SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

For the benefit of those that have not seen my previous post:
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About a month ago, in an effort to take the pressure off of our relationship and allow both of our nervous systems to calm down, I decided to take a step back from trying to get her to do reconciliation work. I canceled couples therapy (which was not feeling useful to me anyway), and sent a letter in an email outlining essentially the following:

That I need things to change.
That it's difficult to feel like she is a fully safe partner with this constant blaming happening.
That our relationship has been under a lot of stress, and that taking a break will allow that stress to reduce, and hopefully our nervous systems to relax.
That she has work she needs to do, and that I cannot help with or direct this work. It's 100% on her.
That we are taking a four month break from couples therapy.
That we each will be focussing on our own healing and that I'm stepping back from trying to direct reconciliation.
That I'm not giving up on us, we are just taking a break so we can de-stress and work on our own stuff.
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This past month it's been hard to tell if she is feeling less stressed or not because it's the busy season for her business and things ramped up around the same time I sent the letter.

Her emotions have still swung back and forth a lot. She had a total meltdown one day, that I tried to help her with but couldn't do that much. She has seemed on the edge emotionally at times, and then other times happy and loving.

On a positive note, last week we were able to talk finances without fighting. This very much surprised me since our last major fight happened when I tried to start a conversation of this kind. She also apologized for being so difficult with the finances, and said she was not trying to be stubborn. So thats something.

I have done my best to adhere to the terms of my letter, and continue doing normal things. We still have our routines. We still spend time together. We still talk. etc.

Unfortunately this month has been pretty hard for me.

As others mentioned in the previous thread on this topic, now that I'm stepping back and just watching I'm able to observe what her real actions are, and that has proven true. I'm seeing things in real time that I would have missed before. Both good and bad.

My brain is now in "lets get the most realistic view of the situation as possible" which is great. I want the best information to make decisions off of. In this way it has helped a lot.

I have been reviewing journal entries and past posts on SI that I have made since D-day, and I have really been thinking a lot.

The down side to this increased observability though, is that in reviewing everything that happened, in some ways re-living it, I'm seeing her actions in a different light. A less than appealing light. This is painful, and exhausting for me, but I know it's probably necessary.

I'm worried that this light is doing the opposite of rose colored glasses though - making things look more negative than they really are since thats when I tend to journal or make posts.

Also the possibility of us splitting seems more real to me now that I have come to the point where I can't accept staying in a relationship that doesn't feel healthy to me; and I'm seeing signs that this might be the case in our relationship. I hope not, but I'm worried.

It's been difficult accepting this idea, and it's been difficult re-living parts of these past two years.

I find that I'm angry, depressed, or anxious a lot.
I find that I'm obsessing about what I'm going to do at the end of this time period, and feeling concerned/bad about hiding my real emotions from her. I keep writing letters to her hoping to explain how I feel, or working through my feelings, or outlining my hard boundaries, etc. I don't send them. I just write them. Maybe one or two I will give to her at the end of this period. Who knows.

I feel like I'm not doing this correctly.

I'm not doing something as extreme as the 180, but I also don't feel content to do nothing.

I feel like I should find ways to de-stress and relax, and also I know at the end of this time period I'm going to want to take some kind of action. Maybe I'm overthinking it?

I think you're doing really well -- not the depression part, that's something you need to process through anyway -- but I like the stepping back part a lot.

I think you need to focus even more on YOU.

Time to do your favorite things, old pals, hobbies, comedy shows, punching bag at the gym, etc., anything that gets you some time to heal. Her actions will reveal whether or not you have someone to work with or not (so far, not much to work with).

I don't think it is a bad idea that she sees some of these letters you are writing. Even you can't share your feelings normally yet, you do have to find a way to let her know where you're at, even if it is just negative stuff.

Someone who truly cares about you will want to know and want to help.

Also the possibility of us splitting seems more real to me now that I have come to the point where I can't accept staying in a relationship that doesn't feel healthy to me; and I'm seeing signs that this might be the case in our relationship. I hope not, but I'm worried.

I think the moment you are not worried about the outcome is freedom day.

Then you can choose your path, solo or be ready to outline the M you need to stay.

Hello brother.

Few things that caught my eye.

You have been driving reconciling until now. That’s a lot of responsibility put on you. And while this focus might have been a relief from the pain and anger as "I am doing something, I am going to fix this mess" keeps you occupied to reach a goal I don’t think is fair.

For once, you are the wounded part, the victim. I know the extent you suffered firsthand, it’s a moment where you wish the woman who wounded you and "regrets it " would show up, tends to your bleeding, tries to hold hand and climb up with you easing your pain even just a bit. Showing she cares now, that she means it.

Instead it sounds as you have been dragging her up the hill, battered and wounded, while she just passively allowed to be carried.

Then there’s her immaturity and underdeveloped emotional baggage that allowed her infidelity to happen. She might be grateful you took charge of leading up, but it also meant she could avoid the accountability of being the one walking together at the very least, if not even taking the chance to grow as a partner and demonstrate her commitment to fix what she caused. You could not see evidence of she developing and changing from her old self and leaving her old comfort zone.

Unfair.

That is possibly somewhat similar to what you can observe now that you paused and that you find discouraging.

It’s not necessarily a sign that she’s not doing the right things or the work, but she might have been somewhat relieved that you took the lead and direction of reconciliation. This way she knows you still care enough to fight for both so she doesn’t need to face herself, her choices, her actions as much through introspection, to understand where you were, were you are , where you are going and trace the way.

That’s possibly relaxing for her nervous system, as she doesn’t have to constantly face her shame and guilt, not in the same amounts a wayward who is present and takes charge feels forced to do at least.
So it might be tempting for her to just passively follow and let you take her with.

She might be tending to some of your wounds, but you were still the one pulling, no matter the bleeding 🩸

I would say that this pause can be a good chance to test. Now that you’ve paused from grinding teeth and pulling up, you can see if she is keeping going forward and taking pace or she is more static, waiting for you to resume the climb.

You can see more clearly where she I’d doing better and where she is slacking. This also gives her a chance to step up if she’s realizing she can show up and exchange places, become the leading force while you catch your breath. As a partner does.

I would say without reading too much into it yet, you had phases so far:

Devastating damage, pain and grief
Then you took charge to focus on reconciliation
Now a pause, where you can savor all the emotions you ignored while focused on the climb.

Of course they feel intense right now, you didn’t give enough space for them to process as you were fighting for the couple.

The change of pace makes them stand out more initially, for now they can fill you.

I can say this might be worth taking some time and just allow your system to integrate those along the rest. Meanwhile observe your wayward. There could be things that pleases you and others that might disappoint you, I expect that as this is a difficult process for 2 imperfect humans and an underdeveloped wife who is trying to suddenly grow up into a more fulfilled and safe woman.

Perfection is the last thing I expect to find in reconciliation.
But it might shed light on the areas where you two have need to work and improve if and when you resume the climb.

Give it some time of just breathing and just being present now.
It can bring you clarity

I find that I'm angry, depressed, or anxious a lot.

I think all of the reviewing you're doing is probably a good idea. I say "probably" because reliving it can also retraumatize you, trigger all sorts of thoughts and emotions, and set you back a bit in your healing. However, it can also help to process the pain and trauma out of your system, which is always a good thing.

What I find positive about what you're doing is that you're actively working through it all. As betrayed spouses, the work we have to do to heal and put ourselves back together is exhausting at times.

I think you need to focus even more on YOU.

Oldwounds is spot on here. Focus on you and your healing. Rather than continuing to stress about this upcoming deadline to return to R work, use this time to find joy, whatever that may mean for you. I cannot stress strongly enough how important it is to find peace with ourselves. Peace of mind, body and spirit is the greatest gift we can ever give to ourselves.

I'm not sure giving your wife these letters is a good idea or not. You've committed to stepping back for a while, so maybe just use this letter writing as another way to journal your thoughts and emotions is your best course of action. When the time comes, review them and share accordingly.

Someone who truly cares about you will want to know and want to help.

This is so true! I wonder if she is respecting your space or relieved by it. Either way, it would be nice and encouraging to know that she's concerned enough to bridge that space in even the slightest of ways, without any prompts from you.

I can't accept staying in a relationship that doesn't feel healthy to me; and I'm seeing signs that this might be the case in our relationship. I hope not, but I'm worried.

It seems to me that most betrayed spouses go through this starting in the third year. Most of us take it one day at a time, making the choice to stay or go, evaluating and assessing with each setting of the sun.

How much time and energy you're willing to invest is entirely up to you. For me, that was three and a half years.

Focus on you, your recovery and healing. Find your own peace of mind, body and spirit.

I think the moment you are not worried about the outcome is freedom day

This sums it up perfectly. In the very beginning I was terrified of being alone. But as time went by, and anger slowly replaced fear, eventually I came to the point where I was no longer afraid of being alone. And now fear has been replaced by ambivalence.

This allowed me to make decisions based on what was best for me, not decisions based on fear

At 27 months post D-Day I discovered that she had exchanged a few text messages with a male coworker which was a clear violation of a boundary I set over 2 years ago. She considered it innocent because in her words she didn't delete it which meant she wasn't trying to hide it. My response was nor did you disclose it to me. To me, she had no problem violating a boundary that I had in place that was necessary for me to try and feel safe in the relationship

After a lengthy conversation where she apologized and said she understands that her way of thinking about it was wrong and once again she has broken my trust and and and, I'm now at a point where I just don't care about her being here, about us being together.

This is both sad and very freeing. Up till a couple of weeks ago we were doing pretty good but now I feel like this has set us back 2 years and right now I don't want to put in the time to try and fix us

I think the moment you are not worried about the outcome is freedom day

It’s because you start living in the present friend. Not the past, not the future.
Simply now.

Don't give her the letters.

Continue to observe as objectively as you can.

If you need to, make a sort of "pros and cons" list, but with good things you can remember, bad things you can remember, and good/bad things you are observing in this time.

Stick it out until the end of the 4 months, and then you can be absolutely assured that you gave her lots of time and space to work on herself, to reach out to you if she felt inclined, and if still nothing changes... You have your answer.

Like others have said, take care of yourself in the meantime. Exercise, eat well, get good sleep, engage in activities that bring you joy, spend time with loved ones, etc.

You're doing just fine.

Also the possibility of us splitting seems more real to me now that I have come to the point where I can't accept staying in a relationship that doesn't feel healthy to me; and I'm seeing signs that this might be the case in our relationship. I hope not, but I'm worried.

My reco: Fuck 'healthy'. Start with not wanting to stay in a relationship that doesn't give you what you want.

First figure out what you want. Then prioritize your wants (including don't-wants). Then look at attainability. Then discard the unhealthy and/or unattainable wants.

*****

Have you considered co-dependence as a problem for you? If you haven't read Co-Dependence No More, I suggest looking at it. If you see yourself described in the book, or if you rebel strongly against the idea that you may be co-d, You'll have some indicators of what you need to do to cure some of your pain.

*****

I agree that seeing yourself living a good life alone and with your W is freeing - and a big step in healing.

It’s scary to think about an outcome that you previously didn’t think you wanted. Just try and accept you still don’t know, the time frame isn’t up. I think it’s a normal tendency to take what you know and try and calculate what will happen or what should happen but you are only a quarter through the timeline. Maybe make a separate agreement with yourself that when you feel yourself trying to project an outcome, remind yourself there is no crystal ball and keep diverting your attention to the things okdwounds is talking about. Lean into hobbies, other thoughts, work to change your focus.

You see we as humans have a tendency to get stuck in thought loops because we have gotten used to using all our creativity on this one problem or thing. Your life is many things. Lean into the other parts of life as much as possible.

The clarity can be difficult but try and do that without judging. Write it all down in a journal and when the time comes read through and highlight it with two colors of highlighters. One for the positives and one for the negatives. Then the decision doesn’t have to be marital outcome. It can be lots of other things: more time observing, giving her feedback from the first four months and talking through that, deciding it’s time to work on reconciliation, deciding it’s time to move to separation because she hasn’t gotten far enough for you to remain comfortable in your routines, and lots of other variations. It maybe you are ready to say divorce is the answer but I think that will be loud and clear yet.

You are doing great, you are just sliding back into some old thought patterns that are hard to not slide back into as it goes against human nature. We like certainty. This process always requires getting more comfortable with uncertainty. Lean into the idea you can and will be okay in either scenario. Build your faith in yourself —-after all you have survived all your bad days so far.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:46 PM, Monday, July 27th]

Everyone thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. I helps a lot. I'll respond to each person below, but it's getting pretty long. You can just skim down to your bolded handle/name rather than reading the entire thing if it's too much.

Oldwounds

I think the moment you are not worried about the outcome is freedom day.

Then you can choose your path, solo or be ready to outline the M you need to stay.

I'm not to the point where I'm not worried about the outcome yet. If I'm being honest the idea of getting divorced and being alone terrifies me. But I do have things that I need to see change. These are the boundaries I'm planning on communicating to her when this period is over.

- The blaming/criticism/attacks/deflection needs to stop
- I need her to see an affair recovery specialist. Not her current therapist. Someone I can have faith will guide her in identifying and addressing the core reasons she turned to betrayal when she was unhappy. Someone who will in no way shape or form blame me or the marriage for her choices.
- I Need to see anger/rage/resentment/bitterness being replaced by humility and gratitude over time

I'm trying to be careful that I identify MY boundaries I need in order to stay long term, and I'm not trying to control her. It's work. These might still be wrong.

I also recognize that me focussing on these is still me focussing on the end and not focussing on things for me. I'm working on it. I just need something complete enough that I feel like I can put it down for a while. Maybe that will never happen and I should just stop. I am concerned about rug sweeping though as we did rug sweep for a previous emotional affair she had years ago when our relationship first started.

BackfromtheStorm

For once, you are the wounded part, the victim. I know the extent you suffered firsthand, it’s a moment where you wish the woman who wounded you and "regrets it " would show up, tends to your bleeding, tries to hold hand and climb up with you easing your pain even just a bit. Showing she cares now, that she means it.

The thing is, for the most part she has been doing this stuff... except as I've described when she feels attacked, defensive, or that our relationship might not be "equal".

I've thought a lot about this recently, and there is no such thing as equal. Her actions were profoundly unequal, and unfair to me. There is no way we could ever really be equal. Even so focussing on equality is the wrong path. I need her focus to shift from "equality" to becoming a safe partner again.

One thing that became more clear recently is that there are two parts to reconciliation, and the reason I'm feeling so conflicted is she is doing one fairly well, and the other I'm not seeing hardly at all.

The first part is the betraying partner needs to begin taking aggressive actions to transition from bad partner back to good partner.

When an affair happens, the person cheating has a diversion from normal good partner behavior (not lying, not cheating, focussing on the relationship, etc...), to really bad partner behavior. The kind of behavior almost no one would consider relationship material.

In order to reconcile, they have to take steps to show their partner that the affair is over, that they are no longer lying, that they are willing to be honest again, etc.

Essentially returning to what most people consider normal for a partner. Really it's the bare minimum needed to even begin trying for reconciliation. Without step #1, the relationship won't last long enough for the next step to happen.

The second part: identifying and addressing why this departure happened in the first place.

Digging really deep to identify and address why cheating was an option on the table at all. Doing the work to make sure this option is never on the table again.

Both of these things are required for reconciliation in my opinion, and I'm only seeing the first from my wife.

She has identified her "reasons", but those reasons are essentially my fault in her mind, and thats a no go for me.

She is too smart do directly blame me. It's phrased more like this: you, and others, did things that hurt me and resulted in my unhappiness, and that unhappiness eventually led to my trying to cope with those feelings. That coping led me down the road of activating my pre-existing traits to have an affair, just like someone who drinks their feelings away. YOU NEED TO ADDRESS YOUR PART IN MY UNHAPPINESS!

The solution to preventing another affair in her mind seems to be that I address the things she blames me, and others, for making her unhappy. Not for her to address why something that made her unhappy led to betrayal at all.

In order to feel safe I need to see that this other work is happening. So far I've only gotten "we are working on this" which is not very reassuring after the level of betrayal she did, and two years of blame after.

That’s possibly relaxing for her nervous system, as she doesn’t have to constantly face her shame and guilt, not in the same amounts a wayward who is present and takes charge feels forced to do at least.

I think this is likely, and part of the reason I'm doing this. I think she was in an emotional cycle that left her unable to cope with new stimulation.

Of course the other side is possible as well... that she is unwilling or unable to move in the direction I need. Thats what I fear.

I would say that this pause can be a good chance to test. Now that you’ve paused from grinding teeth and pulling up, you can see if she is keeping going forward and taking pace or she is more static, waiting for you to resume the climb.

I'm still working on pausing, as Hikingout points out below. It's something I've got to work on. Either way though, my current plan is to give her a list of things I need to happen (the list above).

Of course they feel intense right now, you didn’t give enough space for them to process as you were fighting for the couple.

This is right on. Every time I moved from one phase to another, I would feel a huge wave of repressed emotions well up. For example in the beginning I was solely focussed on preventing her from leaving me for him. After I was convinced that that was no longer likely to happen, then I moved on to lesser concerns that were hiding beneath that bigger one. It's like peeling an onion one layer at a time.
Unhinged

Oldwounds is spot on here. Focus on you and your healing. Rather than continuing to stress about this upcoming deadline to return to R work, use this time to find joy, whatever that may mean for you. I cannot stress strongly enough how important it is to find peace with ourselves. Peace of mind, body and spirit is the greatest gift we can ever give to ourselves.

I'm terrified of getting to a place where I let things be slipped under the rug without seeing the core work described above being done. Forever I'll be stuck in a place where I'm mostly happy because she is good at phase #1 work, but always wondering if I'm ripe for another betrayal because phase #2 has not happened. Of course I don't know if it's happening or not. I can only go off of what I see from the outside.

This is so true! I wonder if she is respecting your space or relieved by it. Either way, it would be nice and encouraging to know that she's concerned enough to bridge that space in even the slightest of ways, without any prompts from you.

I have noticed her stepping up here and there, and communicating that she is sorry more. For example just this morning she said she was sorry for being dumb, and thanked me for staying. It's very important to see this attitude in her, it could be a shift to more phase #2 work. But she has said things like this before with LOTS of criticism and blaming after so I'm not holding my breath.

It seems to me that most betrayed spouses go through this starting in the third year. Most of us take it one day at a time, making the choice to stay or go, evaluating and assessing with each setting of the sun.

It's good to know. Thank you.
WB1340

At 27 months post D-Day I discovered that she had exchanged a few text messages with a male coworker which was a clear violation of a boundary I set over 2 years ago.

A similar, though less intense boundary violation happened last week. Two years ago one boundary I put up was that I don't want her riding in vehicles with other men. That is a boundary she crossed with her affair partner, and there is no reason at all she needs to be doing that. Well she was on the phone and I heard her talking with a coworker, and he suggested she ride with him to the site, and she agreed. After that call I was pretty upset, and I told her that I felt like she was not respecting my boundaries. That was the fourth small but clear boundary she has violated in the past year. She said she would not do it. I view this as box checking, not her really changing. Why was the boundary violated at all? She listed her excuses, but why did she need them in the first place?!

GotTheMorbs

If you need to, make a sort of "pros and cons" list, but with good things you can remember, bad things you can remember, and good/bad things you are observing in this time.

I've been going over my journal entries, as well as SI posts, and compiling a summary with annotations to help me see a clear picture from a 30,000 foot view so to speak.

Stick it out until the end of the 4 months, and then you can be absolutely assured that you gave her lots of time and space to work on herself, to reach out to you if she felt inclined, and if still nothing changes... You have your answer.

I think this is still a good plan. Right now my form of communicating this is to establish boundaries in what I need to see happen for me to stay long term.
sisoon

First figure out what you want. Then prioritize your wants (including don't-wants). Then look at attainability. Then discard the unhealthy and/or unattainable wants.

Honestly this has been hard for me. She asked something of me in the very beginning when she delivered her rather long list of the ways I was not good enough, and the list of things her affair partner gave her that I was not giving her. She had this well thought out from the start, and I suspect it's part of the way she justified her affair.

What did I want? Sure there are a few things I can think of, and I'm making sure those are very clear to her. But really most of those things I didn't consider a big enough deal to exit the relationship over. What I wanted after D-day, and what I still want, is a wife who can convince me she is NEVER going to betray me again.

I understand the possibility is always there. I'm not asking for that to go away. Only that she does enough work to reduce the chances to the absolute minimum - what I see described by people here who have reconciled. Thats what I want.
hikingout

It’s scary to think about an outcome that you previously didn’t think you wanted.

Terrifying for me. I realized that when I get really emotional, a large part of that is because I feel like I'm being forced by her actions, or inactions, into a course of action I don't want to take. Frustration that she is not going far enough, and I'll either continue to be stuck in this limbo, or have to make a sucky decision in order to get out of it. Really I just want her to snap out of it.

Just try and accept you still don’t know, the time frame isn’t up. I think it’s a normal tendency to take what you know and try and calculate what will happen or what should happen but you are only a quarter through the timeline. Maybe make a separate agreement with yourself that when you feel yourself trying to project an outcome, remind yourself there is no crystal ball and keep diverting your attention to the things oldwounds is talking about. Lean into hobbies, other thoughts, work to change your focus.

Thank you for this. It helps me pull back and get to a more neutral position.

The clarity can be difficult but try and do that without judging. Write it all down in a journal and when the time comes read through and highlight it with two colors of highlighters. One for the positives and one for the negatives. Then the decision doesn’t have to be marital outcome.

As I said in my response to GTM, I am doing this. I hope it will give me a different perspective.
One way I'm considering communicating my feelings to her is to say what I described above about the two phases of reconciliation. In the past she has taken me asking for work in phase #2, as me not recognizing her work in phase #1. I want to make it clear that I do recognize and value that work, but I still need phase #2.

You are doing great, you are just sliding back into some old thought patterns that are hard to not slide back into as it goes against human nature. We like certainty. This process always requires getting more comfortable with uncertainty. Lean into the idea you can and will be okay in either scenario. Build your faith in yourself —-after all you have survived all your bad days so far.

Thank you for more positivity. I do tend to get into thought loops, and slip back into old thought patterns. I'll work on it and try to notice when I'm doing that.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you typed here, but if I understand this correctly...

Two years ago one boundary I put up was that I don't want her riding in vehicles with other men. That is a boundary she crossed with her affair partner <snip> That was the fourth small but clear boundary she has violated in the past year.

If it was with her AP that's a whole lot more than a small boundary crossing. That's a huge one.

Unless it was a different random co worker who wasn't AP?

Yes a different unrelated person entirely.

She is too smart do directly blame me. It's phrased more like this: you, and others, did things that hurt me and resulted in my unhappiness, and that unhappiness eventually led to my trying to cope with those feelings. That coping led me down the road of activating my pre-existing traits to have an affair, just like someone who drinks their feelings away. YOU NEED TO ADDRESS YOUR PART IN MY UNHAPPINESS!

She, like every single one of us, is responsible for her own happiness. Even beyond blaming you for ‘causing’ her decision to have and maintain an A, she seems to be asking you (and others?!) to bear the burden of keeping her happy, a shifting and unknowable target. I am sorry, but I think this is something that everyone has to realize as a grown-up.

I totally agree with letmebefrank.

She needs to take responsibility for all her o n feelings, especially her own happiness. It’s a common deficit in a ws to rely on other people for that, and instead of taking our agency we allow ourselves to sulk.

A healthy, proactive person manages their own feelings. If they do not like something in a relationship or feel they are being put upon by their spouse they can have a normal productive conversation about it.

I know you want her to "snap out of it" but I am not sure that is realistic. She must:

Actively engage with herself, identify her feelings, be able to navigate compromise and creating win win situations so both of you can be happy. I don’t think it’s terrible if you are doing something she doesn’t like to call that out, that is healthy. It’s where she seems to assign you the job of making her happy or being so affected over normal marital interactions that it derails her. She must learn to regulate herself.

I feel like I realized pretty early in that I needed to learn to make myself happy. But it took me longer than I could probably calculate here to take all the strings to that and trace them nd control them more. No one is ever perfect with that, but my therapist told me that I needed to find things that were healthy that light me up instead of making choices to create chaos. But you all are years in, she should have had that realization by now and have made some degree of progress there.

The only thing you can do in the situation is take that same journey for yourself. Lean into what makes you happy. I like that you have made. A list. Honestly it really bugs me that there still hasn’t been my discussion of your letter to her. Maybe you need to have. Shirt
Meeting at the end of each month to give each other feedback. I feel like the avoidance she is still demonstrating at this point is unacceptable. I think it’s made you avoidant of being open with her. So maybe monthly check ins could somehow fit into your plan? At this point I can see why you are losing hope in the marriage, and I think she needs to be more warning that instead of taking this time as get out of jail free card of sorts.

Letmebefrank

Here's the cool part though. She takes "full responsibility" for her affair. She has used those words from D-day on. She isn't linking the two.

Nevermind the fact that I heard almost nothing about this stuff before her affair was revealed.

Nevermind the fact that its been a constant barrage since then every time we fight/argue/talk.

I asked her why she keeps bringing these things up, and she said something like "since our relationship could be destroyed by this event anyway, I might as well bring up all the problems I've had in the relationship."

Except she doesn't seem to want to resolve these problems. Only to use them as a shield to protect herself.

[This message edited by Theevent at 1:47 PM, Tuesday, July 28th]

I'm not to the point where I'm not worried about the outcome yet. If I'm being honest the idea of getting divorced and being alone terrifies me.

Why does this terrify you?

hikingout

I totally agree with letmebefrank.

She needs to take responsibility for all her o n feelings, especially her own happiness. It’s a common deficit in a ws to rely on other people for that, and instead of taking our agency we allow ourselves to sulk.

A healthy, proactive person manages their own feelings. If they do not like something in a relationship or feel they are being put upon by their spouse they can have a normal productive conversation about it.

I very much agree with this as well. She seems to have this attitude "I was unhappy in our marriage. The way I handled that unhappiness was wrong. I admit that. But you need to take responsibility for your part in that unhappiness."

She has said this in many different forms to me dozens and dozens of times, as well as things like "you hurt me too", and "you aren't perfect", and things like that.

My part in her unhappiness was me living life as if nothing was wrong because she held up a facade for me to see instead of hear real emotions. Making decisions with the information that was available to me at the time. Decisions she didn't like. She allowed herself to grow angry and resentful about these things over long periods of time. So resentful that she was able to use that resentment as justification for betraying me.

But you all are years in, she should have had that realization by now and have made some degree of progress there.

This is why I'm so concerned right now. It's been two years and I'm still being berated by this stuff. I don't think she should have been bringing it up back then at all. It's quite insulting to me. But leeway has to be given in the early stages for the WS to grow and change. I can't expect them to change like a light switch. But it's been long enough.

The only thing I can think is either she is unwilling to go there, in which case our relationship is not going to survive. Or she is getting bad advice from her therapist, possibly because she is not being honest with her, and thats why she is still clinging to these ideas. I don't know.

Honestly it really bugs me that there still hasn’t been my discussion of your letter to her. Maybe you need to have. Shirt Meeting at the end of each month to give each other feedback.

I'm worried that this would undermine what I said in my letter.

I feel like the avoidance she is still demonstrating at this point is unacceptable. I think it’s made you avoidant of being open with her.

It's not the avoidance that is making me avoid talking to her. It's her extreme defensiveness, anger, and resentment whenever I do anything that "triggers" her. It's the fact that if I try to communicate with words, she immediately starts getting defensive, and spirals into a series of defensive attacks on me. Usually bringing up all these familiar criticisms as her shield. This is why I have resorted to writing her letters instead. Reading a letter she might get defensive, but she cannot derail the conversation because it's not a conversation. At the very least I can get out all that I need to. She might write me a letter in response bringing up all the things she would have said verbally as she has done in the past, but at least we will both be able to get it all out at once.

Also, like you, it helps me to organize my thoughts.

At this point I can see why you are losing hope in the marriage, and I think she needs to be more warning that instead of taking this time as get out of jail free card of sorts.

Yeah I have thought about this, and honestly I don't know what this checkin would entail. What exactly would I say? What would I ask her to talk about? How could I prevent these from turning into fights because of this defensiveness? Her verbal skills are much higher than mine and she can easily sidetrack and derail the conversation. Then like three days later I think of how I could have handled it better, but that doesn't help in the now.

I have considered maybe just writing her letters periodically to let her know where I'm at as has already been suggested.

Unhinged

I'm not to the point where I'm not worried about the outcome yet. If I'm being honest the idea of getting divorced and being alone terrifies me.

Why does this terrify you?

Because I really do still love her and I'm worried that I might somehow mess this up when it would otherwise be salvageable if I did things correctly. Then I will be left with the regret of driving the person I love away, and the regret of fumbling reconciliation, and splitting our family up.

I realize it's really her actions that have put us on this path. But it is for sure possible for me to mess reconciliation up as well.

Because I don't want to be alone for all the standard reasons people enter into relationships. It's nice to have companionship.

People say divorce really sucks, and I want to keep that as the very last option available on the table.

Because I think it's extremely likely that should we divorce she will find someone else pretty quickly. She is very social, and has a HUGE group of people she interacts with. Majority male, many of them single actually. I'm worried she will be moving on while I'm stuck alone. Then in my solitude I will have to be aware of her new love interest while my antisocial ass is stuck living alone. We have two children together theres no way I will be able to hide from it. That seems like a special kind of hell to me. Especially when I still love her.

I think you are right.

Maybe stay grounded and do the four months. I misread the part about giving her a list. Scratch that thought on my last post—-you are not in a hurry so letting things breath and then maybe coming up with some sort of feedback at the end.

I feel like I did a lot of the same thing your wife did in holding things back in not saying I didn’t like something but then secretly holding resentments. I don’t recall when I finally just said—you know what I can’t blame him for what he didn’t know. I didn’t really act in the way towards him in getting defensive or trying to remind him he isn’t perfect but I think that’s a deflection. She isn’t ready to see it because it is something she used to justify her actions and if she has no justification then what’s there? Fault. She can say "I take accountability for my affair" but that doesn’t mean she isn’t holding onto her justifications because she is scared of what that says about her.

If she can embrace the idea that it doesn’t say she is bad or evil, but that she made some bad decisions probably stemming from some areas to growing then it’s not as scary.

You are right you can’t lead this forever.

And honestly if she is never going to address the letters you wrote her in terms of discussing them I would maybe change the letters to say—-I am going to give you a week to think about this and then I would like to discuss. Nothing is going to ever be resolved if you just pass her notes and she can pretend she didn’t receive them.

hikingout

And honestly if she is never going to address the letters you wrote her in terms of discussing them I would maybe change the letters to say—-I am going to give you a week to think about this and then I would like to discuss. Nothing is going to ever be resolved if you just pass her notes and she can pretend she didn’t receive them.

Maybe I mis-conveyed myself, or I'm misunderstanding you.

In general I write letters mostly as a journaling exercise for myself. It helps me get my thoughts out, and helps me convey things that I need to convey even if it's just on paper so to speak.

Sometimes I give her one here and there when I feel that after all of that I still want her to read it. But most of them I don't give to her.

But if you are referring to this most recent letter, then you are 100% right. Next letter I will set a date to discuss it so I'm not in this strange limbo place not knowing her thoughts on it. It is really weird that she never brought it up. But in her defense it was written more from a "I'm doing this" perspective so maybe she didn't feel like there was anything to discuss. Or maybe she is super avoidant. Probably both.

I didn’t really act in the way towards him in getting defensive or trying to remind him he isn’t perfect but I think that’s a deflection. She isn’t ready to see it because it is something she used to justify her actions and if she has no justification then what’s there? Fault. She can say "I take accountability for my affair" but that doesn’t mean she isn’t holding onto her justifications because she is scared of what that says about her.

This is exactly how I see it. She doesn't want to be the bad guy in this scenario, and as long as I "did bad things" in her mind, she can spread some of the blame over here to me, and feel like she was justified at least in how she was feeling. Her feelings were justified, but the way she handled them was bad.

This goes back to the idea that marriages cause affairs. My former therapist said something almost exactly like this: "Clearly there were problems in the marriage, and affair happened".

From what I've seen, at least with couples therapists in my area, they are trained to treat every relationship issue as a dual created by each partner. They treat infidelity the same. Which is exactly why he said that. Clearly we need to discuss the marriage it's what made her vulnerable to having an affair.

Marriage is code word for "me", since she doesn't need me to address her half of the "marriage issues" in couples therapy. She could do that on her own without me.

It boils down to the therapist saying essentially "what did you do to make her upset enough to cheat on you? Lets fix that and it will fix the relationship."

I believe she believes this. I can never get on board with this idea, and I think it's despicable that marriage therapists are trained this way. It causes a lot more pain than is necessary in these situations.

No one is perfect. So there is no such thing as a perfect marriage. Even if there were a perfect marriage, external things would happen to add stress. Maybe an accident, and illness, or what not. Betrayal would never be on the table in someone who is healthy.

What I wanted after D-day, and what I still want, is a wife who can convince me she is NEVER going to betray me again.

A good M is so much more than not cheating. What does that look like for you?

For me, I guess it's being myself with someone who's her self. Knowing we are in each other's corner. Knowing she'll accept me despite my ADHD. Accepting her despite her CSA, infidelity and (now) Mild Cognitive Impairment. Mutual openness. Sorry ... I don't have the words.

I guess none of us has all the words we need to describe a good M. But we can start. So what do you want besides fidelity?

*****

For an exercise that may help you deal with terror, ask yourself, 'What will you do if your W decides to leave?'

*****

Take some pressure off yourself. Make healing your goal. Assume D/R will take care of itself, if you heal.

*****

Hang in with yourself. You can get through this and thrive.