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BS agency during the infidelity...

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DIFM posted 12/4/2019 14:26 PM

I think most get the point.

WornDown posted 12/4/2019 14:28 PM

You cannot exercise agency about a thing that you are not aware of.

Agency is the power to intervene or act on your own behalf. When your spouse is cheating on you, you can't choose or not choose to do anything because you have no knowledge that it exists. You cannot or would not exercise your agency because your WS has successfully and fraudulently kept you disconnected from that reality. There is a thing you would otherwise exercise agency over, but you can't because you are unaware it exists.

Again, this is true of anything.

You buy a used car and the transmission dies a week later. Did you know that was going to happen? Did anyone? No? Yes? So....because you didn't know the transmission was going to suddenly die, but bought the car...You didn't have any agency over the purchase?

You make the choice to take the scenic route home, but you hit a deer on the way home. Did you know you were going to do that? Did you lose agency because you you were not aware of that happening? Of course not.

You go through an intersection and someone runs a red light and t-bones you? Did you know they were going to run the red light? Of course not. Did they take away your "agency?" No, they totaled your car.


How can you have the power of intervention or action taking over things that you are unaware of?

You can't.

That's called life.

Shit happens to people every day that they have no control over.

WornDown posted 12/4/2019 14:30 PM

but the WS has big leverage when the BS cares about keeping things together more than the WS.

Why does the WS "have leverage?"

Because the BS CHOOSES to be more invested in the marriage than the WS - even in the face of known infidelity (in your example).

Justgetitoverwith posted 12/4/2019 14:46 PM

Turning into a bit of a strange argument, but at its basic, in my mind, yes, my agency (to make my own decisions) was affected by his infidelity. Of course I was still free to choose whatever I wanted, but those choices were heavily influenced by what I knew.

And much as I love my kids, if I'd have known about the long EA turned PA, I wouldn't have been engaged to him, and would have moved to join my family (parents and siblings) abroad. Therefore no marriage, no following him around the country for his job, no kids, no house, turning down and giving up jobs to enable his all important exciting career, therefore affecting personal finances in a big way, etc.

Yes, my agency was restricted by lack of knowledge. Yes, life would be very different if I had had that knowledge 20 years ago.

DIFM posted 12/4/2019 14:46 PM

You buy a used car and the transmission dies a week later. Did you know that was going to happen? Did anyone? No? Yes? So....because you didn't know the transmission was going to suddenly die, but bought the car...You didn't have any agency over the purchase?

Of course you have agency. You know you are buying an old car and you are taking a risk and you accept that risk. You very much have agency. Here is the car. See it. Drive it. Make your own choice.

In infidelity, the BS does not have any knowledge of anything. None. Zero. Knowing you are going to buy a car is is nothing like not knowing your WS is cheating and not doing anything because you have no idea you need to do something.

This is not a manipulation of a word to bend it to mean what it does not. There would be no need or benefit in this thread to do that. The point remains the same, regardless of the nomenclature.

The point being, during infidelity, the cheater fraud and fact manipulation prevents the betrayed from making critically important and life affecting decisions. I'll leave it at that. Call it what you will.

[This message edited by DIFM at 2:48 PM, December 4th (Wednesday)]

WornDown posted 12/4/2019 16:00 PM

Of course you have agency. You know you are buying an old car and you are taking a risk and you accept that risk. You very much have agency. Here is the car. See it. Drive it. Make your own choice.

In infidelity, the BS does not have any knowledge of anything. None. Zero. Knowing you are going to buy a car is is nothing like not knowing your WS is cheating and not doing anything because you have no idea you need to do something.

Please.

When we get married we know a lot (most? half?) of marriages end in divorce. You still took the risk.

Life is about risk. Life is about making choices and not knowing what the outcome of those choices will be.

Blaming choices you make that turn out badly because someone lied to you, or shit just happened, doesn't mean you lost agency.

IMO, saying one "lost agency" is just a victim mentality. Woe is me! I have no control! I can do nothing!

Yes, you do have control. You don't have control over what others do, but you do have control over what you do/choose to do from here on out (with respect to said person).

Listening to people who say they can't leave a cheater because divorce would hurt the kids is in the same vein - they can leave, and it may be difficult to do so, but they are still choosing not to do it. (These folks need help to overcome the fear that is holding them back)

HopefulTelephone posted 12/4/2019 17:36 PM

shrug, decided against arguing this. Later.

[This message edited by HopefulTelephone at 5:47 PM, December 4th (Wednesday)]

EllieKMAS posted 12/4/2019 18:54 PM

DIFM I totally get what you're saying.

OK, so here's the thing. If I am going to invest $1,000.00 of my hard earned money in a stock, you know what I will do? I will research that stock. I'll research the company. I will call my financial advisor and ask for their opinion. I will do what is within my power to do to mitigate the risk I know I am taking.

Likewise with buying an old car. I will pop the hood and see if anything look amiss. I will test drive it. I will bring my mechanic buddy with me and ask for his expert opinion. Again - I will do what I can to mitigate the risks inherent in buying an older vehicle.

Do I have agency (free will) in these scenarios to buy/invest or not? Absolutely. But I also have the power and the control in my own hands to make an educated decision.

Being cheated on doesn't take away your ability to make a choice, you're right. But it does remove your ability to make an educated choice for yourself about your own reality.

Bringing the train back around, let's say that a couple is going to buy a house together. Wife is cheating on her husband with another guy and is planning on leaving him soon. Yes there is inherent risk involved for the husband (or anyone) in signing on the dotted line, but without having the knowledge of his wife's infidelity, he is signing that with a huge risk that has been deliberately kept from him and that may not be acceptable to him.

If you want to go strictly by textbook definition, of course no one can remove one's agency. So pick a different word, but infidelity absolutely hinders one's ability to make complete and educated decisions about their life. I fail to see what is so hard to understand about that.

deephurt posted 12/4/2019 20:21 PM

I canít say that I care if the definition is being used properly or not but I completely understand what you are saying DIFM and I agree. Itís one of the most difficult aspects to accept. Not having the reality of your life to make the decisions you would make had you known the real truth.

Twiggy posted 12/4/2019 20:45 PM

There are lemon laws. Too bad the law no longer protects marriages in most states

Striver posted 12/4/2019 20:45 PM

WornDown,

This is specifically about agency during the A. Not at other times.

If Ww is cheating while trying to get pregnant with BH, there is going to be doubt as to the father. Loss of agency for BH there. Again this is mid A so BH does not know.

cocoplus5nuts posted 12/4/2019 20:54 PM

how do you know that the decision you made was the one you would have made if you'd had the additional info of their infidelity?


How do you know you wouldn't make a different decision on anything if you had additional information? You don't because you didn't have that info. There's always risk in making any decision. You can't go back and you can't know what decision you would've made under different circumstances.

I am loathe to say that anyone can or does take away my agency. I always have the freedom to make a decision and act on it. I made a decision then based on the info I had. I have new info now. I can make another decision now.

I read about agency in terms of philosophy, sociology, and psychology. Nothing I read said that lying or malicious manipulation take away one's agency. We are always being manipulated and manipulating. That's how we get what we want. It's not necessarily wrong.

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