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Rideitout posted 11/13/2019 19:52 PM

If you don't know me, then I'm just a random body with holes for you to use. I find that pretty revolting.

It's funny, shows how different we all are, because what you find revolting, I find very attractive. What I'd probably draw as a parallel for me would be a woman finding me attractive for my bank account, that's "revolting" to me. But a woman desiring me just for sex, or just for my body? That's a bit of a boyhood fantasy. My body is "me". It's more "me" than my personality (which can change, and I can lie about to impress you), my money, my things.. It's literally the most "me" thing there is, and having you attracted to that, well, it's extremely alluring to me.

And I think this is another one where gender lines will get drawn. Gay men have bathhouses and glory holes, the absolute most "objectified" that you can possibly get. Just a penis, through a wall. But the attraction of that (minus the gay side) is pretty strong for me. And given that this is pretty popular genre of porn, I suspect I'm not alone in this fantasy/desire. There's no "purer" sexual desire for me than looking at me across a bar, winking, and going right to a hotel room without a word said. Nothing attracting you to me beyond my looks/the way I carry myself/etc. And, of course, that also explains a lot of prostitution, men pay for that experience and women are paid to provide it. And there's almost no demand in the reverse direction (women paying men for anonymous sexual encounters; but, honestly, that's 2 fold, why pay for what's free, and of course, it's not something that most women are looking for).

PSTI posted 11/13/2019 20:08 PM

RIO- your body is just something you're born with- your personality is the thing that makes you YOU, in my opinion.

If I just wanted a body, I could get one of those fuck dolls.

I like sex. I'm a very happy hedonist, myself. But I want to be desired for who I am and not what I look like. Frankly, one of the reasons I choose not to make myself societally attractive is because I want to avoid the dudebros hitting on me when I go out. It's a major turnoff if someone hits on me for how I look.

*shrugs* People tell me I have a man's sex drive, and I tend to have highish testosterone. But I don't want to be a fill in the blank in someone's fantasy. If someone is fantasizing, I want it to be about ME.

Rideitout posted 11/14/2019 06:54 AM

RIO- your body is just something you're born with- your personality is the thing that makes you YOU, in my opinion.

I understand your viewpoint on this, and, we're both right. "You" is your personality and your body together. The reason I value body more is because it's "harder" for me, it takes a lot of work to keep up my appearance, stay thin, muscular, etc. I can't wake up today after doing nothing for the last year and suddenly "switch on" a good body. It's lots of time and dedication to get there. Where, my personality, or the personality you'd see if I were trying to sleep with you, is changeable in an instant. It's not a constant thing at all, I can be a joker, sad, introvert, extrovert.. Whatever the situation requires (well, not whatever, but usually) I can be that person that portray that persona. And that's why I value that less, because what exactly are you attracted to? The person I am with a group of guys? The person I am at work? The person I am when I'm alone? The person I am when I'm trying to date a woman? They are all different personalities and different "people". And if you don't like any of them, well, I can cook another one up for you if I have some idea of what it is you'll be attracted to. It's like being attracted to someone's face who's wearing a mask, do you really like the person's face or just the mask they are wearing right now?

But I don't want to be a fill in the blank in someone's fantasy.

Here again, probably another difference between us. I'm happy to "play the role" and fill the fantasy for someone. In fact, I'd say that's exactly what my W's A was (and probably most A's) someone stepping in to fill a fantasy. But I've got no issue with it because, in a lot of ways, fantasy isn't that far removed from just wearing a different mask.

DevastatedDee posted 11/14/2019 10:20 AM

Deleted.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 10:33 AM, November 14th (Thursday)]

DevastatedDee posted 11/14/2019 10:23 AM

Dammit, I got pulled in again! RIO....lol. Anyway....the thread is about how it's unhealthy to feel a need for everyone to desire one sexually, not about how women need flowers first.

You already know that the gender stereotypes kill me.

Sincerely,

DevastatedDeewayne.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 10:35 AM, November 14th (Thursday)]

DashboardMadonna posted 11/14/2019 10:34 AM

Rideitout-

You come from a lot societal conditioning, if nothing else. Men have been conditioned into an entitled "more is more", since beginning of time and also conditioned into believing they are less if they dont obtain such standards. The old caveman theory has been flipped on its head, so much that psychology has been looking at actual facts and evidence. Theory means nothing, without facts. People chase younger people for self esteem reasons and why people cheat.

The statistical climb behind women cheating has everything to do with the 1960s and entitlement. They cheat for the very same reasons men do...because they can. They also like them young....the cougar phenomenon has been crammed down our throats the same way little girls have mens throat.

The emotional connection theory has been crammed down our throats as means of submission. Again, statistics are flipping it all on its head. I know too many women (especially young) that bed hop much like a man.

Personally speaking, I dont seek validation through youth culture. I have enough sense of self and haven't the need.

I dont find many, if anyone attractive. Always been that way. My husband split on me years ago and I saw someone for a short time. I wasn't attracted to him... it was out of my lack of self esteem....there wasn't an "emotional connection". Some cheating wives might go that excuse, if it means another stab at a floundering marriage...In the end, it was about a low esteem...most likely rooted in childhood.

[This message edited by DashboardMadonna at 10:44 AM, November 14th (Thursday)]

Loukas posted 11/14/2019 10:40 AM

You come from a lot societal conditioning

DashboardMadonna posted 11/14/2019 10:47 AM

Lou,

Actually no. Strange little thing called reading. I don't make up excuses, I am about facts...I realize this may hurt feelings...so be it.
The shift in what is deemed attractive only further pushes this point.

[This message edited by DashboardMadonna at 10:57 AM, November 14th (Thursday)]

silverhopes posted 11/14/2019 10:54 AM

I think woman have it easy ONLY in the sense that if they want a sexual partner, a ONS, an affair it is far easier than it is for a man.

Easier... if you don't care about who your partner is. Easier, if finding a man 3 decades your senior, or one who won't take 'no' for an answer, or one who makes you deeply uncomfortable in general... Sure, "easier" to find a partner. I'm almost tempted to say this as, "Women have it much easier finding a sexual predator for a partner than a man does," because for way, way too many of us, that's exactly who we get approached by! Am I saying AMALT? No, obviously not, the majority of men aren't, the majority of people in general aren't predators! What I am saying, though, is that women get a disproportionately higher number of predators approaching us than men do. Am I saying men never get approached by predators? No, not saying that either. Disproportionately higher for women - disproportionate being the keyword.

Sorry, that happens to be a pet peeve of mine. I see it a lot (not picking on you, Buzzy, yours was just the quote that stood out), and each time, I wonder about it. Is it really easier to find a sexual partner - or is it really easier to find a partner if we completely lower our standards and let just any random person who gives us bad vibes grope us? Plus, when people say those things about "easier to find a partner" (presumably a partner who isn't a creeper), I get the sense they're talking about certain people who look a certain way. Not, say, a 190 lb. single mom who doesn't know how to apply makeup. And yeah, 190-pounder-non-makeup-wearing single moms get approached by creepers too - that doesn't make it a compliment!

Not Everyone Needs People to Desire Them Sexually

True, we don't. A lot of us just need that ONE person to desire us. When we don't have that one person (or, when we do in theory but not in practice aka our spouse doesn't want us, or they do but then they disparage us afterward), it hurts like hell. So how do we deal with that? Mind you, as much as I'm gonna miss regular physical intimacy, there's no way in hell I'm going back to being abused...

[This message edited by silverhopes at 10:57 AM, November 14th (Thursday)]

SumofOne posted 11/14/2019 10:57 AM

Back to some of the original comments. I was about as egocentric as one could be years ago, right down to having to have beautiful things and beautiful people around me.

Now I drive a 15 year old car. My job allows that I dress comfortable to which I take advantage of wearing sweats and t shirts often. I still take care of myself, but my every move isn't designed to cultivate attention.

Even when I was like that I had healthy boundaries. I could be told I was handsome and not let it lead to sending nudes or sex.

Everyone likes to hear they look good once in a while. I think those that are inclined to cheat should know themselves and avoid attention seeking behavior. They just can't handle it.

BraveSirRobin posted 11/14/2019 11:00 AM

DevastatedDeewayne

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 11:00 AM, November 14th (Thursday)]

DashboardMadonna posted 11/14/2019 11:10 AM

SumofOne-

I respect your comment and I agree.

Incarnate posted 11/14/2019 11:29 AM

I started to read over the replies and followed the gender stereotyping derailing, but I think I am going to bring it back to the OP.

Why would it matter if someone wanted to have sex with you? If you’re there to sell widgets to a widget shopper, how does being sexually desirable matter?

I can tell you why I want to be desired sexually.

Growing up, I was not the popular body type of my generation. All of my female peers wanted slender, boyish-looking Backstreet Boys/N*Sync sorts of young men, and I was very much so not. I developed early, and by 14, I had a full beard. Not just a little peach fuzz or a creepy mustache, I could grow it out and braid it. I was broad shouldered, barrel chested, physically very strong, I had hair on my chest and not just a little. My jaw squared up and, while I still had a boyish look about me, I looked more like a man than my peers. I was a powerful young man, which was NOT what my female peers wanted.

So I went through my younger life romantically alone. I had a few short term girlfriends, all of which left me for someone more slender, less mannish, lighter voice, etc. When I got married, I had FINALLY met someone (at age 17) that claimed to appreciate me for who and what I was, and that was intoxicating. We made love at the drop of a hat, we were passionate, etc, etc.

And then it dwindled. She started commenting on those slender, Backstreet Boys, as to how cute they were. Darker skinned men, of which I certainly am not. Every trait that I did not possess. I felt lesser. I felt second rate. I felt lonely and unwanted.

Now, in my mid 30s, most of those guys are in their middle age as well, and they've filled out and finally reached "my level." However... I'm alone again.

I do not feel like I am a desirable human. I feel like there is a barrier between me and finding a partner because they're going to take one look and say, "I'm not ready for THAT fixer-upper." They won't get to know my personality, my humor, my intellect, my skills and intelligences, they won't get to know -me- because my meat puppet isn't the epitome of physically desirable.

I am picky too. I get it. If I look at a potential partner and I can't envision myself being wildly enthusiastic with them in bed, well... that's important to me. I have a type that I am attracted to. Slender, petite, shorter than me, though hair and eye and skin color means less to me now than it used to, I do like fair skin and dark hair and light eyes. I'm totally okay with dark hair or women of color, but if given a magic machine that would build a perfect partner for me, well, I know what I would pick.

And I want to be that pick for someone else. I want them to look at me and say, "Damn, I wanna get under that!" and then through association we get to know each other as people and as personalities. But, in the act of dating, in the act of finding a mate, one cannot ignore the "mating" aspect, if that is an aspect that is important to you.

It is important to me. I waited until marriage to have sex, and it was a mistake. We were not 100% (or even 90%) compatible. I wanted to do things that she didn't want to do. She wanted to do people - I mean things - that I was not okay with.

So now, I'm... sort of okay with a relationship starting out with a foundation of sexual attraction. We can work on the rest as time goes by. If it doesn't happen, hey, at least we BOTH got to have sex with someone we were attracted to. Good on us. If it goes past there, great! We'll see how far. If it doesn't well... In the immortal words of Lonely Island, doesn't matter, had sex.

DashboardMadonna posted 11/14/2019 11:43 AM

Silverhopes-

Exactly this and what I am saying... we are approached by predators...the scum in the toilet. Not what I want to take home. Lol So much so, that it is hard to differentiate the well-meaning from these sickos.

Men dont seem to understand that women have to scope their surroundings like a deer in the woods, once the sun sets. Walking through a parkinglot and approached by some skeevy man waiting to pounce...believing that compliments will make us swoon in said darkness...

Trdd posted 11/14/2019 12:48 PM

I think the notion that men just want sex and it is somehow only about the physical is mostly wrong. My belief is that sex is far too entwined with thoughts and emotions to separate those out for most people. Men included.

It might be ego, power, desirability, love, intimacy.... but something else beyond the orgasm is at work for most people, most of the time. Some of us lack enough self awareness that we fail to even know what it is.

hikingout posted 11/14/2019 13:07 PM

Agree, TRDD,

I think the notion that men just want sex and it is somehow only about the physical is mostly wrong. My belief is that sex is far too entwined with thoughts and emotions to separate those out for most people. Men included.

I will use my BH as an example, but I have heard many of them say the same thing here. My H knows I would have sex with him about any time he wanted. But, he knows if it was a daily occurrence he would have to accept that sometimes I am just not going to have an orgasm, or even try to. I might have when we were younger, first married - heck I think we pretty much both had to have it at least daily the first couple years of marriage. What he wants is everything, the whole quality session - he wants the enthusiasm, variety, all the things that take more time, etc.

If it was just about an orgasm for him, he could do that any time he wants. He probably still does, I am probably just not in the room at the time.

It might be ego, power, desirability, love, intimacy.... but something else beyond the orgasm is at work for most people, most of the time. Some of us lack enough self awareness that we fail to even know what it is.

Well said and I believe it to be very true.

If you don't know me, then I'm just a random body with holes for you to use. I find that pretty revolting.

It's funny, shows how different we all are, because what you find revolting, I find very attractive. What I'd probably draw as a parallel for me would be a woman finding me attractive for my bank account, that's "revolting" to me. But a woman desiring me just for sex, or just for my body? That's a bit of a boyhood fantasy.

Again, this to me is about scarcity. Women encounter men who would do this about any time. I don't think the men who would agree are all creepy/predatory per se, just some men are not all that discerning. Some are predatory like described.

I imagine some men experience this and it isn't a scarcity for them, it's not really that hard to find women who are also not all that discerning. Apps like Tinder are popular for a reason. But they grow to find the same thing that women would find - that gets hollow and old. They aren't the quality people that they can build something with, and that can leave them just as lonely. Humans are wired to want connection. And, now that you have been married for years, RIO, I think if you were to find yourself single, you would get very tired of the non-discerning. You would soon be looking to share your life with someone again, because that would become your scarcity. They don't say the grass is greener for nothing.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:08 PM, November 14th (Thursday)]

20yrsagoBS posted 11/14/2019 13:18 PM

When my WH wants to have sex with me, he calls it a “need”.

I had my children, no plans to reproduce.

So, for me, there is no need.

WH and I argue about this. His needs versus my desire. Sorry, but I do not find someone who wants to put his penis in some skank, so she continues to listen to his bellyaching as sexually attractive. It’s desperate and pathetic. It’s not like his lovemaking improves with his extra practice. The adultery is a mood killer, certainly. I am content to proceed with my life without being sexually desirable. I have an amazing brain, am strong, funny, and very interesting.

Sal1995 posted 11/14/2019 13:47 PM

Reading the Wayward forum can be very illuminating. Until I became a BH and got involved with this site, I honestly had no idea that people were addicted to physical contact with and attention from other persons, the way many others are addicted to nicotine or caffeine or alcohol. But apparently many can only stay faithful to spouses or long-term partners by "white-knuckling" it if there's someone else out there who is willing to give them NSA sex and attention. Even if the spouse or partner gives them plenty of both, or is willing to do so. And even if they honestly love their spouse and are otherwise terrified at the thought of losing them. Crazy stuff.

There was a comment earlier about the "scarcity" of sex or something to that effect. I don't see that at all. From what I can tell, almost everyone has at least one sexual partner, and there are more than 7 billion of us walking around, each created by the same biological process. Sex seems unique in that it is something that is so abundant and common, yet treated as a rare, precious resource.

But to stick with 20yr's original post, I don't get the need to be desired sexually by anyone other than your spouse, either. I wouldn't want to be a turn off to anyone else (who would?), but actually desired in a sexual way when I'm already making a life someone I love? Nah, don't get it at all.

I wonder sometimes if the real addiction isn't to people so much as it is to drama and an escape from the mundane. If so, my large family and crazy high-stress profession (and of course, learning to survive infidelity) fill my drama bucket to overflowing, so it's hard to relate to someone who feels the constant need to fill theirs with other person's attention, flattery, and sexual favors.

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 1:47 PM, November 14th (Thursday)]

hikingout posted 11/14/2019 13:49 PM

I don't think anyone could blame you for feeling that way, 20yrs. The question seemed more open ended than that.

The only thing I would wonder maybe as a woman - if you don't want sexual intimacy with your husband (and that would be totally understandable), won't you miss it yourself? I feel like I would want to have that full on intimate relationship again, but I can fully realize that I didn't have my security and trust smashed to smithereens.

I ask more because I think it's very sad what we as WS take from our BS. I root for a BS to reclaim their own power and live the life they want to. I realize that is overly altruistic though, not everyone is in a desirable position to divorce or a WS who is worthy of R so I am certain there are times where some have to resign themselves until there is a better time. I am not trying to be judgmental or presumptuous with my questions, more if it's something you will miss or do want I truly want for you to still be able to find that.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:57 PM, November 14th (Thursday)]

PSTI posted 11/14/2019 13:53 PM

20yrsago, I think of sex as a need, but I recognize that varies from person to person. It's more important to some than others.

RIO- I guess the dysphoria here is that I like and enjoy casual sex. But even with casual sex, I still want to be seen for myself.

Of course you can lie and change your personality! Similarly, you could change your body with enough effort to at least some extent. But neither of those bits are the part of you that is authentically you. The person you are when no one else is watching. It feels like a straw man argument to say that one is you and the other is not. You can change whatever you want about yourself but if you're doing the fake personality or the changed appearance, you're still being one dimensional.

I don't need to love or be loved by everyone I have sex with. I wouldn't even want that, because I like having a variety of sexual partners. But at the end of the day, I want to know that the other person wants to have sex with ME, not just any wet hole. I am not a walking sex toy; I'm a human being, and I want to be seen as such.

I honestly think there is a degree of sociopathy if you literally see people as interchangeable walking holes to fuck or cocks to ride. At the end of the day, they're still people. I don't think this is just a guy thing at all, because it's not about casual sex. Casual sex can still be very authentic. Hell, I've had ONS with people on Craigslist and that's about as casual as it gets.

If I just wanted orgasms, I'd masturbate. But this isn't an intimacy issue so much as an authenticity issue, I think.

Are you really happy pretending to be someone you're not just to get laid? That feels okay, ethically?