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WS/fWS Questions for BS's--Part 1?

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Cephastion posted 12/15/2019 07:38 AM

BraveSirRobin

Brave,brave,brave,BRAVE Sir Robin!

Please tell that husband of yours to give you a strong, warm but platonic appreciative hug on my behalf and on behalf of my children.

I affirm what you have said here even though I still don't have a damn clue what other's mean by saying that expectations or rights are evil or unreasonable to have.

Also, I wasn't fully sure of what I was really wanting out of all of this even myself until it unfolded.

I am alone. No adult/peer level company hardly at all except online. That is not healthy for me or for my kids.

I wanted people to ask and engage and help me sort thru what I was wanting and feeling and I wanted reformed waywards to be the ones that I sorted that process of figuring out what it was that I wanted. Is that so unreasonable of a thing to want or to "expect"???

If a robber makes other people feel unsafe, is it so evil to want to see if they are willing to make people in the general public feel safer?

Did I inflame or insult robbers or waywards on here?

I wanted to feel safe and respected and like there were in fact respectful loving reformed waywards that could be dialouged with without having to feel threatened or hated for simply not being a wayward myself.

I didn't want to be a part of just "the betrayed" club. I didn't want to polarize. I'm funny like that. I don't stay in my own box like a good little minion or bobble-head yes-man. I take risks. I am the white guy that would have offered my seat to the afro-americans on the bus in the civil rights movement just to show others that it can and should be done without having to be asked or forced by the government. I cry out against cliques and categories usually. I try to erase those political lines and boundaries or get people to cross over them to the people on the other side.

And that very often makes me a target.

I don't know what happened here, though. I'm still confused as hell about it frankly.

Even if all the evil-assuming people on here were right about me being so sick and wrong for asking for others to ask questions and engage each other... why post on my thread to say that I have no rights for me or my thread or forum rules about threads and their authors to be respected??

Wouldn't it be more helpful to do for me and my sick misguided soul and twisted, warped, selfish perspective to be engaged in a more understanding and well-explained way like I used to see others reformed waywards do for newb waywards in the wayward forum?

Or is that an unreasonable "expectation" of mine as well to be treated as respectfully (though myself a non-wayward) by reformed/remorseful waywards as they would treat other still-"foggy" (and fucked up in the head) waywards?

Then again, maybe it's a warzone over there in the wayward forum of remorseful v. unremorseful over the last year or so...I don't know. Maybe me and my poor thread got the same treatment that happens over there to people who aren't wearing the right team jersey or military uniform or insignia.

Whatever the case is, I expected support on my own damn thread and for my accusers to explain what it was that I am guilty of and actually being accused of.

Thank you for showing how it's done, BraveSirRobin.

No other person can truly fill Deeply Scared's shoes... and even by a much higher standard by my reckoning, I can't fill Christ's shoes either... but that doesn't mean that we can't try or make certain heroes or examples a pattern for how some of us should interact or respond or behave towards one another and all of our fellow men and women.

He crossed a lot of lines to reach out and get asked a hell of a lot of questions from "waywards" in order for Himself and others to ALL be more fully known and better understood by one another as well, as I recall.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 7:41 AM, December 15th (Sunday)]

Cephastion posted 12/15/2019 07:56 AM

From what you've written, you've been let down by just about everyone in your life. I can imagine that makes it hard to ask for help or support. What do you need this morning? How can we help you?--Wifehad5

An actual question...even if it's not from a wayward...thank you.

For one thing, I would like to understand why people feel that I have no rights or right to "expectations" being fulfilled which are all mutually agreed upon rules,rights, and expectations. It's not just here on this thread. It's EVERYWHERE this last year in particular. And people having that attitude or mindset seems very entitled, hypocritical and unremorseful-waywardish to me..or just plain SELFISH to put it in my own way of thinking.

Secondly, I would like to hear some of the pro's and con's of going more public with my wife's username on this website.

I have not done so partly because it is my wife's username and not my own. I don't know where her "rights" there begin and end with being my wife and the one who "qualified me" to be a part of this club and infidelity support website... and also I didn't want her to be any more gunshy than she already is about posting on here.

But I do feel abandoned by much more than just her and 3 of my 5 children.

I do feel let down by humanity and the world in general. I accept some of that as a part of living in this world and also particularly for being an outspoken Christian in my faith. But I still wish for someone to come alongside me and at the very least to tell me what I'm charged with or accused of and then to have perhaps some semblance of support or help or a "fair trial" even if I am just as guilty as hell of all manner of evil--albeit unknowingly.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 7:57 AM, December 15th (Sunday)]

Cephastion posted 12/15/2019 08:00 AM

btw, for the record, this obviously also comes across as a kind of implied question to me:

When you came and said that you needed to be asked questions by WS so that we can learn things and show remorse, what I saw was "prove remorse," like it was a demand. But what I think I saw when rereading your responses (and it took several reads, tbh) is that you need to feel what I just described. Your WW has taken all the passcodes, the money, the support, and quite literally the power. You're sitting in darkness without the ability to buy your kid an ice cream. So you came here, which is a place you know and where you know you have experience and insight to offer, looking to both be comforted and to give comfort. And we didn't know that, so we wrote, "Thanks, but there are plenty of great BS insights here," and you felt rejected and rebuffed.--BraveSirRobin

Loukas also finally did something similar in his question to me but by that time I was literally feeling suicidal, so I didn't feel like I could safely reengage with him at the time.

I'm not saying that Loukas personally or intentionally made me feel like wanting to commit suicide. I'm saying that this solitary confinement and deafness and abandonment and bullying and abuse of almost all of the people in my real life are helping me to feel like that. And having another straw and another straw and another straw placed against my will on that camel's fucking overwhelmed broken back wasn't something that I could really deal with at that time.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 8:04 AM, December 15th (Sunday)]

cocoplus5nuts posted 12/15/2019 08:03 AM

Ceph, I'm not saying you are wrong. I am not saying you have no rights. What I am saying, that you seem to refuse to accept, is that the fact is that no one owes you anything. I get that you have a huge sense of obligation. That is yours, though. That is not anyone else's. Your sense of obligation and entitlement is a human construct. I don't know how else to explain that.

You have been told that people are not attacking you in their responses. Yet, you continue to take their comments as personal attacks. Can you see that that is your interpretation and not the intent of the commenter? When you start to feel attacked, stop, take a deep breath, think for a bit, maybe write down your initial response in a notebook and let it sit for a while. Don't knee jerk react to what you perceive as attacks. We are all just trying to help you pull yourself out of this pain.

The first step to that is to stop hanging your well-being on what other people do. You cannot control other people. You can only control yourself and your actions. If someone is toxic, cut them out. Don't continue to subject yourself to their toxicity, thereby allowing them to abuse you.

I think you could greatly benefit from intensive trauma counseling. You have been subjected to horrendous abuse. One doesn't just get over that. If you can't get in person therapy, maybe you can find something online. There are several virtual options these days, online, phone, video chat. Maybe there's a 12 step support group in your area. They are usually free.

Alanon is a good one. Obviously, it's for loved ones of alcoholics, but anyone can go to an open meeting. You might get something out of it. They talk a lot about letting go of your sense of control.

still-living posted 12/15/2019 08:07 AM

Cephastion,

I like your idea but it is proven not self-sustaining.

I recommend SI pins a "WS questions for reconciled BS's" thread in ICR. This might be a great social service.

The WS population, in general, is less proactive. BS's are feverishly here asking questions attempting to regain cognitive consonance, while a WS's numbing world has been in front of them the whole time. Plus, WS's receive 2x4's, and self reflection generates more pain. I'm speaking in general terms because we are speaking of masses. Adding to this, reconciled BS's tend to drift away.

I like your idea however. A pinned "WS question for reconciled BS" thread, supporting a minority, would allow WSs to learn more efficiently especially if they are merely reacting to the demands of their BS, are less proactive, and/or are not yet looking into the mirror. They will see how a truly remorseful WS is acting. I suspect a WS will pay more attention to how a truly remorseful WS is acting, at least initially, than how a BS is feeling. I added "in reconciliation" to minimize mean spirited attacks and resultant admin burden.

Just saying.

S-L


Cephastion posted 12/15/2019 08:11 AM

I think you could greatly benefit from intensive trauma counseling.

On this we agree.

Hard to do without 5 bucks in my account.

Even with the additional money that I found in other accounts, I'm still just now realizing that we owe more in the "life support basics" (rent, electric bill, phone/internet bill, driver's liability insurance etc.) than we have resources to pay with, and our living expenses are bottom of the barrel in some areas without simply being homeless.

I don't really want to do stuff like sell off my son's 1985 4 wheeler, for example even though we technically could.

It's a mess that I just only now realized we were in because my wife kept all of this from me.

Cephastion posted 12/15/2019 08:27 AM

A pinned "WS question for reconciled BS" thread, supporting a minority, would allow WSs to learn more efficiently especially if they are merely reacting to the demands of their BS, are less proactive, and/or are not yet looking into the mirror. They will see how a truly remorseful WS is acting. I suspect a WS will pay more attention to how a truly remorseful WS is acting, at least initially, than how a BS is feeling. I added "in reconciliation" to minimize mean spirited attacks and resultant admin burden.--StillLiving

(bold emphasis added by me)

EXACTLY.

Less threatening. Less polarizing. Not as easy to dismiss because "BS's can't relate to me (WS's) or just want to attack" excuses.

And it wouldn't hurt a newb BS to see what a truly remorseful WS looks and sounds and acts like with other BS's either.

It could even show a JFO BS who on SI is a safe and interactive former wayward that they could interact with and show them what the different stages of coming out of the fog might look like near the end of that process without having to wade through trigger happy minefields of the wayward forum.

I know for example, that if I have a question for a wayward, I can ask HikingOut or likely Mrs. Wallloped and not feel that they are being totally defensive or attacked (like I do). They are relatively "safe" for me to talk with when I'm feeling the way that I did 2 days ago. But I've been here for a few years. I had to find out about them after a good long time of reading. I used to interact with other waywards who weren't even out of their fog yet but they weren't defensive with me and didn't make me feel attacked or threatened by their mindset. FF4152 is just one such example. And as far as I know he's still considered a foggy, unremorseful wayward by many members on here although that might not be the case since I last "looked".

Cephastion posted 12/15/2019 08:33 AM

Ceph, I'm not saying you are wrong. I am not saying you have no rights. What I am saying, that you seem to refuse to accept, is that the fact is that no one owes you anything.--Cocoplus5nuts

These statements are a direct contradiction of one another.

Rights mean that a person is owed something from other people.

That's what rights are.

I have the right to demand that my wife not fuck other men and abandon the family and lie to me while singlehandedly trainwrecking the finances and say she's a victim of emotional abuse without being willing for her to explain such charges and madness and violations of our marriage agreement and the norms of common decency for example.

People have the right to expect their fellow citizens to respect the laws of their country for the most part.

My children should have the right to have food and water and shelter and comfort and relative support and safety for example.

I owe my children that.

You and others on SI owe me and everyone else on here to be relatively rule-respecting and to use understandable English grammar and rational typing of sentences for the most part when you or any of us respond on SI.

A policeman owes me that he will do his job and what everyone's tax money is paying him to do.

My kids owe me a certain amount of compliance and respect while I am providing for them (and preferably after that as well, really).

If I start a thread asking for questions and answers and interaction about why those thread-based interactions aren't more typical on SI, then don't I have a "right" to have the people posting on "my thread" to actually answer this or ask me questions instead of just telling me that I alone on SI have no right to have me or my thread respected because that's just an unreasonable "expectation"?

I thought there were still rules in effect on SI about people respecting the topics of threads and how original posters and their threads should be respected and dealt with.

Don't I have a right or a reasonable expectation to have me or my topic actually get responses rather than merely hijacked under my protests against such hijacking or redirecting bullying of theirs ...that no one has to do what I'm asking on my own damn thread...and with no explanations for their stance other than implying that I'm bullying people just for posting or for asking or for actually "expecting" people to play by the rules or show any respect or support because they simply don't fucking HAVE TO and I can't MAKE them???

[This message edited by Cephastion at 8:49 AM, December 15th (Sunday)]

WalkinOnEggshelz posted 12/15/2019 08:52 AM

Cephastion,

I am sorry that you feel attacked by me in any way shape or form. I have read and reread my post to multiple times to try and understand why you feel I have either said or insinuated that you have no rights.

I think itís my last sentence when I said what you were asking for was inappropriate. That sentence was in response to your initial request of

Part of my ambition here is also for WS/FWS's to demonstrate or exercise some empathy skills for ALL of our mutual benefit as well, btw.

As a BS, I could really actually stand to see for myself and also for my own WW to see some examples of other WS/FWS's doing this kind of thing across the WS/BS aisle in this direction instead of just more-often-than-not in the BS's asking the WS's direction only.

I truly wish you had opened with the struggles that you were experiencing and instead had asked for support in that regard because I donít think we would be having this conversation if you had. I feel certain that this community would have come together and provided you with the support that you were seeking.

The problem is, sometimes we donít know what it is we are looking for until we find it. Like so many threads, this one has taken turns and evolved into something different than what may have been the original intention. I think thatís a good thing.

I meant it when I told you I was sorry for your pain. My wish for you is to heal and find the strength within yourself to live a happy life. That strength is there inside you, but only you can nurture it.

As far as expectations go, they arenít necessarily a bad thing. We can have expectations of others provided we are clear on what those expectations are. When we arenít clear of our expectations they form into resentment and anger. Unfortunately sometimes that means demonstrating a level of vulnerability we arenít ready to share.

Cephastion posted 12/15/2019 08:59 AM

Maybe there's a 12 step support group in your area. They are usually free.

Alanon is a good one. Obviously, it's for loved ones of alcoholics, but anyone can go to an open meeting. You might get something out of it. They talk a lot about letting go of your sense of control.--Cocoplus5nuts

Maybe this is a good idea here. I've only been drunk once in my life and it was 2 years ago at my wife's insistence, actually. How ironic that it was because she wanted to override my own sense of control over my own damn self!!

Do they help with that kind of letting go of control?? (I'm just poking fun at the irony of this and not trying to mock you or alanon in rhetorically asking that, btw)

Anyway, maybe that would be a good way to get a fair trial in all of this without paying $50-$150 an hour that I don't have right now.

As much as I am frustrated with what seems like a crazy thing to believe in as you seem to be telling me that you and others seem to believe about rights and expectations and control and obligations, I do appreciate your tone and attempts to answer and respond respectfully with me about this stuff.

Thank you.

Even if you seem to be very self-contradictory I still thank you for your interactions here with me today.

Cephastion posted 12/15/2019 09:29 AM

You have posed a question to begin a thread. You have received replies from some WS as to why they would not be comfortable with that request. You then dared them to do so. They again, have given you explanation as to why it may not be something of interest. Rather than accepting this, you brought DeeplyScared in as a pawn in your argument.--WOES

I double-dog-dared anyone to be so loving or supportive or selfless, yes.

The expression is a childish one on my part. That was meant to imply a kind of playfulness on my part. Not a hate-crime.

I have been a fairly vocal and I think very positive minded supportive poster here on SI for a little while now at least.

I post Muppets and stuffed giraffes and songs about grief and loss and pain.

When I ask a question and people refuse to answer and instead they attack me for merely asking, then I want and "expect" an explanation for such an attitude or reaction from my seeming attacker.

That is called NORMAL in my book.

And I didn't use Deeply Scared as a "pawn"! I cited her and her EXAMPLE. I could have done the same with my own mother's kindness. If that's a weapon or me attacking you or others or using them as "pawns" in my "argument" that we could be more loving and kind and supportive to each other across the lines and WS/BS polarized borders on SI, then I think someone is really having a perception problem and I can't imagine a "good SI citizen" actually seeing and calling that out as a BAD thing!

I didn't then or now understand the so-called WS "explanations" that I was given as to why I'm wrong for what I'm after in all of this on here.

If a WS gets on my thread and posts saying that I don't have the right for them to "have to post" on my thread, that just seems like crazy talk to me. That makes no damn sense to me whatsoever. No one has to post on anyone's thread at all, ever really. If I wanted to "make someone" post to a thread of mine, then I guess I could name the person in the thread title or I could "make" a mod come by saying "mod please" or break the rules like a total troll or something like that. But I'm not a mod or admin or a guide or webmaster. I didn't make anyone do anything here. I asked a question that asked for questions. Literally. And instead of questions or even answers for the most part (with some exceptions but not from WS's mostly) all I got was defensiveness and implied accusations and totally irrational sounding stuff instead.

If a man is on fire in the fucking fire station and asks for some water from the firemen standing all around to help put the fire out, then just the fact that they refuse is a kind of "attack" or insult since that's what the "expectation" of what we are all here for is actually supposed to be all about!

Is that so damn unreasonable to "expect"?

Is there really ANY good reason for a fireman (particularly a fireman who used to be a convicted arsonist) to just refuse and add gasoline to the fire... or even just a stubborn, silent, conscious idleness of endorsement of ongoing flames to continue uncontested?

Maybe not on "my terms" such as a thread that I asked a question requesting others to ask questions on, but still...the fire is there and the question was there and the poster is a real person that has real needs.

We all have real needs in fact. WS and BS and Madhatters alike.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 9:37 AM, December 15th (Sunday)]

HoldingTogether posted 12/15/2019 09:37 AM

Cephastion,

Let me try and clarify something about expectations... Sure you have a right to absolutely any expectations that you like.

What you donít have a right to is having those expectations fulfilled by other people.

Other people are autonomous human beings with their own thoughts and fears and feelings and problems and expectations. And they are going to go on running around doing their own fucking thing regardless of whatever it is you do or do not expect from them.

I think what people are trying to tell you is that itís fine for you to go on having expectations, and itís fine for you to be disappointed when people donít always live up to your expectations... hell sometimes its even appropriate to be fucking pissed of when people donít live up to your expectations....

But it isnít always helpful or healthy to take it so personally when people donít live up to your expectations. Or to keep hammering away at them trying to cajole or convince or bully or guilt or force them into living up to your expectations. That shit is eventually going to lead you to a whole world of unhappiness.

There is a saying in AA that I have really come to appreciate:

ďExpectations are just resentments under construction.Ē

And I think that that resentment is where you are living right now. Which I fucking get man. Been there done that.

But at some point you gotta put down the shovel.

On a separate note:

The feeling I am picking up here is that what you are really looking for is some way to express how you are feeling to your WS to somehow make her understand your pain and frustration. But she isnít willing to hear it . And so, on some level, wether conscious or not, you are trying to find some avenue to express those feelings to any WS. I think this thread that you are proposing is an extension of that need.

But Iím here to tell you the good news brother! There are already 2 whole forums already here that can allow you to do just that! If you have some feelings you want to express. Some insights you wish to share? Post away in JFO or General. I guaran-fucking-tee that lots of WSí will read it. You donít need to wait for a thread where you get asked directly. Shit doesnít always need to be asked in the form of a question. This ainít Jeopardy.

All it takes is the willingness to put yourself out there... to allow yourself to be emotionally vulnerable.

Unless what you are really looking for is for people to pull all of those feelings out of you.
Which really isnít anyone elseís job. Not that you donít have a right to expect them to.

You just donít have a right to have that expectation fulfilled.

HT

MrsWalloped posted 12/15/2019 11:15 AM

Hi Cephastion.

Iím so sorry for what youíre going through. I can literally feel the pain dripping from your words and it must be so hard when you donít have people you can count on IRL to support you.

You mentioned me so I feel like itís okay for me to post this. I hope you know that you can always ask me anything. I get asked things a lot from many different people and I try my best not to be defensive and answer as best I can. I also think your idea is a really good one. Personally I donít know how many WSís would take advantage of it, and thereís a lot of good reasons why we wouldnít, but it would still be nice to have that option. I do think overall that more interaction is a good thing but I donít know if we can expect people to participate. People are people, right? They do what they want and what works for them.

Okay, this next part is going to sound selfish, but here goes. This is coming from my own personal situation. My husband came here because he found out about me and he was in tremendous pain and he was bewildered and confused and my BIL recommended SI to him as a place where he can get advice. And he found a community of people who welcomed him and supported him and helped him deal with me, his emotions and how to move forward. And maybe thatís true for many BSís. They come here for support. WSís are a different animal. For me, I came here later. My husband suggested I come here because he thought it might be good for me. So I came here to learn and grow and become a safe and healthy partner for him. Thatís my primary focus. I want to be a better person, a better wife, and a better mother. But I am not here to make a BS feel supported, welcomed or respected. That sounds so selfish but Iím being honest. Itís nice if that happens and I try to do my part in that in the way I interact, but that not my goal. Iíve met many wonderful people here, both WSís and BSís, and we interact and Iíve learned so much from them and I hope I helped them in return. I try my best to answer questions in ICR because those questions challenge my thinking and give me an insight into what my husband may be going through and also because I feel like I want to help where I can. But my goal is about me, my husband, and our marriage. Does that make sense? And I feel like through my interaction, whether itís posting or responding or even just lurking Iím contributing to the site and to the WSís and BSís who post and working on me and my M at the same time.

I've been following some of the disagreements on this thread too. I hear you when you say what you need. Thereís a whole community of people here who care about you and want to support you. I hope Iím not misinterpreting what Iíve read but I want to point out that agreeing with you on all things is not the same thing as being supportive (Iím not saying thatís what you said). 2x4ís are also support when properly given. And disagreeing and a 2x4 can feel like youíre not being supported or respected. Yet sometimes you get much more out of that 2x4 and different POV than anything else. But just because they disagree with something youíve said doesnít mean they donít care. Meaning and intent are sometimes hard to figure out when writing instead of talking. I think you should know that from what Iíve seen, people care about you and are here to support you. Some people wonít be proactive about it, but theyíre here anyway.

Please look after yourself.

Pippin posted 12/15/2019 12:08 PM

Cephastion, I think what happened to you over the past few days was this. You were in a very dark place. You were searching for things that helped you in the past when you felt like that. SI helped you in the past when you were in a very dark place, especially when your old friend listened to you. You thought that maybe other people like your old friend could do the same, so you went right to that idea, without realizing or understanding the steps you skipped to get there. Then what you needed got lost in the weeds.

I often can't describe or understand my feelings when I'm in a very dark place and the best thing in the world is when someone puts their arm around me, listens to all of the confused thing coming out of my mouth, and sets aside their ideas and reactions to try to help me make sense of it, all the time telling me that I'm loved and I'm going to be OK and I'm worth their time and attention. It's very hard to get people to do that when they don't understand that's what you need.

I've learned to say "I feel so confused and unhappy right now" or "I feel misunderstood and desperately afraid right now." When you look for help from other people, using those words instead of asking for specific actions from them might help give you more of what you need.

I told you that I have self-imposed limits on SI for my own sake, so I'm not going to be the WW that reaches out every now and then or listens to you like she did. But I think that although you landed on the idea of the thread, what you need is something anyone could provide. You seem like such a genuinely nice guy, finding humor where you can, hoping and believing that people can and will be good to you. You seem generous and kind. I think that there will be lots of people who want to help you, when they know what you are asking for.

And I see your signature. The love you felt from your old friend was God's love. All love is God's love. It was not even close to how much God loves you. I know it is easier to feel God's love through other people, and I struggle myself with feeling it in a personal, close and profound way, especially when I'm struggling. But it might help to be sure to pray daily, to work on feeling God's love when you are stronger, so you are able to feel it more easily when you really need it.

And now I'll ask you a question! since I know that's what you want deep down! What on this thread has been the most helpful to you? What do you need more of?

Cephastion posted 12/15/2019 12:12 PM

2x4ís are also support when properly given. And disagreeing and a 2x4 can feel like youíre not being supported or respected. Yet sometimes you get much more out of that 2x4 and different POV than anything else. But just because they disagree with something youíve said doesnít mean they donít care.--Mrs. Walloped

I never said or suggested otherwise.

Let me explain my dilemma this way. I have seen people in real life and on film get bullied by everyone that is "in the know" besides the newb or outsider knowing or seeing something that is a perception of weakness or a thing to be shamed or bullied over.

A nervous lady coming out of the ladies' room unknowingly having a paper trail-tail behind her stuck to her shoe for example.

The loving thing isn't to just make fun of her or her innocent ignorance of what "baggage" she's unwittingly dragging along behind her.

The loving thing to do is to politely point it out in a way that clearly identifies the issue without shaming or blaming her needlessly.

If it's something that she simply cannot see like something stuck in her teeth, then the loving thing to do is to whisper to her what you are seeing and help her until the thing is dealt with...if she's willing to hear and asks for help.

Just being pissed off or laughing at her for not seeing what you think that you see is off or wrong isn't helpful to anyone...and just letting a lady unknowingly go around with her slip showing against her d'ruthers or with something stuck in her teeth unwittingly isn't polite if she's asking for help to get it identified and unstuck and expelled.

Accusing her of not being willing to hear another POV just because she doesn't see her own back or inside of her own mouth without help or a mirror is a false accusation unless she truly refuses to hear a person out.

But talking in Swahili doesn't help me to understand better. Neither does simply repeating the same unintelligible Swahili phrase louder and more emphatically and then blaming the English-only hearer for not being willing to listen.

Silence and narcissistic discarding or abandonment or bullying of a person isn't usually all that helpful to building trust and understanding between differing parties and perspectives either.

You at least are being sweet and respectfully trying to help me in this matter.

Even you yourself and many others have said that the perspectives and motives of the average WS's on here are markedly different than those same motives and mindsets and perspectives of the average BS.

But doesn't that just serve to help make my case for the two "sides" to help one another understand one another better? You seemed to almost say as much yourself, if I understood you correctly with this:

I also think your idea is a really good one. Personally I donít know how many WSís would take advantage of it, and thereís a lot of good reasons why we wouldnít, but it would still be nice to have that option. I do think overall that more interaction is a good thing...

Thank you for your input here. Not because you think I have a good idea...but because you honored the topic and me as a person wanting respectful dialogue instead of silence or seemingly groundless, ridiculous accusations without backing them up or questioning yourself for why you had such a feeling of being attacked or wrongfully manipulated from me.

Something that I think most people in this life (particularly waywards) don't realize (at least in my strong opinion) is that this is part of the problem:

For me, I came here later. My husband suggested I come here because he thought it might be good for me. So I came here to learn and grow and become a safe and healthy partner for him. Thatís my primary focus. I want to be a better person, a better wife, and a better mother. But I am not here to make a BS feel supported, welcomed or respected. That sounds so selfish but Iím being honest. Itís nice if that happens and I try to do my part in that in the way I interact, but that not my goal.

On the one hand, I very much respect and appreciate the honesty from you in this. My only partly remorseful wife would likely say something very similar to this I believe. Now I am NOT saying that you, Mrs. Walloped are unremorseful when I said that about my own wife there. What I am saying is that I believe that your statement reflects a rather self-defeating mentality.

If a selfish person stays selfish instead of more selfless, then they won't change for what most of us call changing for the "better" or becoming truly safer or more trustworthy or faithful to be selfless and loving and true.

Consequently, it's very likely that your husband might want and say some of what I'm wanting and saying but not in terms or examples that you see clearly or that he can clearly express or see and say himself.

I didn't even know myself what I was exactly after with this thread of mine when I initially started if, after all.

And as I have dialogued and hit the roof over feeling offended and trying to be better understood, I have found that I even understand my own damn self and needs and wants even better than I did 3 days or so ago. I also think that I understand other people and their perceptions better now. Yours makes a good deal of sense to me.

Thank you for sharing.

I hope that you and others can see that wanting to help others people besides just yourself and your spouse and support them in spite of the fact that you and others don't feel that anyone else has a right to expect support or encouragement or any kind of restitution from a wayward...I hope that you can see that that mentality is very limiting to the exercise of stretching or challenging yourself...and even potentially limiting to even your spouse's perspectives somewhat, as well.

I don't think you are actually like this, to be honest. But since you said you think and are motivated this way, I challenge that motive as being what you called it yourself. Selfish. And I think that such a mentality doesn't actually help the BS of a WS nearly as effectively as a WS might think.

There is a lot of value in giving without expecting to receive anything in return, in my opinion. Generosity enlarges the soul and gives light and brightness to the eyes and heart of a person, no matter what category they happen to be in.

Ebenezer Scrooge was never any hero of mine...well...maybe the remorseful version is after a fashion...but I actually like to get to actually SEE him put his money where his supposedly remorseful mouth is EVERYTIME Christmas rolls around each year.

It's one of my favorite parts of the show, along with where he curses at himself for letting the love of his life just walk away without a fight or a sign of grief at the loss of her...

I watch that movie just about every year with my wife and children (when they are here, that is.)

Cephastion posted 12/15/2019 12:21 PM

And now I'll ask you a question! since I know that's what you want deep down! What on this thread has been the most helpful to you? What do you need more of?--Pippin

My absolute favorite experience ever on SI was the awesome privilege of working with Ohforanewme with others to help the lovely lady who is ManishDad's beloved wayward wife.

I can't tell you how much it meant to me. She even accepted my name change of her username to Mrs. Life!

I prayed and pulled for her and her husband along with people like Ohfor and Fareast and others...I tried to help keep her and them all intact as a family and to even help keep her alive when she was despairing of life and feeling like a failure and like giving up and all alone.

They are still a family. She is still alive and there for her son and husband and others to the best of my knowledge.

Nothing even touches it on here by comparison.

I got to share and support them in ways that are now prohibited by new rules.

I got to be a real help to them all to the best of my knowledge.

I got to be for them what I want for myself and family in turn.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 12:31 PM, December 15th (Sunday)]

Cephastion posted 12/15/2019 12:51 PM

Second and third place of my very favorite experiences so far also go to helping two other waywards on here, to be really honest.

In one case, I was able to help keep a suicide from happening and expose a child molestation situation, and in the other one I helped with support during a new first-ever baby coming into the wayward single mom's world.

Pippin posted 12/15/2019 12:55 PM

What did you do that was so helpful for her?

And - what was so wonderful about Ohfor?

Loukas posted 12/15/2019 13:01 PM

I think it says a lot about you, Ceph, that you most favourite moments here on SI are helping others. Thatís very Christian of you. Very kind, generous and selfless.

Have you allowed SI members to extend the same opportunities to you? I guess what Iím trying to say here is, let us help you. As hard as it my be, forget trying to help everyone else, be selfish, focus on you. Use us as a tool to help you personally in your darkness. Let us be to you, as you have been to others.

Cephastion posted 12/15/2019 13:02 PM

Ohfor...

I can't hardly begin to tell you how amazing and wonderful he was.

In my mind, he had much of the spirit that I was referring to with DS.

He reached out to Mrs. Life in a way that you had to see and read about.

But he was like that with others in need IRL as well.

Ohforanewme....................

I just can't.....................

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