 'If you do ____, I will do ____.' The first is about her and is likely to evoke a rebellious response. The 2nd is about you and what you will do.

From what you write, my guess is that your W may rebel against anything and everything. I recommend setting a boundary like, 'If you don't deal with issues I raise in a manner I think is calm, I will leave the room.' My reco is to short-circuit her escalations with that sort of boundary.

4) Why are you supporting TT? TT is unhealthy for both of you. Coming clean is healthy. You don't control your W, so you can't force her to come clean, but you can say something like, 'I'm going to keep asking, 'What else?' The more TT you give me, the closer I come to D.'

BreakingBad - Thanks. I feel like I'm constantly evaluating if it's worth it. I think on any given day I'm in both camps. I'm so angry and tired. I don't trust my own judgement because I've been so ridiculously blind. Feedback from IC helps act as a safety net. I'm trying to lay out what I need for me to consider a feasible marriage. Boundaries are the first big step that I'm working on - and hopefully that adds more clarity to me.

You can't do the work to heal yourself and drag her through the work to heal herself and the relationship. I'm not saying you shouldn't do that work. You can't. Because it doesn't fix anything. If she's not willingly engaged in her own work and willing to consistently act in ways that demonstrate to you that she's safe, then she's not a safe partner.

I appreciate what you said about not being able to drag her through the work to heal herself. I get caught up in that trap - but I know better. Thank you for the well wishes, and to you as well.

The1stWife. You're so right. Over the years I've enabled her drama to win any argument. It has worked for her for years. One time in an argument she chugged a whole bottle of pills in front of me just out of spite. That was many years ago - during the time of her affair - but I let actions like that erode my boundaries to nothingness.

I'm not going to stand for a one-way relationship anymore. But I know that means some more difficult times ahead. Quite honestly - I'll need to get good at boundaries even if R doesn't work.

Justsomeguy - I'm sorry to hear about what you went through. You are right that it has been a toxic relationship. If there's one thing I'm thankful about DDay is that it's helped me realize I can have other options than just surviving - that I need to be my own person and not just her support. Ironically she has offered to sleep in the nook - but, with all her meds she is on she sleeps until late morning every day - and I like to work in the same room as the nook. Also - I like her using the bedroom in that if she's having a mental health episode it's more distanced from the common areas and the kids.

sisoon - The suicide stuff is tough. You're right in that I'm not qualified. Not even close. I've called 911 many times. I've called crisis hotlines, her IC, etc. Where I live you first go through ER, get tested for drugs/alcohol, see a psychiatrist/counsellor, then get recommended for being admitted. But - sometimes they are easily fooled, or she's calmed down after a while, or the ER is busy and moving too quickly and assume it's not a real danger - even though she has a long track record of real attempts. One week I had to bring her in three different days in a row before they allowed her to be admitted. So whether I like it or not I'm usually the first line of defense. I call in backup quickly - but where it goes from there could be dicey.

Yelling something like, 'I furious that you did _____' tends to release anger. It's a statement about what you're feeling. There isn;t much she can do about it.

I really like how you phrase statements in an argument. I'm going to adopt that.

If you don't deal with issues I raise in a manner I think is calm, I will leave the room.

I really like this idea for setting boundaries. I didn't clue into boundary issues until after DDay, when I started IC. I had let the boundaries erode, I gave up and went into survival mode. I gave up on myself. It's a hard pit to crawl out of. Intellectually it seems easy, but I'm constantly evaluating how I'm reacting to situations to help ensure I'm keeping boundaries. I'm getting better at this, but it's not natural for me yet.

For TT - I don't know how to get around this. I've been so angry about this lately, at home, and in MC. She claims it's due to memory loss due to ECT, or maybe memory loss due to stress, lithium, and episodes. There's some truth there and plenty of fiction I suspect. For years since her ECT in 2012 she has exhibited these same memory issues - having lost many memories of our kids when they were younger - so it's possible. But - I feel confident that she's still holding back. I've used language like the longer it takes for you to be truthful the less likely it is we can rebuild any type of marriage. In MC last night I said that if we don't get through this it is not because of the affair, but because of her inability to be open, truthful, and work with me after the affair's discovery. I'll continue to keep pushing - but it may be that ultimatum's are the only way to get through TT.

Thank you all for sharing.

She seems genuinely scared of me leaving with the kids - but I’m not sure if it is enough to get results. I

I would like to suggest that this should not be your goal. If you leave you are leaving it’s not to get her to stop her selfish behavior. You are leaving b/c you do not want to be subjected to her behavior any longer. If she stops being a manipulative person, that’s great. If she doesn’t that’s ok too.

Because you are not Going to live with it b/c you are not living with her.

You are out of her web so to speak.

You have my deepest sympathy WRT the suicide threats. Every one of them has to be treated seriously. When they come fast and furiously ... well, I can't imagine that. Your W looks like she's much more troubled than the average WS.

Be kind to yourself. Remember that at least one person thinks your recovery problem is a lot bigger than most of us have to deal with - and what most of have to deal with is tough enough.