SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

PrettyLies,

I never intended for my post to be a "gotcha", there wasn't any "digging". I'm sorry it came off that way.
I spend quite a lot of time on this website and read everyone's backstory. I want to learn about the effects of infidelity as much as possible, and reading everyone's stories and process over time helps with that.

This was just an exercise for me to discuss values, how we betray them (again, some more than others - I betrayed my values and my BS to an egregious degree) and how we can make changes moving forward. I felt like a hypocrite at the beginning of my journey, because I had betrayed the values of honesty and fidelity, and thought I didn't have the right to believe in those values anymore. But through introspection, I realized that doesn't help anyone, just impedes growth. These need to be strong values of mine to rebuild integrity and ensure I never hurt anyone again. I had to learn that accepting the past does not mean I am justifying or approving of the past. I got stuck there.

Perhaps I'm not far enough into my journey to adequately explain my thoughts or processes, and I need to continue reading on SI before contributing.

Thank you to everyone else in this thread that shared their thoughts, particularly hikingout, Unhinged, BraveSirRobin, and InkHulk. I am grateful for your input and will ponder your thoughts here.

-Heartbroken

I understand what you are saying, ghostie. The way people do talk about ws here is very scalding for a new ws. But they do not mean it personally towards you either. Brave sir Robin and I railed a lot against this at one point in time- but this place at that time had more traffic and that meant we had some people that could be downright hateful at times. And I suppose if you look at what some people write, and haven’t had time to heal, it may still somewhat resemble that. It’s very difficult to come to a forum and be vulnerable in a place where you read a lot of visceral posts and find that no one is on a ws’s side in their responses.

I eventually started using some of it. And what I couldn’t use, I learned to skip over certain people’s posts for self preservation.

You are just not going to educate people on how to support a ws when many of them are struggling with their own.

And i relate to being hit on before. Having opportunities. I traveled for work for 15 years in a male dominated industry. It was especially bad at trade shows for some reason. I remember there was a guy that was at a dinner with us who was telling us how he just proposed to his girlfriend, recounting it in detail, while trying to rub my leg under the table.

I was vulnerable though the one time I took someone up on the attention. I was having extreme burnout over how I had been managing life at that time. And I wasn’t looking for an affair but I did know very shortly into the trip that I was enjoying the attention and seeking it more.

I am glad you tell the truth when you say "he probably would not have shown up" as the reason it would have ended. However, what if he had?

For me by the time the next trip went down it was a foregone conclusion. Though I did duck when he first tried to kiss me, I soon pushed on.

Why? Because I wasn’t able to let that attention end. I needed it deeply. I honestly had a hard time coming off the affair feelings because when you are depressed it’s like an instant hit of dopamine. And I am not saying this happened to you, but you sort of get addicted to it.

The momentum keeps raising the stakes because you keep seeking the feeling.

So I fully understand how the slippery slope goes and how some people who think they never would, will. But inks right, this isn’t the audience. Most of these people’s spouses did have a big ole physical affair, some trickle truthed them, and many haven’t done the work to get themselves straightened out. They are deeply in pain, their marriage is in their lowest state. They aren’t going to induce that hell on anyone. When I cheated, I had no idea the trauma I was about to pour in my husband. Movies and shows make it seem like a whirlwind thing and the aftermath is only briefly visited, if at all. But once you have an experience with it, it’s with the full knowledge of what that means. A lot of people thought I should not reconcile with my husband because of that.

It’s sort of like trying to debate politics on social media, you don’t end up changing people’s minds very often. Especially on a topic that has so adversely affected them. I will also say we tend to have a much older audience in here than other forums so they are in their fifties, sixties, etc. I think no if you make it that far in life in a marriage you haven’t cheated the propensity isn’t strong. It’s very weak when then you add they have been burned by it.

When I finally stopped reacting to it, I think eventually for me it helped me assure myself of things that weren’t true which sometimes as helpful as finding the things that are. It can be intense sometimes for sure and I acknowledge your feelings and hear you on that.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:24 PM, Tuesday, December 2nd]

There are several things in that post that are examples of how my thinking "avoid the problem by avoiding the situation" works for me. It is not that I think that I am so infallible that I feel like I can "walk to the line" without crossing it, it is that I am mindful to avoid certain situations in the first place. Like chatting for hours and hours with a man, getting to know each other or "making a friend".

Just because I am very aware that that is how many affairs start, and not with some evil intention.

So what have you learned from everything that has happened with you betraying your husband and the aftermath?

I guess I am preaching to the choir a bit here and that is silly… but on the off chance that someone else is lurking and happens to read page {checks notes} 8 of this post… If it gets through to even one person, it was worth it.

I definitely think would have had sex with my AP if he had shown up, but I estimate it wouldn’t have felt anywhere near as good as it does with my H (and I have a pretty big sample size on which to make that prediction), and then not done it again. I think it would have shattered the illusion for me… But that’s just speculation, of course.

There are several things in that post that are examples of how my thinking "avoid the problem by avoiding the situation" works for me. It is not that I think that I am so infallible that I feel like I can "walk to the line" without crossing it, it is that I am mindful to avoid certain situations in the first place.

This is why I said I think we are secretly in agreement with one another earlier… Logically, there’s no reason to set and enforce those precautionary boundaries if you’re certain you would never commit infidelity. But you do, because you want to mitigate any possible risk.

"Accepting confrontations" with people who believe they know the meaning of my own words better than I do is not going to heal me faster.

The RECEIVER, not the sender, decides what a communication means. A response is based, usually, on how one interprets what one has read. You owe it to yourself to figure out how and why you've been misinterpreted - and it's usually because of what you wrote.

I agree that no one is totally immune to cheating, but we could be wrong. But whether we're wrong or right, how does arguing this unresolvable issue help you heal? My bet is that you're defending yourself, and on the wrong grounds. So what if everyone might cheat? Is your defense's contribution to healing going to give you the biggest payoff? What might be a better option for you? (I don't know the answer; that's why I ask, but I do think you are taking a wrong turn in how you use SI.)

[This message edited by SI Staff at 2:40 AM, Wednesday, December 3rd]

Yeah, no thanks on that one Sisoon

Ghostie:

Reading through your posts and this thread - thought came to me "50 Shade of Grey"

FWIW - Life is full of opportunities - many so because we PREPARE for them. As in getting an education or specialized training - like an RN or Pharmacist. Other opportunities fall into our lap whether or not we are prepared to deal with them or have any experience in dealing with a particular opportunity.

That is what I see with you - an opportunity flopped onto your path.

What you did with that opportunity is your Huckleberry. In your case (per your posts) your choices on dealing with said Huckleberry were counter to usual marriage vows and expectations your spouse (Husband?) has - or had.

The words "integrity" and "character" come to mind.

You are here looking to heal yourself (I hope) and you need to deal with how you perform in life with respect to integrity and character.

You have a memory of your painful choices for life and also a lifetime of work to fix what is mis-wired in your psyche that allowed your personal interpretation of integrity and character to lead you to the actions you made.

Convince your spouse that you realize you failed the expectations for integrity and character and you will never fall back to that mode of thinking and doing.

Every day for the rest of your time with him -

Assuming he stays - in time you will again find happiness.

Wish you well on your long journey.

I understand what sisoon is getting at. I can’t speak for him, but the bottom line is, is it really helping you, your BH or your marriage, to argue with people here about about what they believe to be true to themselves, and other random things that they share about their own experiences (and other things you’ve dine on these forums)?

How does it help you and your problems, to try to parse out exactly whether or not what Unhinged shared, was wayward behavior? How does it help you to argue with me about what exactly I mean when I say I won’t cheat, and insist on trying to warn me that I am wrong when I say that.

How does any of that help you with your own healing, dealing with how your BH feels and what he is going through, and trying to do what whatever is within your control, to try to show him that you are genuinely working on trying to figure out what’s really going on with you that allowed you to do what you did?

What I said about myself, what Unhinged shared about some things, it’s all really just noise in regards to what we and others here, have tried to say to try to help you.

Maybe consider why you choose to focus on the "noise" and argue about those things, instead of focusing on all the other things written, and exploring how some of it might really help you sort things out. Why not make endless posts about the wisdom people take the time to share with you, instead of endless and confrontational posts trying to convince people of things about their lives, that you feel they are "wrong" about, but have absolutely nothing to do with what’s going on in your own life.

So I ask again, in a different way because I don’t remember exactly how I asked earlier, what have you learned from everything that has happened with you betraying your husband and the aftermath?

Ghostie, I agree with sisoon and PrettyLies' last post. Some self reflection perhaps here is needed, I hope you're able to explore in IC. The thread definitely veered off course, but there is still a lot to learn. You are only in charge of your own healing and improvement. Others' opinions don't matter, you just take what you need and leave the rest, but a lot of advice on these forums is useful, even if it's just for reflecting in yourself and learning more. Good luck!

Not all of the conversation on here has to be specifically about me and my situation to be helpful, to me or to others. Talking about the abstract concepts and hypothetical surrounding infidelity help too, as they shape our understanding of the world and the way we move through it. If I spend, say, six hours of my time discussing how one ought to think (or in the most recent case, not to think) in order to avoid committing infidelity in the future, and put my ideas out to be challenged by others who (claim) they are also passionate about preventing infidelity where possible, and I come out of the other side of the discussion with these ideas confirmed or modified… I do think it strengthens my resolve to avoid committing infidelity in the future, and makes it less likely that I will do so. I hope that it might be helpful for others too, and not necessarily just the participants in the discussion.

How does it help you and your problems, to try to parse out exactly whether or not what Unhinged shared, was wayward behavior?

As I said, it is a good example of someone believing they are incapable of committing infidelity because their values and self-respect supposedly protect them, and the vulnerability that belief brings. He says "I couldn’t," but he did. Do I think it’s likely that he’ll commit infidelity in future relationships, after everything he’s been through ? No. But you saw how he was attempting to rationalize why the behavior wasn’t actually infidelity (which is what I believe one would call "wayward thinking," or even to use your phrase, a "wayward tendency,") and that is a risk factor. One who thinks similarly might end up in those sorts of unexpected, compromising situations, because they believe their values are infallible and will protect them, and if they rationalize away the instances where those values failed to protect them… What motivation does that person have to put in place the precautionary boundaries necessary to avoid compromising situations in the future?

And even if Unhinged never commits infidelity, what of the individuals he’s advising? If we are directing WS on here to focus so much on instituting and strengthening those values that will supposedly protect them from further infidelity, and they come to believe they have done that, and come to believe they "couldn’t" do it ever again… What if they haven’t actually developed those values? What if those values aren’t enough? There are consequences that come along with the risk factor that is believing one "couldn’t," and they include a whole lot more pain for BS, and shame for the repeat offender.

when I say I won’t cheat

"Won’t" is markedly different than "couldn’t." If you believe that you "won’t" cheat because you make active efforts to avoid compromising situations, that’s different from saying you "couldn’t" cheat, no matter what circumstances arise… I still think thinking either of these things influences people to lower their guard, and as we’ve seen… that’s not good.

As for me… I firmly believed infidelity was immoral before I committed it, and that didn’t prevent it. I don’t know if I’ll ever come to value honest and integrity. I might, but I can’t make myself value them. I can, however continually monitor myself with the utmost scrutiny such that I behave honestly and according to my morals, and set and enforce precautionary boundaries, while I do the work to eliminate at least some of the ingredients that form the perfect storm..:And I think that should be enough to protect me and my marriage. But I’m not so proud as to say it’s an impervious defense.

So I ask again, in a different way because I don’t remember exactly how I asked earlier, what have you learned from everything that has happened with you betraying your husband and the aftermath?

You are free to read any and all of my posts to supply yourself with that information. I’m not inclined to reiterate.

[This message edited by Ghostie at 12:45 PM, Wednesday, December 3rd]

Ghostie

I understand your point and appreciate the important distinction you're making between "won't" (a choice/intention) and "couldn't" (a capacity/inability). From a strict philosophical or logical standpoint, this difference is crucial. However, in common usage, these terms are often used interchangeably, particularly when moral certainty is involved.

You are logically correct: we could commit a long list of unspeakable atrocities, as the physical capacity exists, but it would be an overwhelming burden to live life with that constant, active vigilance in mind. Do you live with vigilance that you could murder? Do you live with vigilance that you could steal?

Let me apply your logic to a thought experiment to outline the source of the pushback you might be receiving on this topic.

Suppose a convicted sex offender, having served their time and dedicated themselves to rehabilitation, is speaking to a group about the path that led to their crime (e.g., a sexual offense, which my fiancé, working in prisons, often encounters in a clinical setting).

They explain that the slow escalation of their actions began years ago, perhaps with a gradual blurring of boundaries, a series of poor choices, or a failure to recognize a dangerous pattern of thought. They emphasize that when it started, they genuinely did not anticipate or intend for it to escalate to the ultimate crime.

Now, suppose this 'rehabilitated' individual goes around asking everyone to accept this premise: "You must be vigilant, because this scenario could happen to anyone. The potential for this kind of escalation exists in all of us."

From one perspective, the reformed offender is making a profound, logically sound, and arguably noble statement: recognizing one's own human capacity for error is the first step in avoiding disaster.

Yet, it is fair to say that many people would immediately push back and object: "I don't need that advice! I would never do that, even the suggestion that I could is offensive."

This is where the logical distinction meets the practical limits of common parlance and self-identity.

Philosophically/Logically: The person is correct. Unless a neurological defect physically prevents the action, the individual could choose to commit the act. The capacity is there.

In Common Parlance/Morally: When a person states, "I couldn't do that," they are not denying the physical capacity. They are asserting a foundational moral truth about their identity and their social contract: "I have such a deep, unshakeable moral barrier that to even suggest the possibility is an insult to who I am."

In this context, the assertion "I couldn't" acts as a powerful moral shorthand for "My character, my will, and my fundamental identity won't allow me to, making the logical could irrelevant." The pushback you are receiving stems from the feeling that insisting on the logical truth ('could') invalidates the deeply held moral certainty ('couldn't').

So following this logic, suppose this offender was to warn you of the dangers of getting too close to children... Do you thank him and apply his advice? Or do you get offended by the very premises that you could do something to a child? Because deep down, you know you couldn't.

Now exiting the thought experiment, of course child abuse is an extremely morally disgusting act. I used this here as it is so universally accepted to be a moral evil. To many of us BS, we view cheating in a somewhat similar way. Obviously not to the extreme degree as child abuse but we consider it to be a highly immoral act.

Does this analogy help you understand the responses here?

I'm not saying your advice is worthless but I believe amongst this crowd, likely not needed. People here know how bad infidelity is, they don't need to protect themselves, in the same sense that average person does not need to guard ourselves over being a sex offender or murder. We live by our moral standard and that alone is sufficient protection. Why it's different amongst this crowd in general is it's been so deeply forged by the trauma of living it. Infidelity isn't as self evident of an evil as the other examples but once you live it, you know.

My view on infidelity was formed prior to it happening to me, via seeing what it did to my mother. I could never do what my father did to my mother to anyone. I haven't spoke to him in many years now but I hear he's a lonely old man and likely to die alone. I'm thankful of that karma. Ultimately my stance was reinforced when i lived the experience. A double betrayal from a close friend and my ex-partner. That involved extreme gaslighting and turning everyone close to me against me. I can now confidently say, I don't need to guard myself at all. I'm confident on this. You suggest this claim can be only said on your deathbed, I suppose you're correct. I will follow up then

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 1:51 PM, Wednesday, December 3rd]

Do you live with vigilance that you could murder? Do you live with vigilance that you could steal?

Absofuckinglutely I do. I don’t think you understand how much pure rage and lust for justice I feel on a daily basis. I am certain I could easily choke the life out of someone, or grab a gun and pull that trigger with literal deadly accuracy. Especially if someone threatened my home or my family. (I am waiting for the day some unfortunately stupid mofo tries breaking into my house at night and gets met with 3 snarling dogs and a naked ass woman with crazy eyes wielding a loaded AR 15…No, I am not mentally well.) Would there be terrible legal, emotional, social, and psychological consequences if I murdered someone? Definitely. So I make sure I don’t do that. I’m going to therapy for my anger, among other things, and I’m trying different things to manage it. I don’t carry. If I start feeling too much road rage I pull over, so I don’t get close to committing vehicular manslaughter. I worry about snapping all the time. So I monitor myself and take precautions.

Stealing… I notice every opportunity to do so without getting caught. I think about how I would do it, if was going to. That’s usually a good sign that I need to put whatever it is I’m looking at down and immediately proceed to the registers.

And I know everyone isn’t like that, not as at risk to cross the line that I am. But that doesn’t mean anybody couldn’t someday snap. There’s plenty of people who do, and then plead insanity at their murder trial…I just feel like infidelity is different; it’s much sneakier, more insidious. I didn’t feel this urge to cheat lurking just under the surface, but I should have had boundaries in place, just in case. And I don’t think having those boundaries really cost people that much to maintain, in the long run.

Perhaps I'm not far enough into my journey to adequately explain my thoughts or processes, and I need to continue reading on SI before contributing.

Sorry slight T/J-

Heartbroken-

I hope you will continue to try and post. Sometimes it’s in the attempts of articulation that I learned the most about myself. It okay to change your mind about how you feel or what you write. The beauty of an anonymous forum is that sometimes what we write we may not even see an issue with until someone holds the mirror. Do not be afraid to post things, it’s sometimes in the discomfort the most is learned.

I definitely think would have had sex with my AP if he had shown up, but I estimate it wouldn’t have felt anywhere near as good as it does with my H (and I have a pretty big sample size on which to make that prediction), and then not done it again. I think it would have shattered the illusion for me… But that’s just speculation, of course.

I can understand what you are saying here. I am glad you are being honest with yourself.

The reality is I could have skipped the affair sex altogether, it wasn’t what I was after in the situation. Certainly, sex with your spouse who has had time to map out your sexual preferences is going to get it more right than someone who has not had that experience. Plus the comfort and love adds to the experience exponentially. An affair almost always turns out to be two people who are using each other and often for different things.

However, from a male perspective, and believe me I have had this conversation hundreds of times on this site with many different Bh’s and of course at home with my husband, and their overall valuation of it is very different. I can’t speak for all men, but the majority of them aren’t comforted by being told such things. I think it’s a combo of many things that accumulate together- social conditioning of words such as cuck, the fact most of them can’t fathom cheating for other reasons other than more or better sex, scarcity versus abundance (meaning a lot of them are the higher desire partner so they already feel there isn’t enough, or enough with quality), and I do think many men experience love the most through sex as a binding ritual. And then of course there are always individual factors.

This almost did, probably would have, is an area to pay close attention to because if it comes across as minimizing something they tend to maximize it can feel like an invalidation of feelings.

Just some thoughts because I am still in the train of how can you repair and add comfort to the situation and sometimes a lot of that is in awareness of what brings the most pain and also the most triggers.

I am assuming that you may not really have been in it for that reason. And it’s of course important to figure out all that you were getting from it so you can figure out how to give that for yourself. But while it was maybe less important to you, this is what is likely most important to him and I believe the truth is the best answer because to deny what logically probably would have happened would probably diminish trust, you just have to find more answers that may also start to address any lack of emotional safety in what all this means to him.

So in other words I value that you aren’t lying to yourself or him about the trajectory. But know that he is probably as betrayed that you would have as if you had. You may realize it but the damage is hard to put into focus sometimes in the earlier days when your own emotions can be so overwhelming.

Ghosties,

A smart person once said,

"Don’t walk along the edge of a cliff. You might stumble, or sneeze, and fall over. Stay way away from cliffs."

I think most people want to avoid being a cheater. We draw lines we won’t cross to stay out of trouble.

The problem many WS had, it seems to me, is that where they drew their line is already over the cliff. And when they’re plunging downward, the line goes by in a blur.

You say you would have had sex with your AP if he had shown up. Clearly, you had plunged way past your line, because your line was already over the cliff.

So now you’re drawing a new line. Good. But is it far enough from the cliff? You’ve been wrong before. Maybe think about how far from the cliff you should be, and double that.

Have you quit your traveling job? I know, I know, it’s a great job, need the money, etc., etc.

But do you keep the job, and cross your fingers that you keep your husband, or keep your husband, and cross your fingers about employment?

Your writing indicates high intelligence. Smart people are hard to find and in great demand.

You say you never had any intention of leaving for your AP. We judge ourselves by our intentions; others judge us by our behavior. And your behavior has sent a very different message to your husband.

You say you don’t think sex would have felt better with your AP. But you may be underestimating the effect of the dopamine hit. Many (most?) WS report that the dopamine hits are hard to get away from.

Draw that line way far away from the cliff. Don’t overestimate your resolve.

Best wishes.

[This message edited by Formerpeopleperson at 4:48 PM, Wednesday, December 3rd]

Not all of the conversation on here has to be specifically about me...

That’s partially true. People will share their own experiences and thoughts. This thread, you coming to SI, is, however, all about you.

I know damned well that I was guilty of wayward thinking and bullshit justifications for the crap I did decades ago, in my teens and early twenties. I'm closing in on 60yo faster than I care to admit. The incidents I shared with you all happened before you were even born. I've had plenty of time, and plenty of motivation, to resolve those issues a long, long time ago. That's not why I'm here. This isn’t about me or any of my foibles.

This about you.

You're free to avoid confronting the issues that lead you down Infidelity Lane as much as you want to, but it won't help you face the consequences of your own deliberate and conscious choices and actions.

It seems rather clear to me that you want to believe that you're different from other wayward spouses, that you're a victim of circumstances beyond your control, "a perfect storm." You rationize, minimize, deflect, equivocate, all to avoid taking a good, hard look deep inside yourself, terrified of what you might find. I've witnessed this with just about every other WS who has come to this site. I lived it, first hand, with my ex-wife.

I have also witnessed many WS do the hard work to own and fix their shit. Some I've come to truly respect. admire and adore (most are long gone from SI). I may not want to live with my ex-wife anymore, but I still love her and consider her to be a great friend and was awed by the journey of self-discovery she took.

Now you can rage at me, say I'm a hypocrit, that I'm not worthy of your respect or consideration for whatever reasons you can come up with. None of that changes these simple truths.

It is fucking hard to dig down deep and rip out the shit we've allowed to trip us up throughout our lives. It's painful, ugly, scary and we avoid it like the plague. I've been there and done that (and it's still a struggle at times). It takes a ton of humility and courage to be so uncomfortably vulnerable with the people in our lives who truly care about us. It's no less difficult on an internet site like this one, although it does have the advantage of anonymity.

Folks here will help you. They will hold your hand, guide you as they're able, but only if you're open to experience. It all starts with you, acknowledging how far you've truly fallen before you can ever rise strong.

It's all up to you, soldier.

Thanks for the insight, Hikingout. My H fortunately told me right after D-Day that the plans to meet up were basically "just as bad" as if I had done it, so I have had it in my mind that way from the beginning. I didn't expect him to think that it was about the quality of our sex life, but it's good to understand where that's coming from.

---
Formerpeopleperson, I would say before the affair, the boundary was not keeping friends who I started to like as people just a little too much... In the past, I've had to end friendships that I felt were risky. I've opted to avoid unnecessary interactions entirely with people I found particularly physically attractive as well. And of course, if my AP had been upfront about wanting anything more than friendship from the start, I would have been able to say "no" and walk away easily... But he didn't. It was that sneaky slow burn (though accelerated by the environment and circumstances.) So I'm moving the boundary back, for now, to "no new friendships" until I'm further into my therapy journey and recovery. Eventually I will need friends, as part of what made me vulnerable to chatting for hours with AP is a distinct deficit in social interaction generally, so I think that boundary will have to be not spending too much one-on-one time with new friends and hanging out in groups instead, along with the continual self-monitoring of what I'm thinking and feeling about each of them. (Men and women are equally risky.) But one step at a time.

I cannot change jobs. I'm contractually obligated to remain at my work til some time in 2027. But the possibility of seeing AP again is limited to once per year, and even then the likelihood of ending up in the same place for the same dates is low. And even then, I'm also unlikely to see him because he works in a different specialty than I do... I do want to quit at the end of my contract, for more reasons just to avoid AP, but our family needs to figure out health insurance for that to happen. I have been declining to spend time with coworkers outside of work hours in the meantime.

---

You're free to avoid confronting the issues that lead you down Infidelity Lane as much as you want to, but it won't help you face the consequences of your own deliberate and conscious choices and actions.

It seems rather clear to me that you want to believe that you're different from other wayward spouses, that you're a victim of circumstances beyond your control, "a perfect storm." You rationize, minimize, deflect, equivocate, all to avoid taking a good, hard look deep inside yourself, terrified of what you might find. I've witnessed this with just about every other WS who has come to this site. I lived it, first hand, with my ex-wife.

Here we go again I called it, didn't I? I hate that this is so predictable.

I called it, didn't I? I hate that this is so predictable.

If you are resisting the calls to "do the work", what is your plan here? You’ve got {checks notes} almost 9 pages of warnings to the under-informed. Seems adequate. What comes next?

Alright, kids, it's time to put our listening ears on!

I am not going to repeat myself in detailing all of the ways I AM DOING THE EXACT WORK YOU ARE PRESCRIBING.

It has already been outline multiple times, in multiple instances, in this thread and in others.

But tell me again, and again, and FUCKING AGAIN that I'm not, because I have my own thoughts and opinions, because I've rejected unhelpful shame, because I don't agree with every single character you type on here. Go on. Do it. Is it compulsive to you people? Do you fucking get off on it? Don't even answer that. I don't care. This is a waste of time and I'm going to leave you to rot in your own misery, where you can pat yourself on the back for your perceived righteousness. You're HeLpInG PeOpLe, after all!

Disgusting. Pathetic and disgusting.

[This message edited by Ghostie at 8:32 PM, Wednesday, December 3rd]

. I didn't expect him to think that it was about the quality of our sex life, but it's good to understand where that's coming from.

I think it can be that, but even deeper, some men report turning down opportunities of their own, some even see monogamy as a sacrifice to a certain extent. A respect they pay their spouse. So when they see that respect is not there, the same sacrifices not being made, it builds resentments.

Men are more likely to divorce over infidelity than women statistically. I think it’s a combo of all the things, especially social programming that has occurred since they learned about sex.

It’s a deep issue and one that has to be approached non-litigiously. There are things I feel that are so tender to them here in that department that it takes some time and effort to begin to fathom.

As for the integrity journey, here are some things I learned and maybe you will or won’t find helpful but I will try:

I don’t think we can force ourselves to value things either.

I always felt I treated people fairly, was honest to a fault, and did the things "good people do". But in all reality I think for a long time this was an extension of my people pleasing. I don’t see you as much of a people pleaser, I could be wrong, it seems like your shame manifests differently.

Anger is a hard emotion for me because I never wanted to be like my mother who was always unpredictably moody. She yelled as much as she talked, well maybe even more.

So when confronted about my character and integrity, I still felt very much like you do. That we have in common. I had justifications built around that that were more complex because I had to disguise them more to be palatable. But the underlying feeling was the same.

What I did start to realize is what you have already said, I didn’t want to be that person, I didn’t want to experience that pain ever again. So the first layer of attaching to a better integrity came in the form of being adverse to the consequences. It’s rudimentary, but in essence it was easier to do what I should do because I know cheating ended up being very bad for my mental state. I spent the first year feeling not only deep depression but batshit crazy. It was so disruptive I am not even sure how I kept my job, my marriage or my friendships. It was hands down the worst year of my life. I started smoking and pacing around in the yard talking to myself, to a God that I wasn’t sure existed, or just in general. It was bad.

I read a book called "the power of now" by Eckhardt Tolle, and started trying some of his meditative practices. I started trying to live more in the present instead of saddling myself with the depression of the past and the anxiety of the future. By practicing what was in that book, I essentially developed different coping mechanisms.

And as I developed a self love, something you have mentioned realizing that you need to develop, I started naturally having new feelings about my life.

When you don’t care about or respect yourself, it’s hard to have values. The best I could muster was wanting to avoid future consequences. Once I learned to love and respect myself, then those things began to mirror themselves in my other relationships. I not only wanted to protect myself from pain, I wanted to protect them from me giving them pain. Then I also saw how good I felt when I was doing things out of self love and self respect.

So as this grew, I found I didn’t want to do things that crossed the line of self respect. I didn’t want to chase validation from someone else, I validate myself. I don’t want to do things that are going to create more shame, I want to walk in the sunshine. I don’t want dirty little secrets or to use other people. I want to be open and be loved, truly loved.

I wouldn’t for a minute today believe that a man could come along and love me while he helps me destroy my life and marriage. The idea they are trying to get validation from someone else’s wife is a huge red flag and I would be disrespecting myself to allow someone like that anywhere near me. Someone who loves you wants what is best for you and an affair partner doesn’t care what’s best for you. They care about getting what they want out of the situation. This is 100 percent of the time. Because someone capable of loving themselves and loving others would not say "hey I know let’s destroy the home you have built for yourself and your child."

Integrity is about knowing why you do the right things and having that contract specifically with yourself. I was sexually abused as a child and I learned through that how to effectively get a sleazy persons attention. I just didn’t have the belief in myself that I was worth more than that. In fact, I am worth the life I want to live, the marriage that I want to build, and the love that I give myself.

And so are you.

I think that when you don’t care about yourself you can’t care about your values and I think that’s where you are on the map right now.

When you have that fixed, it’s much easier to invest in your values because they allow you to live the life most of us really want inside. And you will become as attached to that as you have been to self destruction.

Don’t allow yourself to get distracted from your destination. Debating strangers, focusing on the house cleaning, and whatever else you can invent to avoid the horrific feelings I know you are truly carrying around in the inside. The pressure you feel. The anger that has been there so long that it will always produce resentment in any relationship you ever have. It’s hard to find the keys out of that prison, and the more that happens the more pressure you feel to find them.

The keys are being present more and not in your head. Taking care of your brain chemistry- I took up running because of the dopamine, but even just walking especially in nature as a practice will help. Finding new ways to cope- I highly recommend that book the power of now. Know it’s a dense read, and a little woo woo but if you do it, it works and helps you rewire yourself. Gratitude practices. Things that help you self regulate- humming helped me some.

I am sure this all sounds ridiculous. It did to me as well. But you have to find your calm in this storm so you can anchor yourself. Figure out your relationship with you and so much will come to you- you will feel more engaged with things like values, and letting go of resentment and thinking about what you want and who you want to be and practicing all that awkwardly at first and confidently later.

You can do this and you owe it to yourself to do it.

Also a note to the audience- if you don’t feel it’s helpful for her to debate, my advice is to keep your focus on what you feel will be helpful. Don’t keep debating that you want her to stop debating. :-)

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:05 PM, Wednesday, December 3rd]