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One difficult aspect of disclosing my w's A to our daughters was that they are both teenagers who have been in their own serious dating relationships. In both relationships, they dealt with boyfriends who in one case broke trust with phone porn, and the other actually cheated on my daughter. Both relationships ended eventually, but I fear how their knowledge of their mom's infidelity has impacted what they see as "normal" in relationships. It is difficult to stress to them how "cheating" or consistent porn use during dating is a big enough red flag in a guy that we think they should end a relationship before it gets serious, while explaining why our decision to reconcile was the right one. Obviously, we have explained that 16 years of marriage, support, and parenthood before the affair built a solid basis to attempt reconciliation. But I think it might be hard for them to process that in relation to their own relationships. Anyone have experience with conversations like this? Obviously, I want our daughters to forgive their mom and love her with grace. At the same time I want them to immediately flee a dating relationship that could progress toward marriage at the first sign of broken trust. Tough stuff...

I had to have this conversation with our son. He knew the AP...our families traveled together on vacation, etc. But, it was a conversation that we didn't have until a few years after DDay.

The week after DDay, FWH came clean to our son. Son's initial response was shock and anger at his father. We made sure he had access to counseling. In that conversation, FWH promised we'd stay married.....and I interjected that I wasn't sure about that....but I promised to work on it. In hindsight, I didn't want to make a promise that I couldn't keep. Though, about 2 years out from DDay, it was obvious that we were going to be ok. In many ways, FWH's own behavior changed so much for the positive, that our son could see how things were ok and the effort it took to get there. We also will have been married 30 years this year. So, we had quite a lot of life together to build on for recovery. AND, FWH was a poster child for recovery.

Our later discussion was more in line with....if you're in a relationship and the other party thinks you're exclusive/committed....behave in such a way that you feel good about yourself in the morning. The truth always eventually comes out. I worried that cheating would be normalized for our son, as well. But, I think him seeing the devastation and work that we've done for recovery (from a limited and age appropriate view) has taught him some life lessons about not going down that path himself. He was also cheated on. I think it is a matter of teaching our children integrity.

That is definitely tough stuff!

The only wisdom that I could impart would be to keep talking about it. Finding the appropriate way to go about it is something I struggle with as well with my own 15yo, who knows about what happened and now has divorced parents.

My first love, a girl I started dating in the spring of my junior year of high school, cheated with one of my best friends that summer. I kept dating her. I was still in love and getting laid. I stayed friends with my friend, because we'd been friends for years. I chalked it all up to us being dumbass teenagers and tried to forgive. Plus, I knew we'd all be going our separate ways in another year.

What I didn't do was share any of it with my parents. They had a shitty marriage, were both miserable, and neither had any spare emotional capacity for their kids. I can't imagine what either of them might have said, or what advice or guidance they may have offered. I honestly never thought about it until now.

It's a good thing, I believe, that you have the kind of relationship with your daughters that they trust and respect you enough to come to you with these issues and questions. Be as honest and open with them as you can be.

(double post)

[This message edited by Unhinged at 7:12 PM, Tuesday, April 14th]

I don’t know very well about the impact on kids, almost refrained to intervene. But I have a daughter too, someday she will have to know, when she is old enough.

So this touches me.

I searched around for the impact of this on kids, and it seems like there are usually 2 kind of reactions, the broader ones at least
- repulsion
- emulation

From what I gathered it seems to be connected to the consequences following the betrayal.

If it goes rugswept, emulation tends to be the outcome.
If it has harsh consequences, repulsion towards infidelity seems to be the emotion that gets reinforced.

As I understand it, the idea is that we humans learn in big part our acquired behaviors from consequences, either direct or indirect.

If I did not get burn as a child I would have likely been playing with fire a lot more. If my friend didn’t break her leg and got bed ridden for months, I would have likely been way less careful when fooling around.

That’s all I’ve got, I am looking forward to hear more from more experienced people

It sounds like your daughters are older teenagers that explore adulthood, so I don't see any reason to hold back. You can discuss that concern with them, your own experience and motivations, pros and cons, you can show them some of the books or internet stories from here or for example reddit. You can't make them always make the safe or the right choice, but you can shutter any delusions that they may have. Will it strain their relationship with their mother? Perhaps, but they are now part of the abusive dynamic and they should have the opportunity to be reconciled with in an honest way, just like you. Being kept in the dark and withheld knowledge and experience doesn't help anyone in the long term.

As a personal example, my dad had some serious anger issues when I was a kid. It was discussed thoroughly with me, which I am very thankful for and it has a big positive impact in my adult life, though at that point it was obviously very difficult.

[This message edited by Itiswhatitis000 at 9:11 PM, Tuesday, April 14th]

From the perspective of simple logic, you can’t sustain an absolutist argument. You can’t say that they should never give anyone a second chance after betrayal, because that’s not what you’re doing.

You therefore have to make a distinguishing argument, as we lawyers say, which is what you’ve kind of been doing. You have to argue "this is different because". Essentially your position is that R should only be considered in very limited circumstances, which luckily you and Mrs Carpenter satisfy. Or you could even say, "we’re the exception that proves the rule".

You might say things like the below, if you believe them:

* dating is a test run for marriage. No one should ever forgive cheating before marriage - they have failed the test, and are not marriage material. R should be reserved to married couples under rare circumstances.

* no one should consider R if there are no kids.

* you should not consider R if you’re younger than [pick an age], too much opportunity cost, with so many prime years ahead of you.

I’m sure there are other good or better arguments you can think of that apply. I definitely believe the first one, and almost certainly the third one. The second one probably depends on other factors…

Frank, I wouldn't make any simplistic, absolute argument, that given a, b and c it is okay to reconcile or not, because they should be able to have a broad perspective and make choices based on deeper understanding. I also would like to point out that they may be the ones that will have to choose if some illicit fun on the side is okay, something that wasn't considered here. You could convey a wrong message, for example that they should be granted forgiveness and live happily ever after. A Hollywood version of life.

[This message edited by Itiswhatitis000 at 10:07 PM, Tuesday, April 14th]

Itiswhatitis000, the first thing I wrote was that he can’t make an absolutist argument.

As I understand the original post, Carpenter wants his girls to " immediately flee a dating relationship that could progress toward marriage at the first sign of broken trust", but he wants to teach it to them in a way that doesn’t negatively impact their view of his own R. To do that, he needs to be able to show why his choice to R would be different than theirs. I gave a few suggestions of how that might be so.

He can clarify for himself, but I myself have a 17 year old daughter in a serious relationship, and I can say I definitely do not think she has a "broader perspective" or any kind of "deeper understanding". So I think his "immediately flee" guidance is right on, and it’s the one I’d give my own girl if she got cheated on. So he’s got to make that case, which takes some finesse in this situation.