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He wants his AP after all. Gutted.

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nekonamida posted 11/12/2019 13:53 PM

You gut has it right. Keep NC and let him prove to you it's real this time.

I was reading an article yesterday about how manipulative people always press you for an answer to a big question right away because they know if they keep the pressure on, you're more likely to cave to their demands. I think this is exactly what he's doing. He knows what you want him to do. He knows your terms of R. But he thinks he can beg, plead, and pressure you into taking him back without him having done any of those requirements.

The other thing that's concerning to me isn't just that OW didn't live up to the fantasy and you're plan B. It's also that they broke up over something so stupid. That tells me that even if you take him back, there's a very good chance she will start sniffing around again once she's calmed down and try to get in touch with him. Just "breaking up" with her isn't good enough. It's not final enough. He needed to cut her off for good, tell her it's never happening again, and block her everywhere. I don't see anything indicating that in what he's said to you. Just that he's "done" with her whatever that means which after an A usually just means done until she reaches out again and he decides R isn't all it's cracked up to be with you.

Trust your gut. Keep putting that space between him and you. If he's being genuine, he will do the work and if he's just afraid of being alone, he will be back with OW or someone new in no time.

Charity411 posted 11/12/2019 14:53 PM

Hes...I'm so sorry for what you are going through. I know you want to believe him. It would be so nice to wave a magic wand and be back in what you thought was a wonderful life. It is so easy to be tempted to take them back with open arms.

But what bothers me about your situation is his mindset, and I formed my opinion about this from reading his own words in the Wayward forum. Only three or four weeks ago what he was saying was very different from what he posted here earlier. There were some real red flags.

I agree with the others that you would run a real risk of being hurt again. I get the sense that he is is someone who thinks he deserves to be fought over. The problem with people like him is that no one is ever really his plan A. He thinks he is plan A, and your job is to make him feel that way 24/7, and if not he'll find someone who will.

And if that doesn't work out, he will come back to you because the alternative is to be without anyone. No one to empty the bin, or unload the dishwasher, buy the right bread or tidy up after him. And if and when he does come back to you or her or anyone, he'll expect his choice of a woman to be overjoyed at the opportunity to fawn over him. Who cares if you're life as you knew it was pulled out from under you by his actions. All should be forgiven, because that's what it will take for him to grace you with his demanding presence.

It is far too early to risk giving him a chance to move back in. I know you probably fear that if you hold back he will move on. But the reality is you will have your answer. If he doesn't wait for you to be ready, it will be because being alone was to inconvenient for him and you weren't worth it enough to put up with that to win you back. And sure, if he moves on it will hurt. But I guarantee it will hurt worse if you let him move back in only for him to decide one winter morning doesn't like his commute to work and he finds someone else to accommodate his every whim. Someone closer to his job. Does that sound like someone you want to grow old with?

k8la posted 11/12/2019 15:10 PM

I would suggest at least a 6 month separation, not to test him as much as to see if his talk is as cheap as it has been in the past. He has his own bad acting to overcome. Being alone would be a really healthy thing for him since he was holding onto her blaming you for not committing to reconciliation sooner, and "he didn't want to be alone." I think he NEEDS to experience being alone; getting acquainted with himself, his selfishness, his neediness, and lack of empathy. Then and only then will he start thinking of other people's needs. Marriage is not for the needy/selfish/consumptive kind of man-child. He needs to grow up, and learn that there are other people out there, living, breathing, hurting - and more than a few are hurt because of HIS actions.

At the end of the day, you can learn more about a man by what he does without a promise of reconciliation to be kind, generous, faithful ANYWAY. None of this sneaky bullshit he's done in the past to prop up his needy-lame ego!

heisasadcliche posted 11/13/2019 03:13 AM

k8la

I would suggest at least a 6 month separation, not to test him as much as to see if his talk is as cheap as it has been in the past

I do feel it will take this long for me to see if his words turn into actions that stick. He has spent most of 2019, from January to now, lying and increasingly becoming entangled in his deceit and selfish behaviour.

nekonamida

Pretty much everything you said resonates right now.

Thanks again everyone, you are helping. He reads my thread, so if you want to tell me anything particularly important/useful that you think he shouldn't see use the private message option. ( I hope I am allowed to suggest this?) If not I can edit my post accordingly. x

The1stWife posted 11/13/2019 04:15 AM

He has spent most of 2019, from January to now, lying and increasingly becoming entangled in his deceit and selfish behaviour.

Actions not matching his words. 🚩🚩🚩

I think you have your answer for now. He’s not trying to change.

Tallgirl posted 11/13/2019 06:23 AM

HIASC

I am sorry that your selfish SOB WH has put you through this. He is not worthy of you.

It all sound so familiar.

Saying I'm sorry is easy, being sorry for a couple of weeks is easy. Regret is selfish, remorse - he is not there.

True change, well that takes the rest of your life. It is not a limp dick effort needed here. It is "a last chance all in effort at true change" that is needed. Being a decent human being, a good father, a good example, a good husband - for the rest of his life. and if he can't, leave. And honestly, if he does do this, it is your choice who you spend the rest of your life with. He bailed, and no longer should have any expectations.

You do not have to forgive him, frankly, I imagine he is hard to look at right now. How a person you have loved for so long can be so selfish and cruel and NOT accountable, is unfathomable.

Forgiveness is a gift, not a right.

I have been following your thread, you are doing great. And if your WH has read this, I hope he understands that his wife is awesome and he is not deserving or safe for her right now.

heisasadcliche posted 11/13/2019 10:13 AM

Tallgirl, thank you. x

k8la posted 11/13/2019 11:18 AM

He needs to demonstrate he's changed, without condition. None of this "if you'll only take me back" crap.

He. Needs. To. Experience. Himself! ALONE! Without the affection, safety, or admiration of ANY woman (or man, for that matter).

He needs to demonstrate he's a changed man now, unconditionally and will do right by you, without your obligation to do anything at all. He's burned the bridge, burned the town. There are no words that will rebuild that.

ChamomileTea posted 11/13/2019 12:30 PM

You know, this betrayal is still so new for you. By now, it probably feels like you've been dealing with it forever, but this is just a drop in the bucket. Typical recovery is two to five YEARS. I'm nearly five years out now and there are still some days when I look at my WH and I can't wrap my mind around the things he did. And believe me, I've spent pretty much all of these past five years trying to.

I went back through your posts and the most glaring fact was that your WH doesn't "get it". He can't (or won't) understand the true scope of what he's done. He lacks empathy, which is really nothing more than walking a mile in the other person's shoes. But he doesn't have the imagination to feel your pain and your loss. Intimate betrayal obliterates our innocent trust and our sense of specialness to the one person we've pledged our lives to. That doesn't come back. We have to work around that in R, and for some people, it's too much work without enough reward.

Your WH has never displayed any of the benchmarks which might predict success. He's not truly remorseful. He lacks the ability to empathize. He is consistently selfish and focused on his own comfort. So, it's not just a question of what HE might learn in six months, it's also a question of what YOU will learn. This guy didn't just magically turn into an asshole overnight. An OW's magic vajayjay doesn't have that kind of power. He's been devolving for quite some time, from the sweet boy you chose to be your own to an ego-monster who can't/won't stop serving himself at the expense of others.

The mantra you've adopted is a good one. "Would I date him now". I've been married over 35 years, so I KNOW what it feels like to look at that old familiar face and SEE the young man I fell in love with. But you're still early days here and you haven't had time to absorb the enormity of it all. He needs to EARN his way back. If he doesn't, you'll always feel like you settled for less than you deserve. The injury will nag at you. You'll question his motives and his commitment until/unless he's proved himself. R will stall and then become limbo.

sassylee posted 11/13/2019 15:47 PM

Print out ChamomileTea’s last post Hesasadcliche. Keep it handy for when you waiver, it’s spot on!

josiep posted 11/13/2019 16:09 PM

He's weak and pathetic. You do not want this man as your husband. File for Divorce and march forward. Then in 6 months or so, take a look at what he's done with himself during that time. Has he worked on himself? To improve himself? To be a better father? To become trustworthy? To become kind?

In 6 months time, you'll have had enough space to have more clarity of thought, you'll be somewhat healed. And then you'll be able to look at him and your marriage more objectively. If he's continued to be a man of words and no action, then you an decide if that's what you want in your life.

But right now, he's weak and pathetic. Only time will reveal whether that's a permanent part of his character or whether he fixes it.

I'm so sorry you're having to endure all this but I think it's pretty obvious that you've got everything going for you and will be fine. Hang in there!

Charlotte77 posted 11/14/2019 03:13 AM

Sending you strength and hugs. You WILL get through this.

tushnurse posted 11/14/2019 09:40 AM

What you are seeing is regret, and fear of being alone or made a fool of. This is NOT remorse.

If he is starting to get it, and finding remorse, then he will start to do the REAL work to fix his shit. And if it is lasting and meaningful then in 3 or 6 months he will be much healthier, and safer for you to even consider if you want to R with him.

In the meantime focus on you. Your healing.

heisasadcliche posted 11/15/2019 15:33 PM

He's STILL on about needing motivation to change.

What more does he need?

His lads deserve a better dad, he deserves a better him. I have told him my terms, last weekend, he's asking if I can give him reassurance that there is a chance...

He needs it, he needs a holiday too at Christmas as he needs something to look forward too. He needs hope.

I need him to stop asking me for stuff I can't give him, due to lack of his draining me of all I have. I also need him to F**K off this page if he is reading this. Go and work on yourself mate and let me have some rest.

Off to enjoy my lovely friend who has driven miles to visit me, drink wine and then sleep on my brand new mattress.

ChamomileTea posted 11/16/2019 16:13 PM

He's STILL on about needing motivation to change.

What more does he need?

Sounds like he needs you to file. If he's waiting for you to kiss his ass and beg him back after walking out on you for a skank, not once but twice, I suspect he's going to have a very long wait.

This guy has been consistently selfish in every possible way. He's never backed off from his "me first" position. Certainly, you can do the separation and wait to see if he pulls his head out of his hindquarters, but I have to wonder if the writing's not already on the wall considering the obtuse nature of his requests.

The reason he wants you to make these kind of agreements before he consents to the process of R is most likely that he doesn't intend to do the work. If he can get you to agree to let him come back on his terms, to take him on holiday, or whatever absurd hoop he holds out for you to jump next, what's the incentive for him to turn over a new leaf? He's just as likely to be one of the WS's who doesn't want to talk about it and who doesn't work hard in therapy because it makes him uncomfortable. That's essentially what he's saying... he doesn't want to be uncomfortable. Real R is anything BUT comfortable, so imagine how that attitude is going to play out.

As always, your choices are your own... but people don't change. The exception to that rule is people who want it more than anything else and are willing to put in the hard work to make it so.

((big hugs))

sassylee posted 11/16/2019 22:20 PM

His “need for motivation” is his way of trying to get you to commit before he does any work. He wants you to go first...you probably already know he’s full of shit. He has no plans on doing anything uncomfortable. He just wants to slither home and once there - it will will be the same old bullshit.

Have you read up on the 180? It’s in the healing library. It will help you hold your resolve and thwart his attempts to wear you down.

The1stWife posted 11/17/2019 04:52 AM

HeisaSadCliche

So glad to see you get it and he just doesn’t.

I would be curious to see what would happen if you told him “you have a chance” and then sat back and watched. Did the hard 180 and just watched. And waited.

I wonder if there would be any change.

nekonamida posted 11/17/2019 08:07 AM

The reason he wants you to make these kind of agreements before he consents to the process of R is most likely that he doesn't intend to do the work.

Yep! He'll do the absolute bare minimum if you complain about it. I also think this is another set up for him going back to the OW in the near future so he can say, "But you didn't motivate me! You wouldn't commit! How could I risk being alone for nothing?"

People who are all in don't need external motivation. They have already found motivation internally. He has one foot out the door and he's making it your responsibility to keep him in. That's not right at all.

[This message edited by nekonamida at 8:09 AM, November 17th (Sunday)]

self-rescuer posted 11/17/2019 09:35 AM

People who are all in don't need external motivation. They have already found motivation internally. He has one foot out the door and he's making it your responsibility to keep him in. That's not right at all

Nekonamida stated this perfectly.

The running theme of the cheater having to move heaven and earth to become a safe partner is a SI constant because it is true. Your husband is obligated to do all the heavy lifting. You are not required to meet him halfway (or whatever the hell he is implying in his subtle blameshifting mea culpa).

You are required to get back on your feet and regain your balance. You are required to find peace and clarity. You are required to walk into a life that includes trust and safety.

That is all that is required of you.

worldofpotential posted 11/17/2019 16:02 PM

Oh HIASC (sorry this is long),

I'm so sorry you're going through the pain of infidelity and that the actions of your husband are making that pain worse. I thought the boundary setting you laid out to him was pretty unambiguous, and very reasonable. I'm astounded that he's ignoring all of that, and continues to make demands of you.

My situation is very different to yours (much shorter marriage, no kids). I did a false R for about 3 months after my ex walked out then came begging back. Cheating was of course denied and I finally kicked him out when I discovered the A.

I'm recapping ancient history, because in those 3 months I experienced considerable emotional and mental damage from the actions of my STBXH. Looking back my ex was always self-centred but it reached a whole new level during wreckonciliation. I couldn't talk about how much his walking out hurt me, because it made him feel bad and wanted to make him leave again. I couldn't wear lipstick or he wouldn't kiss me, I wore too many red clothes, I didn't have dinner waiting on the table for him (I worked full time, him part time but he needed a schedule to see OW) I thought the problem was me. It wasn't, obviously.

I don't know everything, but I strongly suspect if you R currently, your WH will do everything in his power to make it on his terms. He is already trying to trample your boundaries, by asserting that his needs are more important than yours. Strangely, his AP has declared a boundary, by booting him when he talked about you to her. He's making it clear that he has to have somebody, whether it's you or her doesn't actually seem to matter, from this outsider's point of view.

Put yourself first. If you hitch your wagon to his this early on and he scarpers, you'll lose all the energy, love and time that you will sorely need later. No matter what happens you need to be ok to live your life. I recovered my sanity eventually, but it's time I'll never get back. Since we split, my personal and professional achievements have reached new highs. I'm not being held back anymore. I see you're a runner. I wiped 20 minutes off my half-marathon PB in five months, because I poured energy into myself, rather than the emotional black hole of my ex.

My Ex is still with his young AP as far as I know (NC!) and wreaking havoc and destruction at our shared workplace. Not the actions of a happy man.

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